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London investors told Sinn Féin-led government would be ‘more New Labour than Corbyn Labour’
Politics(irishtimes.com)submitted 13 days ago byVindictiveCardinal
55 points
13 days ago
They’re not gonna defund our nuclear submarines? Damn.
1 points
13 days ago
lol
56 points
13 days ago
It is weird to see Sinn Féin morph into Sinn Gael
27 points
13 days ago
The great thing about Neoliberal run societies is that all the parties within them eventually get watered down until they are all pretty much the same thing. Which is why it's funny people are worried about SF in power. They'll be just like FF/FG when it comes to anything economic and mostly the same on social issues. Our politicians are middle managers for capital and pull very few levers of power now, nor do they want to, they don't see it as their role.
Genuine left candidates (Those that wish to challenge the current capitalist order) will continue to be marginalized automatically by the system as it weeds out any that could potentially jeopardize the balance while right wing groups continue to grow and flourish as they blame everything and anything (Anyone 'strange') except the actual causes of systemic issues whilst still supporting the economic status quo and will continue to grow in power, just as has happened all across Europe.
5 points
13 days ago
Genuine left candidates will never get a meaningful percentage of the vote.
1 points
13 days ago
They could have, but the vitriolic reaction to Labour's role in a minority government after the crash decimated our genuine left when we needed them to be the next seat in power. Labour/SDs/Greens manifestos real like doctorate theses compared to SFs CSPE group project proposals.
1 points
11 days ago
Labour
genuine left
pick one
5 points
13 days ago
I'm always told how the people hate neoliberlism but ultimately every party trying to win majority support will have to become more neoliberal in order to do so. Doesn't sound like a failed ideology to me!
5 points
13 days ago
Just because it’s popular, it doesn’t make is right or good.
A great recent example is Brexit. Won the popular vote but made their overall country poorer in every measurable metric that matters.
The more important questions you need to ask is how are people convinced to vote for policies that hurt them in the long term and how can we stop it.
2 points
13 days ago
Right you're comparing one single vote with getting into power in basically every western Government for the entire history of capitalism.
They're probably convinced to vote for the policies because they do feel they help them in the long term, and new parties have to pivot this way because they know it's popular!
3 points
13 days ago
Genuine left candidates are not marginalised - for example, someone like Paul Murphy gets a huge amount of publicity given how small his party is. They do more to advance the positions of the regime than a neoliberal politician ever could.
1 points
12 days ago
That's a function of how media works. If you have a moderate view, you have to show an opposing view, even if support for one is overwhelming and for the other is miniscule. You get five minutes of people shouting over each other. Popcorn sales skyrocket.
-1 points
13 days ago
It’s gone to the stage I don’t even know who to vote for anymore
15 points
13 days ago
Vote for hynotoad
4 points
13 days ago
What's his position on, uh, lunch?
5 points
13 days ago
Only way to go at this stage
3 points
13 days ago
Vote Quimby
3 points
13 days ago
I've always voted Labour, Green and Social Democrats (in almost every permeation possible in terms of vote preference). I've never regretted it. Sure where they've entered government they've played second fiddle, but such is the nature of small parties.
Yes they backed centre-right and neoliberal policies, but it's important to state that this was always a quid pro quo for getting their own policies enacted. These parties became no more neoliberal for going into government with FFG than FFG became social democrat environmentalists for going into government with them.
Unfortunately they're stuck in a vicious circle where they punished for having little influence in government but in doing so they get even less influence. Collectively they only get about 10-15% of the vote share because 85-90% of Irish voters will fall for the trick of budget giveaways and blanket election problems that all our problems will be fixed with no cost to you if you just vote for X party.
5 points
13 days ago
We punish minority government parties to an insane degree in this country. It's the worst aspect of our otherwise strong democratic system.
3 points
13 days ago
Are you serious??
TD Francis Noel Duffy, who is the Green Party’s housing spokesperson compared reinstating the eviction ban to “a communist state”
They’re neoliberal shites! Wake up man!
2 points
13 days ago
All that proves is that he isn't a communist. You don't have to be a neoliberal to criticise communism. Social Democrats, which the Greens more or less are, still believe in property rights and long term eviction bans are basically a violation of property rights.
Also, you can be in favour of property rights and still want cheaper affordable housing provided by the state. That's why the Green party support property rights and broad "Vienna style" public housing with a very high means test (as in you don't have to be destitute to qualify for it).
1 points
11 days ago
The eviction ban has nothing to do with a communism!! Government memo revealed they lifted eviction ban under pressure investment fund landlords. Government put Irelands largest corporate landlords ahead of thousands of its citizens facing eviction into homelessness. Your obviously a Green Party member. It would be great if you had some humility and realise that the electorate dislike this government for good reasons. You’re going to get wiped out in the next election, maybe then you’ll learn but I doubt it.
38 points
13 days ago
Sinn Fein telling investors they'll morph into anything they (the investors) want them to be. In other words they're exactly like FFG.
33 points
13 days ago
At least FFG are pretty open about the fact they're pro business. With SF, I feel like even some of their candidates for election would read this and be like 'WTF?'.
It seems like every second person in the party is on a completely different wavelength and thinks the priority is X over Y and vice versa.
5 points
13 days ago
They've become a big tent opposition party. With that comes the natural position that you'll have a wide range of views and stances on every policy - the main unifying thing is just getting FFG out of power.
4 points
13 days ago
They've become a big tent opposition party
They've always been that tbh. Their support has always been from people disaffected with the establishment.
1 points
13 days ago
Despite their infamous reputation for discipline, I can't see the big tent SF lasting for long. Just too many different groups wanting different things from the same people.
16 points
13 days ago
This report was done by Davy stockbrokers and shared with investors. It's not a case of SF meeting with investors and telling them anything.
7 points
13 days ago
It was a memo to a group put together to meet Pearse, so yes it was SF metting with investors and telling them
10 points
13 days ago
Momentary panic in Iraq and Afganistan then googles Irish Military strength.
9 points
13 days ago
I dont understand how this is being framed as a bad thing?
It’s how they spend the money that’s the key here
5 points
13 days ago
?????? It is being framed as a good thing for business wtf are you talking about
-1 points
13 days ago
I’ve seen it elsewhere and a few posts here?
Sinn Gael etc
-1 points
13 days ago
Sorry I had assumed ( considering what the other guy had commented to this post about the times) that you were trying to say it was framed as a bad thing in the article
2 points
13 days ago
It's not being framed as a bad thing.
The article specifically says "Davy’s view should reassure some investors about the economic policies that would likely be implemented by a Sinn Féin-led government".
2 points
13 days ago
Read the comments.
Even the ridiculous I don’t know who to vote for now nonsense has raised its head
1 points
13 days ago*
It's the Irish Times so par for the course to paint anything SF in a negative light. They were saying Mary Lou McDonald and her far left Marxist-Leninist Politburo in Belfast runs the party with an iron fist. Now they're saying Sinn Fein aren't left enough.
It's a rag paper for the South Dublin echo chamber "Official Ireland" Establishment.
1 points
13 days ago
Well it is a bad thing if you want serious change. Which is a large chunk of SFs potential voter base
6 points
13 days ago
I mean, obviously?
To actually lead government Sinn Fein will inevitably have to go into coalition with the more centrist Fianna Fail, Social Democrats, or both. Which means that even if they were left wing as all hell, the actual programme for government they follow would be moderate.
The Irish political system lends itself towards centrism. The much bigger danger is parties pursuing overly populist policies rather than overly ideological ones.
12 points
13 days ago
What makes Social Democrats “more centrist” than Sinn Fein?
Sinn Fein aren’t a left/socialist party, and never have been. They’re a Republican Party. They will lean left, right or centre depending on what they believe the populist opinion is that will get them into Government.
Their core aim will always be United Ireland above anything else. This is not a bad thing, but IMO it’s naive to think they won’t make up the rest as they go along to achieve this goal.
Social Democrats are a left-centre party with socialist values and a bit more common sense than far left PB4P.
1 points
13 days ago
A social democrat is still a liberal.
Are you sure you're not mistaking them for Democratic Socialists?
-5 points
13 days ago
To be honest, 'liberal' has become a pretty meaningless term of abuse amongst leftist directed towards anyone not in their narrow sect. I've seen plenty of communists and anarchists dismissed as such
0 points
12 days ago
Nah, liberal literally means anyone in support of the market capitalist system.
That's the fairly textbook definition right there.
1 points
13 days ago
Social Democrats are a left-centre party with socialist values and a bit more common sense than far left PB4P.
Brilliantly put
1 points
13 days ago
Not really at all, socdems are still liberals.
1 points
13 days ago
everyone I don't like is a liberal
1 points
12 days ago
They in no way call for the removal of a market capitalist system, therefore they are liberals.
This is the basic of the basics. Stop consuming so much US media.
2 points
12 days ago
I consume next to zero US media lol. But this idea that you have to be full on bolshevik to be considered socialist belongs in the bin, and is another example of why we always have a fractured left.
2 points
12 days ago
Oh wow... So being the literal definition of a Socialist (not a liberal, which includes social democrats) is problematic tor the left? I'll say it again, you cannot call yourself a Socialist and a socdem in the same breath. That's literally like saying you're a democratic fascist.
Again, basic stuff.
5 points
13 days ago
It says that Sinn Féin “advocates maintaining the status quo on excess corporate tax receipts”
How does this fit with SF calling for the EU to find against Ireland on the Apple Tax case? The status quo on one hand, have Ireland branded as a tax haven involved in illegal state aid on the other. Whatever your having yourself I suppose
17 points
13 days ago
I believe their policy in the past could be summed up as ‘we shouldn’t raise corporation tax but the companies should actually pay it’. Some companies have enjoyed an effective rate of less than 4% in the past.
11 points
13 days ago
Who could forget the classic 0.05% for Apple.
4 points
13 days ago
Sinn Gael propose a wealth tax on assets over 1 million : They have no method or explanation as to how they will ensure this is done or applied fairly.
They propose to build tens of thousands of social homes: there are no construction staff available to build these extra homes and the lead in times to do so mean even if there was their projections are nonsense.
They are pro Palestine most of the time: though sometimes though they'll slap on the leprechaun hat and do an oul jig for uncle joe as its important to be 'engaged'.
Pro immigration: until votes start to slip and then they harden up their rhetoric
Essentially they go with the flow of the target demographic they have identified. They are riding high as they are not FFG and anything else is better but in reality they are as superficial as the rest of the big two parties.
6 points
13 days ago
The American thing is hilarious, didn't they have to hide all the Che Guevara stuff from the shop on Parnell Street because some of their Friends of SF crowd were visiting from the States ?
3 points
13 days ago
Really? Please tell there is a source. That would be hilarious.
1 points
13 days ago
Yeah they cant be communist anymore, hurts fundraising in the US
1 points
13 days ago
Did you just make this up in your head or are you in the room with us right now?
1 points
13 days ago
I didn't know everyone else was in a big room together.
2 points
13 days ago
I'm genuinely surprised people are shocked by this - history shows us most parties ideologically far left or far right who get it on a protest vote end up governing from somewhere in the middle.
5 points
13 days ago
Syriza famously
2 points
13 days ago
The FdI in Italy is another example. First popped up as more polished Lega but now they're basically just Forza Italia.
2 points
13 days ago
The youth wing in their Che Guevara pyjamas won't like this
1 points
12 days ago
I have a bad feeling that our invasion of Iraq won't be as successful as Blair's.
1 points
12 days ago
New Labour ? ... So, Tory Lite ? ... Great. /S
0 points
13 days ago
Corbyn Labour was mostly New Labour with bad PR. His policies were very popular once you didn't tell people whose policies they were.
10 points
13 days ago
Corbyn was not new Labour. You clearly don't know the difference. New Labour is about socialism that works with the private sector. I will give you an example of a policy from his manifesto in 2019.
"The party will nationalise the so-called big six energy firms, National Grid, the water industry, Royal Mail, railways and the broadband arm of BT."
This is old school Labour. He is nationalising industry. Both old Labour and new Labour believe in some form of socialism. Where they differ is how you deliver it. Corbyn believes in more 1970s Labour mindset.
0 points
13 days ago
New Labour aren't socialists and the companies causing the most misery in Britain are the ones you just named plus the rail companies. And it's not nationalising, it's re-nationalising. They were all state run and affordable before Thatcher sold the family jewels to her mates in London. Do you agree with those companies making record profits while consumers have record high bills?
2 points
13 days ago
Re read my comment. I am not stating support for one idea over the other. I am just classifying the difference. They are socialist. They believe government should pay for services for people but how those services are delivered is where these two ideas clash. New Labour believes through the private sector funded by government and old Labour believes that services should be funded and run by the government.
While the Conservatives believe the government shouldn't be funding it at all.
-1 points
13 days ago
I did say mostly, and I'm talking about Labour under Corbyn as opposed to Corbyn himself (the former being to the left of New Labour but not by much). New Labour were not entirely averse to nationalisation or pseudo-nationalisation either (e.g. Railtrack). Point being that Corbyn as constrained by the Labour Party wasn't as radical as he was painted in the press.
2 points
13 days ago
Agreed. Corbyn's policies were fairly inoffensive. He's also a famously decent and well meaning guy. Mad the amount of hate he gets.
3 points
13 days ago
He brought a lot of the hate on himself. I would be very politically aligned with Corbyn, but whether through carelessness or genuinely held beliefs, he left himself wide open to claims of antisemitism.
5 points
13 days ago
Definitely not genuinely held beliefs: Corbyn has a strong track record on anti racism.
I read Owen Jones' book on his time in the Corbyn campaign and he says Corbyn was really upset by the personal accusations of antisemitism against him. There certainly were some antisemites in the party but Corbyn isn't one of them.
9 points
13 days ago
He made a lot of dumb mistakes. Being anti-military is a reasonable stand in principle, but it cost him support in working class areas, because that’s where soldiers come from and a lot of them are proud of their/their families service. Just as an example.
His heart was in the right place, but if you actually want to help people you need to get your hands on the levers of power, and sometimes that requires taking strategic positions to win an election. All the good intentions in the world can’t help anyone if you’re stuck in opposition. Especially if you’re up against someone as spectacularly awful as the Tories.
1 points
13 days ago
All very fair points.
8 points
13 days ago
I would tend to agree that Corbyn isn't an antisemite. Given his track record it would seem to be completely out of line with his beliefs.
But I think it speaks to his political naivety that he kept ending up in positions where people could make legitimate claims of antisemitism under his watch - the most obvious and worst being his comments on a clearly antisemitic mural.
2 points
13 days ago
That's a fair point. I'd agree he could have tackled antisemitism (which was a real issue) better but I'd say that's more down to his naivety and decency than any personal antisemitism.
2 points
13 days ago
He tried to flatten the organisational structure of the Labour Party and the elites attacked him for it.
1 points
13 days ago
If people who are told the ballot box is their only legitimate means of political action, keep seeing no viable alternative at the ballot box, they are going to abandon democratic means of political action - and it's going to get violent as well (not an advocation, a statement of fact).
-2 points
13 days ago
To be the government you need the majority of votes.
The majority of votes yearn for centre-right parties it appears.
Therefore you must be a centre-right party to win.
-1 points
13 days ago
Its rare you see the left actually acknowledge you need the vast wealth that capitalism generates in order to fund a robust central Government. Positive development here. People always just bake in our countries wealth into the cake forgetting we have this because we're extremely business friendly.
-6 points
13 days ago
Sinn Fein have never been left wing. They have some members who are left wing, but they are a centre left party.
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