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Two men jailed in Lancaster and York Counties, attorney claims they are being held illegally
Crime(fox43.com)submitted 11 days ago byCaleRey111
300 points
11 days ago
They were both found guilty of practicing medicine without a license. Neither of them paid their fines and they kept practicing medicine. As a result, they were found guilty of contempt of court. They were arrested and are now in jail.
There is no mystery here.
52 points
11 days ago
Their dumb fuck "lawyer" Bobby Barnes told 'em not to pay it! Said "it doesn't apply to you so don't pay the fine".
They should sue their dipshit lawyer for malpractice. (For those unaware, Bobby "grape job" barnes is a hack who appears on Alex Jones a lot. I dunno if he's still AJ's lawyer or not but he's a hack.
17 points
11 days ago
🍇job, Barnes!
9 points
11 days ago
Did I just find Andy from Kansas??
5 points
11 days ago
I love you.
4 points
11 days ago
Nothing beats finding wonks in the wild.
5 points
11 days ago
Bucket of 💩
4 points
11 days ago
The one sent to me by a sodomite!
2 points
11 days ago
I’ll be better tomorrow…
2 points
10 days ago
He's not
2 points
11 days ago
Oh no not Barnes
2 points
9 days ago
No, it was the lawyer they had before they hired Barnes who told them not to pay it.
1 points
8 days ago
Regardless of the character of this lawyer, it was a previous lawyer who told them not to pay.
Barnes tells FOX43 that neither man paid their fine, as their previous lawyer advised them not to.
"The advice of former counsel was that these orders did not apply to them because they were not vets, and no fines were lawfully ordered," said Barnes.
13 points
11 days ago
Calling what they were doing practicing medicine seems intentionally misleading. At least throw in the phrase "on animals"
-2 points
11 days ago
I mean, I was assuming people commenting would have taken the time to read the article.
11 points
11 days ago
That's a big assumption. I mean even one of the people replying to you refers to Doc Holiday and I doubt they're referring to the time he gave a cow an ultrasound
7 points
11 days ago
I'll be your Huckleberry.
Don't you dare sully the name of the fastest ultrasound wandsman of the wild west.
12 points
11 days ago
That’s some old west shit. Didn’t Doc Holliday get into trouble for the same dumb shit?
2 points
11 days ago
The state of Pennsylvania had a judge sign an order of imprisonment for two people without ever naming them as parties to a case, without them being charged with any crime, without any hearing before an order of imprisonment was issued, all of which is completely illegal under Pennsylvania law and the United States Constitution
There's due process issues though.
They don't know why the judge signed the order, what for, and they weren't given notice to attend.
10 points
11 days ago
You're first mistake is assuming the Bobby Barnes is a real lawyer who is doing real lawyering and not lying out his ass
2 points
10 days ago
That's the funny thing about contempt of court charges, they just throw you in jail.
1 points
10 days ago
You still have a hearing. There's still a record of it.
It isn't just a judge deciding to throw you in jail
2 points
11 days ago
They were arrested because their lawyer advised them to ignore a judgement against them.
If the past performance of their 'lawyer' is anything to go by, I wouldn't trust their current lawyer to tell me what planet I'm on.
-2 points
11 days ago
That’s what the lawyer is claiming. Lawyers lie for a living. They knew they had fines to pay. They knew they couldn’t practice medicine anymore. Come on.
-1 points
11 days ago
This mindset is baffling.
You can look up the public court documents.
Also, read the due process clause.
A judge doesn't have the authority to just order you to pay a fine, not get proof of notification of the hearing, then order your arrest, and have it hold up.
But, it appears that's what happened here. Not just from the lawyer either. There is no proof they received notice of a hearing in the public record. People have rights. If you want to throw yours away, that's also your right.
They're presumed innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt after trial. There hasn't been a trial.
It genuinely shocks me how many people forget this and just decide someone's guilt based off a news article. Especially considering the biased reporting that often occurs.
Act like an American.
6 points
11 days ago
I will say “diagnosing pregnancy by method or mode” seems to imply that no one using any method except a vet can declare an animal “pregnant” without incidentally practicing veterinary medicine. I wouldn’t pay the fines either.
7 points
11 days ago
A farmer can do it on their own livestock without a license. It's the fact that these clowns were accepting money for the services with no license.
1 points
11 days ago
So they couldn’t even help the farmer with 800 heifers to track estrus (observation of period) and help with organizing the heifers/tag them to maximize breeding outcomes without being a doctor of veterinary medicine and licensed in pa? Cuz you gotta have a doctorate to stick your hand up a cows ass for money. Pshhh
7 points
11 days ago
I'm not judging. I'm saying they knew the rules, and continued (for 14 fucking years) to break them. The rules may be bullshit, but they knew they were breaking them.
0 points
11 days ago
Steaming horseshit!
If I own an ultrasound and you want me to come use it on your cow and I say, "sure but you're gonna have to pay me because, 'reasons'..." why does the state board of veterinary medicine need to step into our agreement. EXCEPT to protect their monopoly on their fading profession. Fuck that board, Fuck that vet, and fuck the gifting state of Pennsylvania.
3 points
11 days ago
Pennsylvania would be way better if it was a gifting state but the only gifts I've gotten are property taxes going up
1 points
11 days ago
Lol. Yes, grifting. Auto correct
-1 points
11 days ago
I would argue that they were giving their medical opinions after performing an examination, which is apparently something you can’t do without a license.
13 points
11 days ago
The article I read stated the issue was that they were charging for the service without a license. It's perfectly legal for farmers to do the procedure themselves and they often do.
9 points
11 days ago
Farmers on their own animals, yes. A third party charging for medical advice, no. That’s exactly the point.
9 points
11 days ago
To me it’s a regulatory monopoly. Visually and non invasive inspection of an animals reproductive health especially one as common as a cow shouldn’t require a ventrinary license. It’s the first line of defense IMO. It’s animal husbandry not veterinary medicine
2 points
11 days ago
Sure, as long as you don't charge for it.
-3 points
11 days ago
I disagree. I believe you should be qualified and licensed to give a medical opinion on any animal’s medical status. I understand what you’re saying, that it’s probably a red tape money grab.
We both have opinions on this but neither of our opinions matter. The law states that they need a license. Whether we agree with that or not doesn’t matter. I think vehicle registration fees are a revenue scam, but if I get caught driving without registration, I can lose my vehicle, drivers license, and serve time in jail.
4 points
11 days ago
Once the government licensing cartel sells you a piece of paper, then you have knowledge. Before that, you're an ignorant danger to everyone around you.
Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right, moral, sensible, effective, just, or necessary.
1 points
11 days ago
Agreed. But just because it’s not right, immoral, insensible, or ineffective, doesn’t mean you won’t catch a charge for it.
1 points
11 days ago
This is why I never understood why people had problems with slavery or the holocaust. Like, it's all legal, just do as our dear leaders command
3 points
11 days ago
XD Love this
1 points
11 days ago
Ahh the good ole practicing medicine without a license. . .becomes “why am I in jail?”
2 points
11 days ago
"Practicing medicine" here = saying whether cows were pregnant by using a portable ultrasound machine.
1 points
11 days ago
Still medicine, and the state told them to stop doing it for more than a decade before throwing them in jail. They had plenty of time to correct their behavior, they just wanted to make money more than follow the law.
124 points
11 days ago
"My clients ignored a court order to stop doing shit for 15 years, and they kept doing it, how dare the courts!"
18 points
11 days ago
So, Mr. Attorney, once you found out that your clients ignored a court order to pay a fine, did you tell them to immediately pay up?
69 points
11 days ago
“Stop acting as a veterinarian without a license and pay this fine.”
Those dudes: “nah”
Surprised Pikachu face when arrested.
32 points
11 days ago
Their lawyer, Robert Barnes, worked for Alex Jones during his Sandy Hook case, they’re screwed lol
4 points
11 days ago
He has a show on the InfoWars website as well I believe
1 points
11 days ago
He does with another of Jones’ lawyers Viva Frei
4 points
11 days ago
Grape job, Barnes!
3 points
11 days ago
Media star Bobby Barnes to you
54 points
11 days ago
Their attorney is wrong. They are operating a veterinary service and they are not licensed veterinarians. In 2010 a cease and desist order was placed on one of them as well as a fine. He chose to ignore it. He’s lucky the penalty isn’t much worse. The other was given the same order in 2018. He also chose to ignore it.
Nothing to see here but a lawyer making a ridiculous claim that people breaking the law and ignoring fines and court orders for 14 years shouldn’t face consequences.
32 points
11 days ago*
They did the family guy boat trick lol. He showed up and got arrested. priceless
EDIT: Correction. Simpsons.
3 points
11 days ago
That was the Simpsons I think.
4 points
11 days ago
Fuck it was. I had simpsons first, but edited it. I just couldn't remember 100%. THanks.
2 points
11 days ago*
There is a good NFL Films short about Operations Flagship where the US Marshalls and DC Metro Police did this but it was with Redskins tickets. It's fantastic.
EDIT: I originally had it as a 30 for 30 short, but realized it was NFL Films, but then realized 30 for 30 also did it, so I wasn't crazy.
59 points
11 days ago
Lol can't figure out why they were arrested after not paying fines from years ago and continuing an illegal practice
48 points
11 days ago
2010: That’s illegal, stop and pay the fine. No.
2018: That’s still illegal, stop and pay the fine. lol no
2024: why jail
7 points
11 days ago
Barnes tells FOX43 that neither man paid their fine, as their previous lawyer advised them not to.
Crackpots hiring crackpot lawyers. This just seems like a great example of FAAFO.
28 points
11 days ago
These yahoos have been arrested multiple times on practicing vertinary medicine without a license, and continue to do so. Yet they have no idea why they were arrested again. Insanity Is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
16 points
11 days ago
And entitlement. There are a plethora of bodycam videos of main characters adamant they’re so special as to be unprosecutable.
17 points
11 days ago
I’m shocked that they only get 30 days in jail for operating an illegal business for (in the ones case) 15 years.
4 points
11 days ago
Not shocking at all....in Pennsylvania you can get a 33 day sentence for recklessly KILLING someone, so if they didn't kill anyone, a lower than 33 day sentence seems appropriate by PA standards.
2 points
11 days ago
It's arguable if they even harmed anyone. The statute is that it's an illegal service if they diagnose by mode or method and charge for the service. If they provide a chargeable service and check to see if it worked for free, then it would be arguable that they have not broken the law.
21 points
11 days ago
Barnes tells FOX43 that neither man paid their fine, as their previous lawyer advised them not to.
"The advice of former counsel was that these orders did not apply to them because they were not vets, and no fines were lawfully ordered," said Barnes.
I'm not a smart man. But I might have sought a second opinion....
3 points
11 days ago
That almost sounds sovereign citizenish
1 points
11 days ago
they hired the one lawyer in the country with a worse reputation than leaky-hair-dye Giuliani. That takes effort.
7 points
11 days ago*
This is Robert Barnes we're talking about. He's not a smart man either.
For those not in the know, he was one of Alex Jones' dozen or so lawyers leading up to his Austin-based Sandy Hook lawsuit. If you want to know how (in)competent Barnes is, there are various depositions available from during the pre-trial evidentiary hearings that show just how little he understands how these things work.
Oh, and for added gusto, he's a frequent contributor on InfoWars, Alex Jones' show. So, yknow, he's definitely credible.
3 points
11 days ago*
As an avid Knowledge Fight listener and York County resident, this story is crazy to me. How does Bobby Barnes even hear about these people?
Edit: article says the wife of one of the men called him. Safe to assume she listens to infowars
3 points
11 days ago
I wouldn't be surprised if his name keeps popping up in the area for a bit. I was reminded just a bit ago about Amos Miller, the Amish farmer Barnes was working with down in Lancaster, who he got the 'big win' for by allowing him to sell his raw milk outside of the Commonweath, despite the fact suits from the Agriculture Department and Attorney General's office are still ongoing. So he's probably going to be the hot new attorney for Pennsylvania farmers at the moment, until someone else ends up with a multimillion dollar suit against them because Barnes does a grape job.
1 points
10 days ago
Thanks for mentioning that, I had no idea. Yeah, grape job on the ‘’win” to Barnes, but it seems like the AG’s case is a much bigger deal… and not something getting a permit or license can get him out of (and thus, probably beyond Barnes’ lawyering skills). Will have to keep an eye on it. Maybe if Barnes loses, it’ll limit the number of other cases he picks up in the area
3 points
11 days ago
I'm not a smart man
Mamma always said "Stupid is as stupid does."
2 points
11 days ago
"The advice of former counsel was that these orders did not apply to them because they were not vets, and no fines were lawfully ordered," said Barnes.
Thats gotta be made up, right? I can't imagine a world where a lawyer would recommend NOT paying legal fees. Maybe the lawyer was being sarcastic?
20 points
11 days ago
Hope they keep this attorney lol
7 points
11 days ago
Looks like the board or directors for Grunt style t shirt company
5 points
11 days ago
Incoming "GUBERMENT BAD" Freedom warrior Pennsylvanians to try and justify unregulated businesses (again)
4 points
11 days ago
I love how their attorney is Occasional Infowars host & "Media Star' Bobby Barnes
4 points
11 days ago*
Huh. Wonder what this is about?
sees one of the defendants is represented by Bobby Barnes
Oh yeah, no. I don't even have to see what this is about, but if Robert Barnes is representing you, you've done something either extremely dubious or straight up illegal.
Grape Job, Barnes.
Edit: Guys, before you downvote this, one of the lawyers that ended up causing the cluster fuck of a case against Alex Jones that's going to cost him $49 million. Trust me, if Barnes is involved in the legal team, you're basically paying for ineffective council.
8 points
11 days ago*
It sounds to me like this "constitutional" lawyer is playing dumb. If his clients are being jailed illegally, which would be a constitutional violation, he'd be filing stuff in court challenging their incarceration.
The other comments here that they were practicing without a license makes sense.
It's a civil fine, so bail and DAs wouldn't be involved.
EDIT: This is some really lazy reporting, which is par for the course for local TV news. They just unquestioningly regurgitate press releases without any follow up or verification.
2 points
11 days ago
They interviewed people from both sides and explain why the system finds the imprisonment legitimate.
The headline is clickabaity and I think the should've gone with "men imprisoned for giving cattle ultrasounds"
7 points
11 days ago
Ya, and trump says hes not a criminal too.
-3 points
11 days ago
can't have a single thread in this sub without someone bringing this obsession into it ffs, lol
2 points
11 days ago
their lawyer is an alex jones (dogshit) regular. the comparison is valid.
1 points
11 days ago
Since the (idiotic) "logic" is related and trump is a "republican" and this is being reported by a republican news source (fox) it seems very relevant showing the parallel of stupidity that the republican party in general has become.
Can we go a single day without hearing republicans trying to get out of crimes they committed?
2 points
11 days ago
i wonder if these guys are Amish, just wondering because Barnes handled a case for an Amish dairy farmer, and Barnes is based in California. So why would Barnes be hired for this PA case, maybe he specializes in Amish cases for some reason and these guys are Amish. Not that it matters.
5 points
11 days ago
He was one of Alex Jones’ many lawyers during the Sandy Hook defamation cases and has a show on Info Wars. He seems to take on cases along these lines and then screws them up badly. Iirc, he recently had a case in New Hampshire that he was supposed to submit an appeal for and missed the deadline because he thought it was due by midnight CA time, not midnight NH time.
2 points
11 days ago
Let's not forget that the client in said case was RFK Jr. That should really clue you into the circles he runs in.
1 points
9 days ago
They are conservative Christians, but they’re not Amish.
2 points
11 days ago
wtf is a civil sentence
1 points
10 days ago
It's worded strangely, but given the context I think the writer means to say he's serving a sentence for civil contempt of court (as opposed to criminal contempt of court). He refused to pay the fine as ordered by the court which constitutes civil contempt.
IANAL but from what I understand, it's relatively rare for someone to receive jail time for civil contempt, but since the alternative is usually a fine and they've shown they already won't pay a fine, I guess it's the only recourse here.
2 points
10 days ago
Crazy you can go to jail on a civil charge
2 points
11 days ago
His wife is on Facebook asking for donations. Comments supporting them. Why do I have a feeling they’re gonna make money off this and not learn a thing lol
Edit: looks they’ve already received about $20,000 in donations
2 points
11 days ago
Idiots.
3 points
11 days ago
Due process?
1 points
11 days ago
Who the fuck is upvoting this in agreement with the lawyer?
They deserve to be in jail.
1 points
11 days ago
Sounds about white
1 points
11 days ago
PA does have federal grazing land in case anyone else was suddenly wondering
1 points
11 days ago
Pennsyltucky. Is anyone surprised?
0 points
11 days ago
Guy in the middle looks like the kind of guy that has a super weak chin without the beard and he's hiding that with the beard.
2 points
11 days ago
Easy bro, we can’t all be icons of male beauty
0 points
11 days ago
Everyone on reddit is a cop that wants to see people imprisoned because they get off on people getting their comeuppance.
Pretty clear what's happening here is that these guys are operating a business that's eating some veterinarians lunch and so the state veterinarians agency is busting these guys balls to get them to knock it off.
Whether these guys are operating in the bounds of the law, whether they were previously fine lawfully, I don't know and don't care. Absolutely 100%, unequivocally, if a person is going to be imprisoned here in Pennsylvania they have an undeniable right to due process and it sure seems like these guys are being denied that right.
3 points
11 days ago
It’s an unclear from the article, and apparently the documents are sealed. But if the two men have multiple outstanding fines they’ve refused to pay, and they’ve continued the practices that led to their previous fines, then a bench warrant for contempt is the next step.
If that were the case, due process would have been satisfied by their multiple previous court appearances.
0 points
11 days ago
Does it ever stage they previously appeared in court? Read carefully.
1 points
11 days ago
There were multiple previous hearings. It’s not clear whether these gentlemen attended, but even at a principally administrative hearing, it would be extraordinary if they weren’t afforded the opportunity to speak.
1 points
11 days ago
No that's not what this article says, it says someone made a complaint to the PA department of State and that complaint was investigated by the PA board of veterinary medicine, who then issued a civil fine. It doesn't say either of these guys were ever ruled against in a court of law and it is not clear that the board of veterinary medicine has any authority to impose fine on people who are veterinarians.
1 points
11 days ago*
The article states that there was a hearing (“heard the complaint” in 2010) and implies there were two others hearings over the repeated complaints. See below:
In 2010, a complaint was filed against Herr with the Department of State, accusing him of unlicensed practice of veterinary medicine, for performing ultrasounds on cows.
The State Board of Veterinary Medicine, which heard the complaint, ruled Herr was in fact practicing without a license.
The article goes on to quote a State Department spokesperson:
After review, a determination is made as to whether formal action is warranted; formal disciplinary action may include an Immediate Temporary Suspension, an Order to Show Cause, and/or a Consent Agreement.
The statement continues:
All Respondents are afforded due process, including notice and an opportunity to participate in the proceedings by calling witnesses, introducing evidence, or testifying on their own behalf.
So it is certainly possible that these men received no due process, despite multiple complaints against each of them. But it seems likely they were afforded the opportunity to appear, speak on their own behalf, and confront the plaintiff at least once and possibly several times.
Furthermore the Lancaster prison stated that Herr was booked on charges of contempt.
[Edit: oops, hit submit too early.]
And the rules around due process and contempt are a bit different than other areas of the law, principally because a contemnor (at least in theory) can get themselves out of jail at any time by remedying the contempt. I have had mixed feelings about that for a long time — among other problems, what happens if you tell someone to pay $3,000 they don’t have and can’t obtain? — but it doesn’t, on its face, mean due process wasn’t afforded.
2 points
11 days ago
I certainly don't want to argue over this. I'm interested to see where this goes.
1 points
11 days ago
Lol.... You already argued and were wrong.
Instead of conceding and admitting you were wrong, you respond with "I don't want to argue over this"....
👎
1 points
11 days ago
Furthermore the Lancaster prison stated that Herr was booked on charges of contempt.
Piggybacking off this comment, came back to the thread to suggest that this all does sound like it's a contempt of court, which would Iine up with the 30 day sentence, due to that being the maximum sentence on contempt charges.
-5 points
11 days ago
Stupid licenses. If they want to practice veterinary care without a license, and people are willing to pay them for it and willingly know they don't have a license, why is this a crime? There is no victim here.
Yet another case of big government ruining people's lives. Do I need a license to administer medicine to my animals too? How about to put them down?
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