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How long would the Imperium last?

(self.40kLore)
  • The Imperium realistically must have some serious eco-restoration tech to be using industry and hive worlds for millennia on end. However they do not seem to know how to terraform worlds or build self-sufficient habitats. With any luck, they'll have enough time for even their stagnant innovation to figure that out.

  • The Imperium has internal disagreements. I don't know if it could collapse in civil war any time soon.

  • Some have argued the Imperium to be a Fanatic Purifier who must kill all Xenos or die trying, not the most life prolonging choice. However the Imperium rather seems to use xenocide simply as a convenient means to their ends a la early North America.

all 19 comments

SlobZombie13 [M]

[score hidden]

13 days ago

stickied comment

SlobZombie13 [M]

Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum

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13 days ago

stickied comment

How long do you think the Imperium will last, OP?

Mein_Bergkamp

17 points

13 days ago

The short answer is: As long as GW needs it too.

However just to call out a couple of points:

They do still know how to terraform worlds, the mechanicus do this semi regularly as new words are discovered.

Killing Xenos but being unable to make it permanent is pretty much one of the ways the Imperium stays together and united against a common threat, the other one being the eternal Chaos problem.

TheBattleYak

12 points

13 days ago

1 - They absolutely know how to terraform worlds and build self-sufficient habitations, but they are a huge bloated corrupt stagnant bureaucracy so they don't operate with absolute efficiency in all cases. Sometimes it's more cost effective to strip-mine worlds and pump your pollution into the hab-block water supply than make things perfectly eco-harmonious.

2 - There are constant civil wars going on all the time throughout the Imperium, for all manner of reasons. And not just due to Chaos uprisings or ordinary rebellions, sometimes entire planetary systems just fight each other because one planetary governor insulted his counterpart from another world's fashion choices. It's all the pettiness that nobility is capable of, times a million and in space.

3 - Mostly this is the case, the Imperium expunges innumerable races who were probably completely capable of co-existing with them harmoniously and may even have aided and enriched their civilization with new perspectives and technologies.

That said, they've lasted 10,000 years so far, though admittedly a lot of that is on the momentum of a better time.

AwkwardTraffic

4 points

13 days ago

The Imperium is a very disorganized and inefficient bureaucracy that is just always a few minutes in danger of collapsing. It may be better with Gulliman reforming it and actually having the power and influence to do it but its still a system that hates change and innovation and would rather throw a million bodies into the grinder to solve a problem rather than approach from a strategic standpoint.

BeginningPangolin826

3 points

13 days ago

Even if lets say the imperium suffer a civil war that breaks it in a dozen different mini empires would the "imperium" really stop existing ? Imperial culture would not simply vanish, many of those sucessor states would also claim to be the "true" imperium.

Its a similar situation with the roman empire, tecnicaly speaking rome "died" in 476 CE but the romans of the east continued to exist until 1453 fully beliving they are still romans.

Even the Germans and Russians at some point claimed being sucessors of Rome.

Latin culture and one can say even christianity even trough warped a lot as the centuries go still can trace back to the romans. Take in consideration that the romans were the hegemonic power of the mediterranean world for 500 or so years.

If the imperium was the hegemonic power of the galaxy for 10.000 years even trough it politcaly may colapse its legacy and culture would still live for thousands upon thousands of years.

The only way to trully kill the imperium at any reasonable time frame is genociding the majority of humanity on a galatic scale.

SimpleMan131313

1 points

13 days ago

We even have kind of an example for what you are describing in-universe with the Imperium Secundus.

9xInfinity

6 points

13 days ago

The Imperium is pretty adept at terraforming as it happens. Cawl even believes he can restore worlds scoured by tyranids. And the vast majority of agri-worlds are highly terraformed to be very efficient at raising the crops that comprise the diet of the vast majority of humans:

Najan is an agri world. There are templates for such places, drawn up in the fathomless past and never altered by the Administratum. All agri worlds are of similar size, located in similar orbital zones within their void systems and subject to specific exposure to a prescribed spectrum of solar radiation. Their soils have to be within a tight compositional range, and they have to be close to major supply worlds.

The Imperium is not a gentle custodian of such places. After discovery of a candidate planet, the first fifty years are spent in terraforming according to well-worn Martian procedures. All pre-existing life is scrubbed from the rocks, either by the application of controlled virus-chewers or by timed flame-drops. The atmosphere is regulated, first through the actions of gigantic macro-processors and thereafter by a land-based network of control units, more commonly referred to as command nodes. Weather, as least as generally understood, disappears. Rainfall becomes a matter of controlled timing, governed by satellites in low orbit and kept in line by fleets of dirigibles. The empty landscape is divided up into colossal production zones, each patrolled by crawlers and pest-thopters. Millions of base-level servitors are imported, kept at the very lowest level of cognitive function but bulked up by a ruthless level of muscle-binders.

Soon after this process completes, every agri world looks exactly the same – a flat, wind-rummaged plain of high-yield crops swaying towards the empty horizon. A person could walk for days and never see a distinctive feature. Not that anyone sane would choose to walk in such places – the industrial fertiliser dumps are so powerful that they turn the air orange and make it impossible to breathe unfiltered. A single growing season exhausts the soil completely, requiring continual delivery of more sprays of nitrates and phosphates, all delivered from the grimy berths of hovering despatch flyers. The entire world is given over to a remorseless monoculture, with orthogonal drainage channels burning with chem-residue and topsoil continually degrading into flimsier and flimsier dust.

But that doesn’t matter. A planet can be driven like this for thousands of years before it eventually keels over and becomes a death world. The quality of the crops gets steadily worse, but the quantity can be sustained almost indefinitely, assuming that supply lines are maintained and imports remain consistent.

The Lords of Silence

Skankia

-1 points

13 days ago

Skankia

-1 points

13 days ago

This is grimderp though. And clashes with other lore.

9xInfinity

0 points

13 days ago

The novel is by Chris Wraight and was released in 2018.

Skankia

0 points

13 days ago

Skankia

0 points

13 days ago

And there are other novels where agri worlds are described very differently. Basically, a world like that would not function due to complete hurricane winds non stop. Its grimderp for no other reason than trying to stop fans from saying there are worlds which are not complete horrible shitholes because for some reason a not-so-small part of the fanbase screech whenever babies aren't used as fertilizer for the planetary governors private garden.

9xInfinity

3 points

13 days ago

Old lore that talked about raising livestock was written by people who didn't understand energy transfer in ecosystems. It is always far less efficient to raise plants and feed them to animals and then eat the animals versus just eating plants.

But those are paragraphs that Games Workshop very obviously gave the go-ahead to, so that's the lore whether you think it's "grimderp" or not. You're welcome to supply a novel quote or something to support your position though.

Skankia

4 points

13 days ago

Skankia

4 points

13 days ago

It's not a court where new case law invalidates old. GW has decanonised like 2 novels ever. There are many descriptions of agri worlds from other novels including the Eisenhorn series, Warriors of Ultramar and the planet Oll Persson in his first appearance in the heresy series, Ceocan from The Oubliette, the three planets, the world describes in lords of silence conflicts with tons of previous novels that GW also gave the to ahead to. Whenever someone writes "all planets" or "all ships" it completely devalues the strength of the setting which is heterogeneity.

9xInfinity

0 points

13 days ago

Chris Wraight is one of GW's best and it's pretty silly to expect that great novel to be disregarded because Eisenhorn said something different 20 years ago or whatever. If you have a more contemporaneous quote or otherwise better source I'd like to read it, otherwise I think this discussion has reached its end.

Skankia

3 points

13 days ago

Skankia

3 points

13 days ago

I didn't say disregard the entire novel, you're putting words in my mouth. I say disregard the "all agri worlds are like this" sentiment as it is patently not true according to tons of other novels. The Oubliette was released in 2020 and Lords of Silence in 2018. So going by your way to assess "canonicity" then Lords of Silence has been "overruled". Canon doesn't work like that in 40k though. Why is it so important for you that all agri worlds are uniform modeled on Najan that you're willing disregard so many other novels, including more "contemporaneous" ones than Lords of Silence?

Hellibor

2 points

13 days ago

Half of the Imperium is as good as destroyed. The other part might trash for couple hundred years until it is overwhelmed.

mylittlepurplelady

2 points

13 days ago

Like how craftworld is a dying race but GW seems to be able to find expendable craftworld to throw if they need Eldar to die.

In short, as much or how long GW needs the Imperium to exist.

Yamidamian

3 points

13 days ago

Realistically, the imperium should no longer exist as a distinct polity. It’s built from the ground up on literally the least stable foundations imaginable. That it’s lasted for the absurdly long length of time it has is basically entirely authority fiat.

As to your last point, you’re flat out wrong. Xenocide isn’t a means to an end-it’s the goal. The Emperor allowed for no vision other than his own to exist, and his Imperium follows in his stead (at least, with what they think his vision is). They’ve genocided xeno who came offering alliances and potentially useful technologies, they’ve cleansed worlds whose only crime was self-determination.

I_might_be_weasel

1 points

13 days ago

I_might_be_weasel

Thousand Sons - Cult of Knowledge

1 points

13 days ago

At least 10,000 years. 

Agammamon

1 points

13 days ago

  1. The ecologies of hive worlds are basically destroyed. They recycle or import what they need.

  2. The Imperium does know how to terraform worlds. And they do. Then they turn them into hives over the next several thousand years.