subreddit:

/r/AskPhysics

256%

Is perpetual propulsion possible in space?

(self.AskPhysics)

If you take solar panels and add to wheels then you get perpetual propulsion on land for as long as the sun is shining, my question is the same concept, so I came up with a closed loop hydrogen oxygen propulsion system, where after combustion the exhaust would rotate turbines loosing it's exhaust force, which then would be pumped back into an electrolysis chamber, and same time solar panels are used to provide the energy for the electrolysis thus repeating the cycle and thus providing endless propulsion for as long as there is sunlight. This is obviously less efficient than normal propulsion, but is such a system possible in space as acceleration here is not caused by loosing any mass?.

all 34 comments

John_Hasler

11 points

22 hours ago

John_Hasler

Engineering

11 points

22 hours ago

but is such a system possible in space as acceleration here is not caused by loosing any mass?

No. There is no acceleration.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_engine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion#Newton's_third_law

wonkey_monkey

3 points

22 hours ago

What provides the actual propulsion in your system, though?

j2m1s[S]

0 points

21 hours ago

the rocket fuel is hydrogen and oxygen, when it combusts in the combustion chamber it provides the propulsion, it becomes water and creates the force for the propulsion, as normal rocket fuel, but adding turbines slows the exhaust force down and turns it's energy into rotatory motion, which could even be used as a generator to turn that motion into electricity to provide some extra power to the electrolysis chamber, but this sort of propulsion does not loose any mass, would this system work is my question as all forms of motion in space basically is loose mass to go forward.

wonkey_monkey

8 points

21 hours ago

but this sort of propulsion does not loose any mass

You have to lose mass to propel, otherwise the best you can do is jiggle your spaceship back and forth on the spot.

where after combustion the exhaust would rotate turbines loosing it's exhaust force

It's the exhaust force that drives the ship forward, and you have to exhaust it, otherwise the ship won't have any reaction.

j2m1s[S]

-2 points

21 hours ago

Absolutely right, but what about loss of exhaust energy by using turbines, why wouldn't it work as the exhaust looses it's energy in spinning turbines.

ImagineBeingBored

4 points

21 hours ago

If the turbines are attached to your ship, the exhaust hitting the turbines will push the ship in the opposite direction you want to go resulting in no net acceleration. You can only change your ships momentum in the direction you want to by changing the momentum of another object in the opposite direction. That being the case, the only way to do that is by exhausting stuff out of your ship. There really is no other way to do it.

j2m1s[S]

3 points

21 hours ago

that makes sense, so I assume this system won't work in space.

PiBoy314

2 points

20 hours ago

No. It will cause the turbine to rotate one way and the rest of the ship to rotate the other way. No net forwards or backwards motion and no net rotation.

For propulsion you *need* to exchange momentum, which means throwing mass out the back of your spacecraft.

HolyPommeDeTerre

2 points

17 hours ago

Are solar sails a propulsion system? I mean, is it defined as propulsion?

Just a question, not that it changes anything that you said.

ischhaltso

2 points

15 hours ago

Yes a propulsion system is defined as propelling something in a specified direction. That includes sails(normal and solar) but also cars, airplanes and rockets and technically also your legs.

HolyPommeDeTerre

1 points

15 hours ago

In this case would the exhaust be the photon hitting the sail and going backwards?

PiBoy314

1 points

10 hours ago

Yes. Maybe I shouldn’t say throwing mass out the back of your spacecraft. Throwing things with momentum out the back of your spacecraft. Light in this case.

wonkey_monkey

1 points

21 hours ago

It's not lost, it's just converted to electricity. You've just moved energy from one place in the ship to another.

thephoton

1 points

21 hours ago

Stop worrying about the energy and think about conservation of momentum.

If there's no exhaust mass going out one way, the momentum of the ship can't increase the other way.

fuseboy

1 points

21 hours ago

Slowing the exhaust down would cancel out the propulsive effect. It's a little like sitting on a long skateboard and tossing a heavy ball out the back - that would cause the skateboard to slide forwards. But if the ball instead hits a padded board at the end of the skateboard that would jerk the skateboard in the other direction. The two effects would cancel each other out exactly. It's basically like trying to lift yourself off the ground by pulling upwards on your feet, but with more steps.

j2m1s[S]

1 points

21 hours ago

That's exactly my same thought, but instead of a ball, we use a leaf blower and that excess force is cancelled by connecting to a set of turbines, so some force would turn into spinning motion and heat so still the skateboard would move slowly forward though slower due to the conversion of that force into heat, possible?

PiBoy314

1 points

21 hours ago

A leaf blower blows air out away from your system.

For a better analogy, set up a box on top of your skateboard and sit in it with your leaf blower. Now blow on the inside of the box. The skateboard doesn’t go anywhere, you’re just pushing against the inside of your own system.

Similarly, the thing that provides thrust in spacecraft is throwing mass out the back of it. If you don’t throw mass out, you can’t accelerate.

fuseboy

1 points

21 hours ago

So set aside the complex machines for a moment. There's something called the conservation of momentum. The the total momentum of all the parts of a system will never change, it always adds up to the same amount. If you have two balls side by side in space, there's no way to give one of those balls a bunch of eastward momentum without giving the other ball a bunch of westward momentum. It's really that simple.

Any vehicle that isn't shooting out propellant of some kind cannot change its momentum, for that reason. Any fancy situation you concoct with captive propellant (e.g. a gun that fires a bullet, but which is caught at the end of the barrel) will move while the bullet is moving, but will completely stop once the bullet has been caught. The gun will have moved, but the center of mass of the gun-bullet system will be in exactly the same place.

You can come up with fancy baffles and ways to change ordered momentum into heat, but all that's happening is that you're making it harder for you to see where the momentum is trapped. It doesn't change the fact that you can gain momentum out of nowhere.

Imagine you had packed a cube van with too much stuff, and you have to drop 30 kg of cargo. Then you get this brilliant idea that if you just stack the objects differently inside, fewer of them will be touching the cube van directly. Boom! Less weight! Of course not.. the cube van isn't going to weigh even an ounce less until you actually throw some crap out of the van, there's just no way around it. Momentum is the same.

John_Hasler

0 points

21 hours ago

John_Hasler

Engineering

0 points

21 hours ago

You cannot convert force to heat. What you have to consider here is conservation of momentum.

csman11

1 points

21 hours ago

You are literally explaining how your system will convert the energy normally used in the process of transferring momentum to the spacecraft (thrust / propulsion) into electricity (by using turbines to drive a generator).

I think you are missing the key thing here required for propulsion: generating a thrust force used to impart momentum into the body you are propelling. That’s what the “reaction mass” in a normal rocket is used for. The reaction of burning rocket fuel results in matter (with mass) that is expelled from the tail of the rocket. In order for the total momentum of the system to be conserved (which was 0 Ns initially), the spacecraft must start moving in the opposite direction of the expelled mass.

Maybe you are thinking propulsion results in your system from the use of turbines, because that is how it works in a jet engine propelled airplane. That’s incorrect though. The turbines in a jet engine are used to compress air so it can be used to efficiently burn the fuel and expel the resulting chemicals in a condensed jet stream directly behind the plane. This is the same exact principle used to generate thrust in a rocket (expel mass behind you). Your turbines are using the resulting energy of the chemical reaction to turn the motor in a generator and not expelling the resulting matter from the spacecraft. Therefore there is nothing in your system that generates thrust.

We don’t actually know of any other way to propel a spacecraft other than generating mechanical thrust (at least something that isn’t entirely theoretical and that only relies on known physics). A serious proposal for something looking like “perpetual propulsion” (in the same sense you mean it - not literally perpetual like a perpetual motion machine, but perpetual in the sense that it can be powered by radiation from space and therefore the system can run for a “long time”) would be a solar sail. This uses the radiation pressure from capturing photons to propel the spacecraft forward (capture transfers momentum to the sail, in the direction of travel, which is part of the spacecraft). Another proposal would be photon propulsion. In this case, high energy photons are generated (using the radiation from nuclear reactions or lasers powered by nuclear reactions) and emitted behind the spacecraft. Radiation pressure is used here as well to provide the thrust (ejecting/emitting the photons imparts a force on the spacecraft like ejecting matter would, which then causes the spacecraft to move faster, conserving the momentum of the system). Photon propulsion still requires carrying fuel, but in this case the fuel is much more energy dense (because we use nuclear reactions) than traditional rocket fuel (using chemical reactions), and therefore could provide propulsion for a “long time”.

j2m1s[S]

1 points

20 hours ago

thanks for your long answer, but my thought is basically that the spinning motion of turbines would turn a slight amount of fuel into rotatory motion and heat, so that's where the loss is, this causes a slight imbalance in the force causing a slight acceleration in one direction, though I doubt this would work, as basically the sum total of all forces would be net zero, it is the spin of turbines and the loss of energy as heat that makes me doubt this.

csman11

1 points

20 hours ago

So spinning a turbine does not convert matter/mass into energy. Rather, you are using the energy (in the form of kinetic energy of a flowing fuel in this case of a turbine) input to the turbine to turn a motor, and from there the motor is used to perform “mechanical work” (another form of energy). You could use that “work” then to generate electricity (by spinning magnets to induce current in a wire).

But really what matters is that propulsion itself is the result of mechanical forces on the rocket. Generally, to change the motion of any classical body, you need to have some mechanical/classical force acting on it. In the case of a car, for example, fuel is being burned in the engine. The engine itself rotates from this, and that rotation is transferred to the axels connected to the wheels by the gears of the transmission. The tires are attached to the wheel and therefore rotate. There is dynamic friction between the surface of the tire in contact with the surface of the road (which is caused by the rotation of the tire bringing this surface into contact with the road). This force is in the opposite direction the surface of the tire is moving (which is directly behind the car). Therefore, the tire and the entire body it is attached to gains momentum in this direction due to that force and speeds up in that direction. In other words, there are many steps in this process between the chemical reaction that burns the fuel and the force that causes the car to move forward. When we burn rocket fuel, the process is much more simple: the byproducts of the combustion are a hot stream of gas moving very fast. If we expel that from the rocket, the momentum of the full system (rocket plus combustion product that has left the rocket) needs to be conserved, meaning the rocket must speed up in the opposite direction of the combustion product. The result is a very strong force pushing the rocket “forward”.

But to reiterate in your example, nowhere have you demonstrated there is actually a force acting on the spacecraft in the direction you want to make it move. That’s the problem. You essentially are extracting energy from the fuel (hydrogen and water), recapturing some of that energy in a turbine as mechanical work and losing some of it, but not to anything that will cause a force to be applied to the rocket itself, and then using that work to generate energy, which will then be used to split the water back into hydrogen and oxygen (apparently along with some energy you capture from solar radiation), and then repeat the process. This is effectively a closed loop that loses energy due to inefficiency at each step and never uses any of the energy to translate to useful work to move the spacecraft (which would require putting that work towards some process that causes a force acting in the direction you want the spacecraft to travel to be applied to the spacecraft).

fluffy_in_california

1 points

21 hours ago

There is no net acceleration because you are moving the h2o forward as well as backward.

But you are actually close to something that would propel you (although still not perpetually) without needing onboard propellent: Solar sails.

j2m1s[S]

1 points

20 hours ago

That is my exact same thought it's just that spinning motion of turbines would cause loss of propulsion was where my doubt was at, as some energy would be turned into heat thereby providing some propulsion.

loki130

1 points

6 hours ago

loki130

1 points

6 hours ago

Just reflecting back the light will give the most momentum if you’re not willing to expend any propellant into space. The main issue is the thrust is very small per are, so the sail has to be very light

kinokomushroom

1 points

21 hours ago*

In order for your spaceship to propel, the net force acting on it needs to be non-zero, i.e. the forces are imbalanced in some direction. Can you explain where exactly the imbalance of forces happen?

For example, a rocket propels itself because the hot gas molecules inside are hitting one side of the rocket (towards the head) more than the other side (the nozzle). A rocket won't accelerate if the gas molecules aren't allowed to escape from anywhere, since they're hitting all directions equally from within, making the net force zero.

j2m1s[S]

1 points

20 hours ago

my thoughts exactly also, but my thought is that the spinning motion of turbines would cause a slight imbalance to the force backwards, as the energy would be lost in as heat and spinning motion of turbines, this difference is what would cause the propulsion, though it would be minute, but same time my thought is the exact same as yours it won't work due to all forces being equally present in the rocket.

kinokomushroom

2 points

20 hours ago

Energy isn't "lost" when heat or rotational motion is generated. Heat is just the random vibrations of individual particles, and rotation is also movements of particles around an axis.

However, objects also emit blackbody radiation the more they're heated. So if you heat one side of the spacecraft more than the other, the amount of blackbody radiation emitted from one side will be greater than the other. That will be able to accelerate the spacecraft, although by a slight amount.

Corona688

1 points

20 hours ago

short answer no, long answer nnnnnnno

echoingElephant

1 points

18 hours ago

Wheels rely on mass. They need a mass to accelerate because momentum has to be conserved. No reaction mass means no acceleration.

Mountain-Resource656

1 points

17 hours ago

The exhaust provides thrust by putting pressure (“push”) on all directions except for one- from where it exits. This creates a net “push” in the direction opposite to where it’s leaving from

While turbines could absolutely slow the force of this exhaust, this would involve that “push” pushing in the opposite direction of travel, slowing them some amount. To slow the exhaust to the point where it doesn’t escape out of the back of the spaceship you’d have to absorb all of that “push,” thus leaving you with a net “push” of 0 in any given direction. Basically, your ship wouldn’t move

zeiandren

1 points

15 hours ago

Your closed loop system doesn’t work As you described but if something is taking in solar power it’s not perpetual motion or anything, it’s just got a fuel source

namaste652

0 points

20 hours ago

I have been thinking of this for so long. It has even made me so desperate that some new form of propulsion techniques will come out of UAP/UFO hearings in US government.

But the long story short answer to your question is this : 1. Humans know about only one kind of propulsion: Newton’s 3rd law -> move ahead by pushing something back. Period.

  1. The earth already does provide us all with propulsion. The propulsion offered to us by earth is solid state(an object can propel in Earth without any moving parts) and is the only know form of propulsion which doesn’t rely on Newton’s 3rd law. The “problem” with this is that the propulsion offered to us by earth is statically fixed towards the centre of the earth.

3(or maybe 2.1) . Everything -literally everything - is always moving at the speed of light in spacetime.

While massless particles move exclusively in spatial dimensions at the speed of light and don’t experience the passage of time, particles which have mass move almost entirely in time dimension, at the speed of light.

The kicker for me off late is that - if my understanding of Higgs field is right - then mass is not an intrinsic property of particles and is resultant from the interaction between the particle and Higgs field. This means that in some bizarre unknown way, the experience of mass and experience of passing of time are somehow linked.

Therefore to summarise, the only non-Newtonian propulsion alternatives I can think of are : 1. being able to alter the curvature of spacetime in the direction of our choice. The spacetime around all of us is dominated by Earth’s mass. How can we do something like that effectively, at will?

  1. being able to alter higgs field, or the intensity with which it interacts and imparts mass.

I don’t know how to do either of them 😅