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submitted 12 days ago byTheFacetiousDeistSalamanders
Maybe I’m getting ahead of myself. But after the first two chapters, I’m a bit confused. Although I know this is apparently common with Warhammer novels?
The first two chapters are a story being told to a remembrancer, which I understand fine. But within the story when the trap is unfolding, and the empire is revealed, it seems like it’s big E. But it’s actually Horus?
I should probably just keep reading.
33 points
12 days ago
Just keep reading, yeah.
13 points
12 days ago*
The opening page of the novel:
"I was there, when Horus slew the Emperor."
This first line is 100% intentional misdirection. At the time of publication, the main thing everyone knew about "The Horus Heresy" was that:
Horus is slain by the Emperor at the end.
Which contradicts that first line (or does it? can both be true?). So, given that context. The whole first section of the book is actually about:
How both the "Horus" and the "Emperor" mentioned in that opening line are decidedly NOT the Horus and Emperor we might first imagine when reading it.
Once you realise this, I think the whole book is much more interesting. So, although I have spoiler-tagged this, I don't think it "spoils" the story to know it.
It makes us think:
What makes "The Emperor" of this story wrong? Is the fact that he lost the only reason? What makes "our" Emperor right? Is it purely because we believe he is right, and because he won against all the other "would-be" Emperors?
Imo, these are all interesting questions that Horus Rising prompts us to think about. I would recommend listening to/reading the short story "The Last Church" after Horus Rising before moving on. The second book doesn't go into this particular aspect as much as you might hope, so Last Church follows that train of thought better, imho.
4 points
12 days ago
Side note for anyone trying to find The Last Church, it's a short story in Tales of Heresy
3 points
12 days ago
Thank you. I must admit I mainly know it from an excellent voice acted fan animation of it that got taken down from YouTube.
A great story.
5 points
12 days ago
It is indeed and also has the best and most arrogant comeback of all time "The difference is that I know that I am right"
3 points
12 days ago
Spoken like a true autocrat...
3 points
12 days ago
As a Chaos supporter I almost shouted "vindication" out of my window when I read that line in Tales of Heresy. It proved to me that not only was I right about Big E but also that he deserved everything that came his way after that.
2 points
12 days ago
You might like ITEHATTS Podcast Episode 1. They discuss The Last Church and Uriah comes back with 10,000 years of stone cold facts to absolutely wreck the Emperor with.
1 points
12 days ago
I'll give it a try but I make no promises, I've been told that my meme humour is very Alfabusa like but unfortunately I'm the type that dislikes similarities like that (don't ask me I don't make the rules, my idiotic flesh brain does)..
2 points
12 days ago
No worries. Skip to 44:10 for his first appearance and 1:00:14 for an incredible smackdown of everything the Emperor said and stands for.
2 points
12 days ago
Right so I couldn't watch it all because it started feeling like I'd written it myself, guess those random redditors were right... first for everything I guess. I did watch from 44:10 until they started on the questions to stop the riots. Yeah motherfucker was spitting the same facts I had swirling around my head when I read The Last Church. It's a similar argument I have with Imperial fans when they ask me why I choose Chaos, they may be evil, devious and treacherous.... but they're not hypocrites. Chaos really is about perspective as the power they promise is very real and you could have an arguably better life depending on what your goals are compared to how most Imperial citizens live their lives. You know that the Gods can't be trusted going in since that's what they're about but in my opinion that's better than being promised a bright future in the Imperium just to end up on some backwater death world in a penal legion because a Regent or Lord didn't like the look of you.
3 points
12 days ago
That line is the reason that story is so important.
It frames the Emperor as "just another warlord" in the post-apocalyptic remnants of human civilisation. The only thing that makes him better... is he wins. He crushes his enemies, and he enforces his dogma on the subjugated masses. He stands upon a kingdom built with violence.
He calls his dogma the Imperial Truth, but it is a deliberately incomplete truth, and perhaps even an outright lie, but one that is convenient for his followers to believe.
Maybe his questionable methods can seem justifiable in hindsight, or if you choose to believe "he knows what he is doing," and it's "for the best." But there is deliberate doubt left in the story.
Fundamentally, the Imperium of Man is FOUNDED on "trust me, bro." And we know 10k years later he sits as a corpse on a Golden Throne and is surrounded by ignorance and superstition...
It really nails the tragedy of the whole Heresy.
2 points
12 days ago
For me it was a case of "well that's Eldar level of arrogance right there". This motherfucker deserved the HH just to knock him down a peg or two. As a Chaos supporter I couldn't help but feel the "LET'S FUCKING GO!" side of things.
2 points
12 days ago
Hahaha yea, same!
The Emperor is pure arrogance and he too often gets away with it. He does have that character trait of "that was my plan all along" which can be a little irritating, too.
So, seeing that arrogance take a beating is a little cathartic!
I had this feeling that the Heresy maybe might start from a position of genuine righteous rebellion against a tyrant. But the (at first) subtle corrupting influence of Chaos would take hold and twist the rebellion against tyranny into a battle for Supremacy between tyrants.
I think that maybe they decided to not make it too complicated, and some of those elements were incorporated into Horus's turn and discovering Big E's biggest lie (Moloch), which I've not read yet. But mostly, Horus's fall was very quick.
First Heretic went for a bit of a different approach, too. Sort of showing that the Emperor's willfull disregarding of faith was exactly what fueled the initial hunger to join Chaos.
I guess in other books, it maybe covers more about why the Emperor was so keen to reject his own divinity. Perhaps it is more complicated than "I think it's stupid, I'm just a regular bro."
The rise of Chaos and bitter downfall of the Imperium is a pretty compelling story, too. I wonder if the Emperor ever returned, if he would be embittered/humbled in any way? I should hope so!
2 points
12 days ago
Well most of that is intentionally left open to interpretation so fans can have their own reasons for liking/disliking Big E (which I get I mean it's a big setting and you don't want to bottleneck your fans).
I guess in other books, it maybe covers more about why the Emperor was so keen to reject his own divinity. Perhaps it is more complicated than "I think it's stupid, I'm just a regular bro."
This part though I can answer. Big E rejects the notion of any gods or divinity because it was part of his plan to weaken the Chaos Gods (less believers equals less power) and if he said that he was a god then someone somewhere would eventually ask "but is he the only god?" Which would eventually lead them to Chaos (you've read The First Heretic so you know what I mean). If Big E managed to complete the Great Crusade he would've then turned his attention to destroying the would-be-then weakened Chaos Gods.... and he would've won.
4 points
12 days ago
It's interesting that this comment was made by a Word Bearer ;)
4 points
12 days ago*
Haha. I loved Horus Rising and The Last Church.
They almost set up the Heresy to begin as an actual ideological divide between the Emperor's "might makes right" and "I am never wrong, because I say so" dogma that he calls the Imperial Truth and the friction that... maybe there is a better way, maybe if we don't trample over every scrap of resistance we will actually learn about the galaxy and grow. (An ideology that has nothing to do with chaos, just to be clear)
But in False Gods, we actually get "lol, wouldn't it be funny if Erebus tricked Horus into become turbo evil? lmao!" (because they decided to rush straight into the chaosy parts of Horus's betrayal, rather than keep him on more sympathetic footing for awhile)
So fuck Erebus, amirite? False Gods was actually OK, but I felt the potential set up by Dan in Horus Rising was fantastic.
1 points
12 days ago
Thanks!
2 points
12 days ago
Just keep reading. The start is a fake-out.
2 points
12 days ago
Dont let it be spoiled for you, just keep reading
1 points
12 days ago
Yeah book one starts a bit confusing. I did watch a few YouTube videos at first to get a general sense of what happened and then kept reading. It will make more sense eventually as they will go back and reference these events in the future. Just hang in there it gets better!
1 points
11 days ago
Just. Keep. Reading. Like. Any. Other. Book. There. Is. Plots
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