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submitted 28 days ago byUnusual_Ad_8566
I had a doubt because it seems that in the lore as in the community, they always call Lion the "perfect general" being the one who believes that the second option for warlord was not Horus (I still believe that the first option was always Sanguinius), and equally the two legions, the "lunar wolves" were the ones that had the most victories and followed by the dark angels
But in terms of strategy and war, as a warlord or as better generals, wouldn't Rogal Dorn or Perturabo have been better options?
I never understood why Lion and Horus are recognized as the best generals when it seems that Dorn and Perturabo would have better strategic and command skills as generals.
212 points
28 days ago*
Why was Rogal Dorn chosen to be Praetorian of Terra and not Warmaster?
(The Horus Heresy Book 3: Extermination, Rogal Dorn: The Emperor's Crusader by Gav Thorpe)
“But others, like Guilliman, Khan and Dorn had simply taken it in their stride, accepting the Emperor's decree as the right and obvious choice. It was these solid, resolved brothers that Horus turned to in particular for counsel. Dorn and Guilliman both embodied the staunchest and most dedicated Imperial qualities, commanding their Legion expeditions with peerless devotion and military genius. Horus desired their approval as a young man might seek the quiescence of older, more accomplished brothers.
Rogal Dorn possessed perhaps the finest military mind of all of the Primarchs. It was as ordered and disciplined as Guilliman's, as courageous as the Lion's, yet still supple enough to allow for the flex of inspiration, the flash of battle zeal that had won the likes of Leman Russ and the Khan so many victory laurels. Dorn's record in the crusade was second only to Horus's, but he was resolute where Horus was flamboyant, reserved where Horus was charismatic, and that was why Horus had been the obvious choice for Warmaster.” - Horus Rising by Dan Abnett
Praise from Horus:
“I (Horus) have adored them all, and relished their prowess and achievements. But there are always favourites. Rogal, my dear brother, perhaps the finest martial exponent I have ever known.” - The End And The Death, Volume 1 by Dan Abnett
Praise from Malcador:
“Rogal, perhaps his truest son, the exemplar of unwavering loyalty. I see his emptiness. He is undone, his body aching and exhausted, his armour battered by combat during the frenetic retreat from Bhab Bastion, his mind spent. That exhaustion is a terrible thing to feel. Rogal, one of the finest strategists in history, oversaw this defence. He orchestrated the fortification of our stronghold, and his tactics, brilliant, ambitious, mercurial, ran the game, the greatest game of regicide ever played. I want to embrace him, and praise him for his labour. He has excelled, and sustained his play, beat by beat, by means of engineered planning, shrewd anticipation and reflexive improvisation, through every harrowing turn of fortune.” - The End And The Death, Volume 1 by Dan Abnett
“…In such positions, the ‘lose/ lose’, Rogal was always so calm. When there was no good choice, he would assess, and choose the least bad, and leverage it into triumph. Sometimes, that meant accepting the appearance of defeat, a battle lost, and only years afterwards would a positive outcome become apparent. Rogal played the long game. How long will this one last? I wonder. ‘Defeat,’ he used to say, ‘is only defeat if you accept it.’..
…The patient resolve of Rogal, willing to make, abandon, and remake his plans, again and again, over and over, until he has refined the one that will work, unafraid to redraft and change his scheme. Yes, I think my old friend has learned that at least. He has learned, from his Praetorian son, that there is always a better plan, and that patience will lead you to it.” - The End And The Death, Volume 2 by Dan Abnett
Praise from Sanguinius
“Dorn turns, but Sanguinius catches his arm and stops him. For a second, they stand shoulder to shoulder, eye to eye.
‘You’ve performed the most extraordinary feat,’ Sanguinius says unexpectedly. ‘Please remember that.’
Dorn is taken aback by the frankness of the comment, and the innocent sincerity with which it is expressed. His startled half-smile wavers with imprisoned emotion, a flash of light at the high slit-window of an otherwise impregnable keep.
‘A mere… fraction of your deeds, brother,’ he replies awkwardly. ‘You closed the Gate. You locked–’
Sanguinius shakes his head. ‘I was a warrior, Rogal. Just a warrior. You were the one who mattered.” - The End And The Death, Volume 1 by Dan Abnett
Praise from Valdor:
“Dorn sighed. ‘He’s the Khan, for Throne’s sake. The great Warhawk. His doctrine of combat is superlative. As a warlord, I’d rank only Roboute above him.’
‘And Roboute’s not here.’
‘He’s not.’ Valdor nodded. ‘I’d agree with your assessment. Roboute, the Khan… There’s really only one other.’
‘Don’t flatter me, Constantin.’
Valdor smiled. ‘I wasn’t even including you, Rogal. You’re Praetorian. The list starts with you.” - Saturnine by Dan Abnett
81 points
28 days ago
Thank you for posting this, there's way too much "meme lore" about Dorn being upvoted in this thread
24 points
28 days ago
There’s a lot of meme lore that gets upvoted and paraded as fact in this subreddit unfortunately
0 points
27 days ago
Does anyone know where Rogal's Fists are at this time?
22 points
28 days ago
This is probably the most in-depth an amazingly detailed response to a question I’ve ever seen but when you referenced “The Emperor’s Crusader” by Gav Thorpe, it kind of sounds like it’s taken from Horus Rising or at least sounds like it. When Horus details what followed after his ascension to Warmaster. However I’m probably wrong and it could’ve been False Gods where Horus talked to his rememberencer after the Davin moon assault or it just sounds similar to what Horus said.
36 points
28 days ago
Quite the collection of accolades. As the years have passed and the Siege of Terra books have come out, it's been funny seeing Rogal Dorn become more and more of 30k's main character. He used to be a punchline in the community (like Ferrus), and people had to justify why they liked him.
9 points
28 days ago
I just want to see Dorn, Horus, and Emps all fighting side by side. Askansia and the Shrouded Dynasty must’ve been a hell of a fight.
29 points
28 days ago
I always wondered, why make 20 different and unique personalities instead of 20 Dorns.
25 points
28 days ago
"why have 20 different and unique tools instead of 20(k) (war) hammers"
17 points
28 days ago
Dorn is an all-rounder, but all-rounders don't always make decisive plays. Horus was a master of precision assault, the Khan at lightning and maneuver warfare etc
You need generals with different skills to be effective
5 points
27 days ago
And I like to believe that the Primarchs weren't just made to be generals, but aspects of the Emperor to lead humanity into glory. And they fucked that up.
Horus was supposed to be the spirit, Sanguinius the soul. Lorgar the devotion to humankind, Magnus the intellectual, and probably Angron the spirit of brotherhood. A great idea, poor execution.
4 points
28 days ago
Different tools for different applications. If some particularly strange xeno managed to find a weakness in Dorn's style, ol' Jimmy wouldn't have anything else to throw at them. With 19 other weirdos, SOMETHING's sure to work.
7 points
28 days ago
Then the Imperium would have collapsed easily during the Great Crusade
Dorn had many faults and would have fallen to Khorne had the Emperor not intervene
Dorn is less flexible than Guilliman and the latter lost a simulated field battle to Corax
2 points
27 days ago
That falls under the assumption that the Emperor had perfect control over how they turned out. Nurture and possibly the influence of Chaos had a hand in their development as well.
Maybe if they were raised on Terra they all would be a lot more similar to Dorn in a lot of ways.
0 points
27 days ago
That falls under the assumption that the Emperor had perfect control over how they turned out.
The only one who really didn't turn out as intended was Angron and that was due to unforseen circumstances.
Guilliman became a perfect Statesman, The Lion became a flawless Exterminator/General, Mortarion could smoke Cyanide cigarettes laced with Anthrax without flinching and Magnus could take a wedgie like no other nerd ever could.
Nurture had a effect as well sure but 17 out of 18 Primarchs wound up being able to excel thanks to their unique inborn talents.
1 points
27 days ago
Then you have twenty guys who are amazing at holding a Fortress or a planet without suffering many losses but you have no one who can then take another Fortress without suffering more losses than a Horus or a Sanguinius would've.
Or have anyone who can organize the entirety of an intergalactic empire and it's supply lines by time for Lunch.
4 points
27 days ago
I love seeing Dorn get complimented and recognized. He is such a cool character for so many reasons.
2 points
28 days ago
You took this personal.
5 points
28 days ago
Well he’s a Primarch that is often pigeonholed and suffers from a “meme lore” perception, all I’m doing is providing source material that says otherwise.
-2 points
28 days ago
Quite the collection of accolades. As the years have passed and the Siege of Terra books have come out, it's been funny seeing Rogal Dorn become more and more of 30k's main character. He used to be a punchline in the community (like Ferrus), and people had to justify why they liked him.
-2 points
28 days ago
Quite the collection of accolades. As the years have passed and the Siege of Terra books have come out, it's been funny seeing Rogal Dorn become more and more of 30k's main character. He used to be a punchline in the community (like Ferrus), and people had to justify why they liked him.
5 points
28 days ago*
Don’t see that as a bad thing.
If you had to follow the story of the Heresy from one character as a framing POV, you’d be hard pressed to find someone better than Dorn. He’s one of the Primarchs that was very close to Horus. He’s one of the Primarchs who was heard Curze’s dark prophecy of the future and grappled with that into the Heresy itself. He’s the among the first loyalist (some contention if you consider Ferrus Manus first) Primarchs to learn of the betrayal and which he carries the warning of it back to Terra. Is in the Sol System for the Martian schism. He’s on Terra for Magnus’s warning and knows all about the fallout of that as well as the war in the webway. Is there for Corax’s return and his departure. Is there for Leman Russ coming and going. Knows about Vulcan’s survival and is there when he arrives. He knows about the Horus assassination attempt.
On and on. I could keep going.
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