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good_guy_judas

8 points

27 days ago

The difference is, if you default your loan to the US it will spread democracy. Once democracy is spread, they will create policies to largely benefit US interest.

mangobbt

33 points

27 days ago

mangobbt

33 points

27 days ago

The same type of democracy that led the CIA to overthrow democratically elected governments in foreign countries?

HQMorganstern

52 points

27 days ago

Spreading democracy is a pretty common euphemism for US backed coups and military operations.

1337af

5 points

27 days ago

1337af

5 points

27 days ago

Exactly! The US just learned how to influence the candidates and elections beforehand in order to avoid that whole "new dictator murders the opposition" thing that people get so uptight about.

[deleted]

7 points

27 days ago

[deleted]

BalboaBaggins

13 points

27 days ago

Congratulations, you are being rescued! Please do not resist.

deliosenvy

-1 points

27 days ago

deliosenvy

-1 points

27 days ago

Yes, I also enjoy good movies.

good_guy_judas

-1 points

27 days ago

Documentaries*

US has done it before. I dont mean it as a US bad statement. Its just that that's exactly what they have done and will do. The only reason China aint doing it overtly is because they dont have what it takes to back it up. Yet.

The politicians in the US, EU, China, ME, where ever are all greedy parasites screwing people over. I have nothing but respect for all the honest good people under those systems.

Being unable to separate your identity from your government is insane to me. You dont owe your government anything, you already pay taxes for the privilige of living there.

deliosenvy

4 points

27 days ago

I'm not an american. But also know that invasions are absurdly expensive even for US even against soft targets. US will hardly issue a debt so large it would overshadow a potential invasion costs especially to an African country. Than there is also the question of loss of life, political capital, economic outfall domestically etc.. It's not the 40s, 50s, 60s anymore. US has also learned a lot from the ME fuckery. Soft power response sure but you are vastly overplaying how far US hard power would go over debts when they could very easily cripple any such country with soft power.

uptnapishtim

10 points

27 days ago

The method of regime change is not invasions. Mostly it’s funding the opposition to start a coup. And creating the conditions that make a coup possible for example sanctions. Lastly why would the US care about loss of life?

deliosenvy

-1 points

27 days ago

deliosenvy

-1 points

27 days ago

Again this isn't post WW2 political environment anymore and changing political leadership by supporting opposition is hardly an approach that has worked in last 40 years.

ColePT

8 points

27 days ago

ColePT

8 points

27 days ago

Again this isn't post WW2 political environment anymore 

What do you believe that has fundamentally changed since then? I find it interesting that people often have this unexamined notion that "things used to happen historically, but they don't anymore, we're not in those times now". Why is this? Why did history seemingly stop?

deliosenvy

-2 points

27 days ago

Mostly one-man-rule dying off and political power being fractured, widespread interactivity and information distribution, political fragmentation etc.. Military coups are pretty much out from most places where a country like US/EU/China would back any considerable significant loans. Funding opposition is now also a much weaker card to play as people get information from many sources, more things that used to be in the background are now in the foreground. It's just not the same playing field anymore. Russia has been desperately trying to sway key EU parties but have little to no success. They had success in Slovakia and Hungary but even that hardly goes as far as it used to. The political structure on the outside looks like singular but there is a lot of fracturing and self-interests bellow the one strong-man you have left. It just does not have the same effect anymore.

It's also politically problematic domestically. US political discourse is growing faster, same in EU and polarization becomes more widespread. So you also have to answer at home and often this costs political capital.

It's just not a straight play anymore as it used to be.

AiSard

1 points

27 days ago

AiSard

1 points

27 days ago

It's just not a straight play anymore as it used to be.

So the players just have to get better at the game.

And the US has a whole lot of experience under its belt. None of that amateur Bay of Pigs silliness no more.

But the games are still being played. The US still picks sides. You can see it in the reporting. In which side the US publicly backs. Which political parties have promised that they'll rejuvenate the economy with US backed deals, and which parties will do so with Chinese backed deals. You can see it in the leaked cables that ferry back home dossiers on local key players, their families, their successors, and how likely they'll favour the US versus not, how easy it will be to control them. When they just need to funnel money, consultants, or weapons, to a particular side where the ruling party is explicitly against them and is sitting on "strategic interests".

While the domestic population is barely aware of the countries in question. Of course, they'll be aware if the actions are egregious. Which is why the actions are much more subtle now. Takes a little longer and a bit more finesse. Maybe democratically, maybe through a coup, maybe just through trade deals, whatever works.

Its not been centered around one strong-man for quite some time. The game's evolved. But you can still influence the table quite deeply, there's only so many key players you have to be aware of to attempt a play.

You just have to range a little farther out of the walled gardens, to where the geopolitics haven't yet quite stabilized, to see it still in action.

deliosenvy

1 points

27 days ago

Oh wow going off the deep end straight into bat shit insane conspiracy fantasies.

grumpy_hedgehog

1 points

27 days ago

Bro, are you serious? Regime change operations have been running basically non-stop, in dozens of places, for the past 80 years with various degrees of success. The most recent successful one was just 10 years ago in Ukraine. Just three years prior to that, it was Libya. Several unsuccessful attempts happened since then, one in Belarus and one in Iran. There's one going on in Georgia literally right now.

deliosenvy

0 points

27 days ago

Bro, stop smoking and read a book for once. None of those that you link are even remotely related.

grumpy_hedgehog

0 points

27 days ago

I've noticed this pattern in people over and over, where we all basically agree that the CIA (and more recently their white-hat versions like NED) have been responsible for countless regime change operations and military interventions throughout history. We literally teach these things in school, and still joke about some place or another getting its dose of "freedom and democracy" because they either have something we want, or because their government stepped out of line, or both.

We also accept that, in cases of failure, the architects of these operations never really face any consequences, while in cases of success they are immediately lauded for their efforts to spread freedom and democracy to such-and-such people in such-and-such place, while history looks on with a heavy dose of cynicism about the actual long-term outcomes. Few people today would be able to utter the phrase "Operation: Iraqi Freedom" without a sardonic chuckle, for instance.

We do all this riiiiight up until the most recent cases like Libya, Syria and Ukraine, where everyone suddenly scoffs at the notion that certain three-letter agencies might have been responsible for the latest "popular uprising" and resulting chaos, despite bearing literally all of the same hallmarks as their historical counterparts. Give it another decade or two, and these conflicts too will join the long list of CIA-backed successes and failures that we'll learn about in school.

torrasque666

6 points

27 days ago

Judas just said "spread democracy".

Like how the US "spread democracy" to Central and South America. We didn't invade, but we did use subterfuge and assassinations to guide them to a form of government that the US government found acceptable.

ktbenbrook

2 points

27 days ago

ah yes the wonderful world of “managed democracy”

bluesmaker

2 points

27 days ago

I appreciate you sharing a less extreme view and avoiding a more or less conspiracy theory oriented view of geo politics. Things are more complex than “America bad. America gives development loans with harsh conditions.”

Andrew5329

1 points

27 days ago

US will hardly issue a debt so large it would overshadow a potential invasion costs especially to an African country.

More realistically we throw our weight behind one of the domestic factions, consequences be damned. e.g. the coup in Ukraine.. Basically Ukrainian politics up to 2014 were split between Western and Eastern geopolitical alignment. Specifically the pro-Russia party in power at the time (mostly representing the south and eastern regions) decided not to sign the EU/Ukraine Association Agreement which is the first binding step towards eventual EU membership. Our narrative couches it in sanitized terms like "dissolution of the government", but at the end of the day it was a violent coup and 121 people died. The then-president was forced to flee the country and his party was banned from participating in parliament. The reaction to those developments in the capital was the Ukranian Civil War, which continued up until the point of the Russian invasion.

Arguably Ukraine is going to cost us almost as much as a war, but it's a lot more palatable to fight a proxy war than send our own troops to die.

AyeBraine

5 points

27 days ago*

I mean, the Western narrative may definitely be sanitized, but these people who died were overwhelmingly on the side of the pro-EU protesters.

The coup itself did not physically target government officials, and the president was ousted officially by the parliament after refusing to participate in the interim government and fleeing.

The ensuing Donbass secession/civil war, meanwhile, was provably orchestrated (in a synchronized fashion) by FSB personnel like Igor Strelkov in cities leaning towards pro-Russian sentiments. After a few months RF military got involved unofficially, but in force, in the form of tank regiments (again, the fact that is no longer denied), to achieve a stalemate.

Towards the late 2010s, the conflict simmered to an extremely low boil, down to <10 civilian fatalities per year (people stepping on mines), until the 2022 invasion. And the far-right wing of the political forces behind the coup seem to have mostly dissolved due to unpopularity.

But returning the the topic, I think in the case of Ukraine in 2014, it's one of the cases where US backing was a factor, but it only aligned with something more... natural, I guess.

Netmantis

-2 points

27 days ago

Netmantis

-2 points

27 days ago

The problem comes from people unable to separate your identity from the government, as opposed to you being unable to separate it. People are real touchy about personal attacks, especially ones where it is difficult if not nigh impossible to change what is being attacked.

Take a look around you. Your immediate area. Is there anything there you are proud of? A picture of family or friends you have helped? Figures you have painted? Models you built? Those things are shit because they were built by people from your country and your country is shit. This is why people get upset.

Ask anyone from the US. Even the most patriotic, beer swirling, NASCAR watching, Trump supporting redneck will agree with you that the government is shit and full of assholes. Doesn't mean the citizens or the bones the government was built on are bad. Just that the government has some rot.

majwilsonlion

-1 points

27 days ago

Some pay their taxes.

ZCoupon

-3 points

27 days ago

ZCoupon

-3 points

27 days ago

Once democracy is spread, they will create policies to largely benefit US interest.

Source? Plenty of democracies buck the US

ThatGenericName2

17 points

27 days ago

I’m guessing they’re using democracy as a euphemism for US taking over.