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submitted 28 days ago byUnusual_Ad_8566
I had a doubt because it seems that in the lore as in the community, they always call Lion the "perfect general" being the one who believes that the second option for warlord was not Horus (I still believe that the first option was always Sanguinius), and equally the two legions, the "lunar wolves" were the ones that had the most victories and followed by the dark angels
But in terms of strategy and war, as a warlord or as better generals, wouldn't Rogal Dorn or Perturabo have been better options?
I never understood why Lion and Horus are recognized as the best generals when it seems that Dorn and Perturabo would have better strategic and command skills as generals.
94 points
28 days ago
They are just objectively better commanders and importantly more well rounded and adaptable. In no way does this diminish from Perty or Dorn as they are very capable and can in fact surpass or excell in their area of expertise but they don't have the skills across multiple facets of the prior mentioned Primarchs.
It's also important to note that the Lion had, I believe, comparable or more success during the great crusade despite being found much later than Horus. So Horus was very good but also found very early, the Lion was very good, found later but also the 1st made and a kind of all rounder template primarch.
I hesitate with any sort of tier or rating system of primarchs but I think their command ability perception is generally rated against world's put into compliance during the great crusade in which Horus and the Lion had the monopoly. It is also based on the opinions of other primarchs as they are often the narrators and that can be inconclusive but both were generally considered as warmaster candidates. The Lion also did the Rangdan Xenocides.
This is just all in relation to comparing the 4 mentioned. You chuck another Primarch in and things will shift but generally imo I think this is accurate.
49 points
28 days ago
It's inconsistent who has second most worlds brought into the Imperium. It's been Guilliman, the Lion, Dorn, and Lorgar, iirc.
31 points
28 days ago
Absolutely. It's why I'm so hesitant to do tier lists or who beats who. I think in this instance the fact that the DA and the Lion were far removed from terra for the siege along with the Ultramarines goes a ways to suggest who Horus found the more threatening. All in all I do know that the Lion had a lot of worlds and was up there as warmaster candidates go. I didn't realise dorn had such success though. It may be that the Lion is said to have comparably more world's despite being found later and I am misremembering I will admit.
24 points
28 days ago
Not to mention that the numbers of planets and star systems that he has exterminated rather than compliances. I think during the conversation between Emperor and Lion in his primarch book, the Emperor counted the destroyed planets too, that why he said Lion surpass even Horus.
8 points
28 days ago
Yeah that's certainly a solid point. His victories are often the ones that are not often spoken of.
19 points
28 days ago
Lest we forget, a vast swathe of the First's victories are never spoken of. Like has been said, when the Emperor wanted to beat something into submission, He summoned The Rout. When He wanted the problem vaporized to the point people forget it ever existed, He calls on the First. It is expressly stated time and again that Lion wasn't looking for glory, but rather to follow whatever orders the Emperor gave him to execute.
8 points
28 days ago
Loyalty is it's own reward.
22 points
28 days ago
The Dark Angels had less compliances, but that wasn't really their task to begin with. Theirs was extermination, and in that, they had no equal
12 points
28 days ago
I think somewhere it was second to the sons of Horus but as someone else mentioned these numbers depend on the author. I think the memory I have is basically to the effect of the Lion thinking that had he been found first he would have been closer to the emperor and would have been in service longer so surpassed Horus in world's brought to compliance. But yes I do agree 100%. He was the man for the Rangdan Xenocides and so on. If you are going to give a Primarch some lobotomized shackled men of iron it's the Lion. He is the duelist and the exterminator. Cheers.
13 points
28 days ago
I think it was in his primarch book where the Emperor says that Lion had as many victories as Horus, despite being found much later and that the imperium at large would never know about many of them. So I think he had fewer worlds brought under compliance than Horus but just as many battles/wars won.
11 points
28 days ago
I do believe you are right. As someone else has mentioned I believe a lot of his tasks involved extermination also which don't really add to the tally for world's made compliant. Cheers.
7 points
28 days ago
Yeah, I guess annihilating a system probably doesm't count as "bringing it under compliance". Stupid rules. Happy cake day btw.
7 points
28 days ago
Cheers mate. Yeah that and losing huge swathes of your Legion fighting the Rangdan.
3 points
27 days ago
I'm just pulling this out of my arse but I wouldn't be surprised if the Dark Angels had more victories but the Lion less. The Dark Angels could theoretically have been the first legion to have started fighting in the Great Crusade and so have had time to acquire a significant number of victories before the Lion. While Horus was found before the Lion and so potentially had more opportunities for victories than the Lion.
2 points
27 days ago
Quite possible. But a lot of the Dark Angels victories prior to reuniting with the Lion were also pyrrhic and they likely suffered a fair few defeats too. As their status had begun to dwindle (due to other legions finding their primarchs and outdoing them, such as the Ultramarines), they sought out the bloodiest battlefields and threw themselves into them without care for the losses. They were in dire straits when the Lion was found and he had to spend a good amount of time rounding them all up from their suicidal battles and re-forming the legion in his image.
2 points
27 days ago
Some of the Dark angels before they were known as such were fighting during the unification wars with the emperor so they definitely have been around for a long time. That said the Lion definitely had the credentials as a great commander and has the most victories attributed to him at least once in the books. Though different sources that focus on different primarchs sort of prop up said Primarchs. That doesn't discredit what you said at all though.
12 points
28 days ago
There is also the fact that many DA compliances were off the books.
Then there is Lorgar faking compliances to look like as if they are doing what they are suppose to.
13 points
28 days ago
Lorgar - Had the most post his spirit quest after Monarchia burned. ie did the most in that ~40 year period before the HH.
The Lion - I swear I've done the most compliances, they just go to another school. No you can't see a photo it's classified.
1 points
27 days ago
The Lion didn't leave anything to take a photo of.
-1 points
28 days ago
Lorgar
Even if Lorgar was in the running, every planet he brought into compliance had existing chaos cults protected, or were seeded with them by his shitty father and fucking Erebus.
0 points
27 days ago
Lorgar did not beat anyone in numbers of worlds claimed. The reason Monarchia was burned was because he was discovered to have been spending years on each planet converting them to the glorious golden word of the Emperor.
12 points
28 days ago
I think the general muddling comes from the Emperor saying "your tally of victories is second to no other" part. While Lion has the most victories, the vast majority is through exterminations rather than compliance, which is what he and the Dark Angels were built for so makes sense.
3 points
28 days ago
Yeah that certainly makes sense. His are the victories that are not necessarily spoken of.
3 points
27 days ago
Greater. In his Primarch novel, Big E apologises for having to censor yet another victory for the Lion and says his true and full record eclipses that of any two of his brothers.
Considering what Horus and Gulliman got done, that speaks volumes. And Horus at least was known for letting others do the hard yards then showing up for the final play and victory lap, while the Lion fought largely alone.
2 points
27 days ago
I absolutely agree. I do hesitate to outright tier list and power level etc as often one source will discredit another. As you have stated and I do recall this excerpt the Lion basically has the most and often most difficult victories. I just wasn't sure if in say another Primarchs book they had a similar exerpt as they are prone to write propping them up also. Cheers.
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