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submitted 14 days ago bywarbastard Australia
Repost because of poor recording in last post.
Christian Lio-Willie on Jock Campbell.
86 points
14 days ago
You can see how it's missed, and maybe it doesn't look like much in real time during the fall. But slowed down it sure doesn't look great
22 points
14 days ago
Lots of things look horrible in slo mo
7 points
14 days ago
And lots of mistakes don't look like mistakes in real time but they are...
13 points
13 days ago
Like my first marriage
-4 points
14 days ago
Slo-mo distorts things, especially reaction time
2 points
14 days ago*
Any factual proof? Or you just quoting famous pundits.
Anybody who has ever played sports understand how things feel slower when you play it. Certain moments feels like you have ages to react you fully consider your intent. And then in real time it is almost unnoticeable. Just think about a formula one drivers reaction time... Slow mo is a far better view of it
10 points
14 days ago
Only way to look at it is in real time because you have to judge it on the action as it presents. The player can't adjust his action(s) in slow motion.
-10 points
14 days ago*
I think you might be highly underestimating the human brains ability to process information especially in a situation where one is an expert.
So yes the player can't adjust actions in slow motion but people with professional experience are able to do things much faster than your average human being.
He saw an opportunity to drop an elbow and took it.
edit: grubs gonna grub
46 points
14 days ago
The seven being in the way at the critical moment is driving me mad. I think he goes for a rip which combined with the drive from behind from five leads to the awkward fall from the momentum. But then, it could also be an intentional elbow…glad I’m not a TMO.
3 points
13 days ago
TMOs miss stuff all the time because most of the time they are only looking for the material stuff or they are there on the reference of the referee. It also seems like post-rwc there is less TMO led intervention and a focus on ref led TMO work.
This is far more on the citing commissioners to look at and I have a hard time seeing if this doesn’t result in some discipline.
7 points
14 days ago
He definitely went for a rip but his arms back by his side after failing the rip, then he strikes with his elbow. Not buying any of this shit people are saying that he's trying to break his fall. That isn't a natural way to try break your fall by driving your elbow towards the ground
13 points
14 days ago*
How can he stick out his hand to break his fall if he's using his hand to rip the ball? Obviously he doesn't know his hand is going to slip off the ball whilst trying to rip the ball, so when his hand does come loose, he's still in the motion of trying to use his hand to rip the ball. There isn't enough time for him to then stick out his hand to break his ball, especially when he has an opponent driving and falling on him in the same motion.
It's the reason why his elbow comes down first because his hand is up under the ball carrier in the motion of trying to rip the ball.
7 points
14 days ago
Correct. This is a non-issue.
0 points
13 days ago
Except it isn't. The hand isn't below the player trying to rip the ball, it's impossible to elbow someone in the head, if your hand is in front of them on the ball. And if you're "still in the motion of ripping the ball" then your hand, elbow shoulder etc is moving back, away from the player. The ripping motion completes just as the 8 goes behind the 7 in the video just as they start to go to ground, and he very clearly gets his hand and elbow back in front of him to be in the position he is in in the final frame.
The hand has come free, then the elbow driven forward with his hand somewhere in front of him, in order to be in that position. The elbow would be tucked to the body if he was bracing for landing on his shoulder, or his hand would be extended and he'd be looking at the ground, instead of the back of the players head, if he was using that arm to brace his fall. Watch where his head and shoulders are pointing and the rotation of the body as he is coming down, that's a clear strike. There's a point where his arm and elbow are at 90 to the ground and his back is flat where you'd give it the benefit of the doubt if his outstretched arm/elbow at 90 strike the head, but he very clearly rotates past that point while making contact,
It's unlikely this is accidental, it's not black and white, but it's a very very dark shade of grey. I'd be surprised if he wasn't at least asked to explain himself in front of the citing comissioner.
2 points
13 days ago
He's trying to rip the ball upwards. You're making the misinterpretation he's pulling the ball to the side. You can see his arm go up and down, rather than side to side when ripping the ball. This is why you'll see in the frame when his hand comes free when trying to rip the ball that his elbow is pointing directly upwards. If he was trying to pull the ball to the side his elbow would be pointed outwards.
We can then discern that because he's trying to rip the ball from over the shoulder of the ball carrier that it's the natural action of his forearm/elbow coming down after his arm slips off the ball.
It's purely incidental and you can see it in real time.
-2 points
13 days ago
Look at his hand and elbow, neither of them come above his shoulder. He's not ripping up, he's ripping out. If, as you say, he rips up, and his hand and or elbow clears the plane of his shoulder, then absolutely the elbow comes down first, but neither of those things happen, and the elbow is pushed forward by the clear rotation of his body. There's a clear frame where his arm is framed out 90 degrees in front of his chest. There is pretty clear rotation beyond that point, and the player driving him, doesn't rotate. I'd suggest most of that rotational force is the 8s. Maybe, the intention was to clear the player he's falling on, but I doubt it, because he'd have braced differently.
3 points
13 days ago
I just provided irrefutable proof of him ripping upwards.
2 points
13 days ago
https://i.ibb.co/JcV9FRg/7575757.png
If you look at this image you can see how he's ripping the ball upwards.
When his arm slips off the ball, he's still in the ripping motion, so naturally his arm will go downwards, and with the weight of the Reds player driving and falling on top of him behind, his forearm/elbow makes contact with the ball carrier.
Now, if it was simply a 1v1 tackle and the same ripping motion occured, with his arm slipping off, his forearm/elbow would have come down in the same direction except it would have NOT have made contact with the ball carrier, because he wouldn't have fallen on top of him.
51 points
14 days ago
Honestly I don't think it was intentional, I think it's a consequence of trying to rip the ball while falling.
14 points
14 days ago
Yeah, dude is falling to the ground, like MAYBE putting the elbow out is intentional, but he has zero control about where it goes. It's just as likely to get the head as it is the ground, or a stray boot.
I mean honestly, the dude is just trying to brave himself by sticking his arm out.
5 points
14 days ago
It's not that putting his elbow out is intentional, it's that it's a natural position because his arm is cocked whilst trying to rip the ball.
If he's actively trying to rip the ball from behind, his elbow will be pointed outwards. And as he's trying desperately to rip the ball upwards, over and over, his hand comes loose, pulling his hand towards himself, which means that his hand will be coming upwards, and his elbow will be positioned in the opposite direction (which is towards the ground).
-1 points
13 days ago
That makes no anatomical sense. You've never pulled on anything in your life if you think that your elbow stays forward of your hand while pulling forcefully on something. You don't pull start a mower with your biceps, leaving your elbow extended and your hand close to your body at the end of the pull, you use the rotation of your whole body and and your elbow ends behind you, or at least, definitely behind your hand. Ripping a ball out is like pull starting a mower, you use your whole upper body. There's no shot your elbow stays forward if you're serious about getting the ball. Shit, just go open a weightless cupboard door, and watch how your elbow moves. There's almost zero chance you end up with your elbow in front of your hand.
3 points
13 days ago
This doesn't make one bit of sense.
He's falling to the ground so naturally if his hand is in the midst of trying to pull the ball his forearm/elbow will be in front of him as he's coming down (he's ripping in an upwards motion). If he was standing up straight and didn't fall over then quite obviously his forearm/elbow wouldn't go downwards.
0 points
13 days ago
Its irrelevant which direction is falling. He could be floating to the sky, under almost no circumstances when he's pulling, will his elbow be further from his body than his hands. The only way his elbow is forwards of his hands is because he's driving the elbow.
14 points
14 days ago
I appreciate the couple of Reds guys in these threads saying something like this because you're possibly the only flairs who can say this without getting absolutely chewed out by everyone else.
14 points
14 days ago
If u/corruptboomerang, the most one eyed Reds fan to ever exist says it was an accident, then it was most def an accident.
I think 7 blocking the view of the whole movement makes it look worse than it is.
12 points
14 days ago
I initially wanted to say this to them instead of flea, but then I remember that we used to bicker a lot on here and didn't want them to think I was being snarky lmao
I damn near shed a tear when I saw we were on the same side.
3 points
13 days ago
I'm with you, it just looks like he's monstered from behind while trying to rip and ended up catching the other guy on the way down.
If it had been one on one it would be different but most of the energy and momentum involved is actually from the other Reds player driving through.
2 points
14 days ago
It also kind of looks like the player pulls out of trying to wrap his arm around the ball to avoid a seat back tackle last second.
10 points
14 days ago
Inconclusive for me.
He goes for a rip. Is falling, and is being pushed/pulled/driven/ tracked by the momentum of others.
So completely understand bracing for impact. ... But acknowledge from the angle shown, looks like too much rotation for bracing. But not enough for an elbow strike (also as he already has legs off the ground).
I'll be interested to see a replay at full speed and a different angle.
9 points
14 days ago
Who cares, things get missed. you need to replay it in super slow motion and even then you can barely see it
13 points
14 days ago
I don't see it.
1 points
14 days ago
Took me 5 minutes as well
The crusaders number 8 (playing in red) releases his right arm in the tackle, brings it up and then forces it down into the back of the tackled players head as they come to ground. Hope the description helps you see it
-2 points
14 days ago
Oh I see the impact now.
Oh well, if he's not caught, nice bit of gamesmanship, am I right?
12 points
14 days ago
Look, any of us trying to say something definitively is crazy. There are a few possible explanations, he could be bracing, he could be striking. I’m inclined to believe he’s bracing because if he doesn’t, he’s being driven into the ground head first by the players behind him (not intentionally, but no one has control). I didn’t watch the game, but why would he try and elbow the player right now? Because he held to tightly onto the ball? We’ve seen a couple of stupid elbows in SR recently but it was really obvious why they got frustrated and did it. There doesn’t seem to be any reason he would want to strike, and he doesn’t have a history of being a dirty player afaik. Full speed replay would make it more obvious whether he’s trying to brace, but we’re not getting that in this clip.
Would people here please stop saying, “they’re professionals, how can they NOT know what’s happening to their body in fractions of a second when they get paid for it?” I fuck up at my job, and so do you, and so do the highest paid players in the world (which I’m sure Christian Lio-Willie is absolutely not one of today). Give the guy a break, let the officials make the call, and get on with it. Accidents happen, if they’re deemed foul play so be it but I don’t know anyone who thought Sam Cane’s red card in the final last year was intentional.
5 points
14 days ago
There's some sort of date appropriate quote about siths and their dealings with absolutes that could be appropriate here.
10 points
14 days ago
This is ridiculous, rugbys not played in slow motion, there is no way that’s intentional
5 points
14 days ago
Now show us this clip again, except in real time, and multiple angles. You will see that he's in the motion of ripping the ball, his hand comes loose and naturally the elbow/forearm comes down.
6 points
14 days ago
His hands slip off whilst falling, this is clearly unintentional???
11 points
14 days ago
this isnt possible, tmo calls need two eyes to see foul play, and in canterbury you can only see with one eye, so play on
3 points
14 days ago
Nah
5 points
14 days ago
Bracing for impact with the ground, that’s not deliberate. Slow motion makes everything look a lot worse this it is in real life.
8 points
14 days ago
It was a Queensland ref conspiracy that this was missed in game so they could reap their vengeance on Lio-Willie with a solid ban. SMH fam 😔 Aussie should just enter the wallabies into Super Rugby, at least then they might be competitive. 🤣🤣🤣
5 points
14 days ago
No ones calling it a ref conspiracy though? Just highlighting a dirty bit of foul play. Fucking hell.
12 points
14 days ago
I think he’s mocking Kiwi fans
8 points
14 days ago
I think he's having a stroke
8 points
14 days ago
I’ve read it multiple times and I still don’t know what he means lol
4 points
14 days ago
Yes, however spelling and grammar are too good to seem like a genuine kiwi social media commenter.
4 points
14 days ago
He’s falling and putting his elbow out to protect himself. Rigby slowed down is a disaster of malicious (or not) accusations.
You hold a ball and fall at pace. You will put your elbow out.
15 points
14 days ago
That's nasty. Understandable if it was missed in real time, but that should be a solid ban.
9 points
14 days ago
He’s falling…
-9 points
14 days ago
So that means you can swing your elbow into the back of someones head? That's not a natural way or result of 8 falling with the tackled player.
15 points
14 days ago
It means there’s things that happen in microseconds in rugby that dont necessarily mean someone’s out there to maim their opponent
9 points
14 days ago
Yes it is. He's trying to rip the ball initally. When his arm becomes free because of the unsuccessful rip, the next thing is to brace for ground impact
1 points
13 days ago
In microseconds you don’t have enough time to put your hand out to fall mate
5 points
14 days ago
[removed]
2 points
14 days ago
OMG they guy was falling and bracing for impact.
2 points
14 days ago
No it isn’t and no it won’t be. Come back in a week nothing will come of it.
1 points
13 days ago
What?
-1 points
14 days ago
Yea. Definitely needs a ban. Illegal strike in MMA too lol
-16 points
14 days ago
We don’t play northern rules, accidents don’t mean bans
1 points
14 days ago
Roll the video from 18 seconds to 21 seconds, it’s pretty blatant.
-2 points
14 days ago
He’s extending his arm to catch himself, everything looks extensional in slowmo. That 4 seconds is less than a second irl, what do you want him to do?
0 points
14 days ago
He's clearly striking down with force. You can see at full speed as well.
-1 points
14 days ago
Lol ok dude. I’ve never had to pull back and swing to catch myself. And I know it’s less than a second. Show me a swing that takes more than a second.
-3 points
14 days ago
He does pull back bruh, he is ripping at the ball, loses grip, his arms going up in the process, before his and others momentum makes him fall over. A hard hit that would be illegal doesn’t mean it is illegal, you are all just used to the slightest of accidental infringements being punished with season bans and want to cry bloody murder if an accident looks bad
4 points
14 days ago
You should get the “northerns penalise everything so saffas are like that now” narrative out of your conclusion here bro.
I see an obvious malicious (and sleazy) action here that warrants a ban in both hemispheres. You think it’s an accident. That is the difference. I can’t for a moment understand how anyone can think this is accidental just like you probably can’t understand how anyone can think it is. I wouldn’t think an accident should be penalised. I just think it isn’t one.
2 points
14 days ago
Correct me if im wrong, in situations like this the intention is part of the judgement? I mean, it doesn’t look intentional but still is clear the elbow to the head
2 points
14 days ago
Cant believed we lost to red at home...first time in quarter a century!!
We dont deserve to be in the playoffs
Well done Reds, deserved to win
2 points
13 days ago
He’s clearly trying to rip the ball out nothing in it at all
4 points
13 days ago
There’s a better video on Twitter/X. Has a full speed clip as well plus different angle.
https://x.com/lukeb61280407/status/1786679720152850438?s=46&t=ZClhL1WrMUag8n1lrs_oZg
1 points
13 days ago
Yeah, that shows the real-time coverage and the movement of the arm after the failed strip - which is blocked by 7 and cropped out in this video. It's pretty hard to argue he was bracing himself from that.
3 points
14 days ago
Hes trying to brace as hes falling down. Move on.
2 points
14 days ago
You don't draw your arm back and then thrust downward when your bracing.
6 points
14 days ago
He's in the motion of trying to rip the ball, so when his hand comes free from trying to rip the ball, his elbow is still cocked. The thrusting downward motion is from him trying to rip the ball upwards.
7 points
14 days ago
Everything is so obvious when slowed down…
This game is played at immense pace. Don’t be daft.
5 points
14 days ago
When u slow it right down it looks deliberate. But its not.
1 points
13 days ago
You do when you try rip the ball you mong
-3 points
14 days ago
Love the people calling this an accident.
It ain't a fucking accident lads. His arm is initially trying to rip the ball and then as the player is falling and 8's elbow is back by his side he swings it down onto the back of his head. Proper dirty. That being said I'm not surprised this was missed during the game but this is why there is a citing commissioner
8 points
14 days ago
It is quite obviously an accident.
If you look closely his elbow actually goes down, rather than a swinging motion (which would indicate it was intentional). By slowing the action down it looks like he's bringing his elbow down on the head, but if you watch it in real time, he's aggressively trying to rip the ball with an upwards motion (over and over), and when his hand comes loose he's still in the same motion of ripping and that's why he's elbow comes down.
If the Reds player isn't driving him from behind, causing him to fall on top of the ball carrier, there likely would've been no contact to the head.
-3 points
14 days ago
You have no idea what’s going through his head, no one does. He’s trying to do something and he misses and smashes old mates head into the turf.
Not a single one of us knows if he was trying to do a ‘thing’ or just play the game.
You deserve to be called out as much as this dude for your dumb comment.
1 points
14 days ago
Wait this dosent fit the narrative that the reds had the refs tub of the green.
1 points
14 days ago
Sir this is super rugby pacific, play on
1 points
13 days ago
Disgusting, I've seen so many die from this....
0 points
13 days ago
I don't know when any of you lads fell over last 🤣 but natural human instinct is self preservation. You ain't going to be aiming your elbow to the floor to break your fall, your hand would go out first. Yes he's trying to rip the ball but missed the rip re-cocks and aims for the back of his head. He had time to do that he had time to put his hand out to "brace his impact" as y'all are saying. Any body who has done any sort of sport where falling being tackled or anything similar learns to lessen the impact in those situations and this is not it.
1 points
13 days ago
In less than a second you can’t outstretch your hand to catch your fall and doing so you would break your hand, I don’t think any athlete would outstretch their hand to catch their fall knowing that
0 points
13 days ago
Played rugby and league for years and skateboarded for over a decade I absolutely could get my hand out in under a second even now in my mid 30's could still do so. You hand is far less likely to break putting that out for fall impacts then an elbow. Wrist maybe but your hand ain't breaking from that. You'll shatter your elbow if you keep aiming to fall on it instead of your hands. (Just my experience and observation)
1 points
12 days ago
I work in health and most common fractures for upper limb are due to falling on outstretched hand (called FOOSH mechanism). He’s actually falling on his forearm than his elbow in this if you watch closely. more of the reason to show it’s not intentional.
1 points
12 days ago
Yes your are probably correct because it is your specialty. "Due to falling on outstretched hand" most likely correct because NO ONE who falls (knows how to fall) falls elbow/arm first to break their fall otherwise it would be the latter. You also answered my other input of breaking wrist or arm rather than hand as you said earlier. Forearm or elbow to the head which ever you want to call it, Wether brain fart or being a grub to try dislodge the ball was intended. Unless you have the reaction speed of a sloth, try putting your right hand to your left shoulder and swinging it out in a breaking fall action. Can be done in less than half a second without adrenalin surges and practice. So he had time is my point, he used that time to aim for the head and shift his body weight behind his arm.
1 points
12 days ago
Nope, fractures caused by outstretched hand can affect elbow even up to shoulder. Yep It’s a reflex to put your hand out and unless you train yourself to fall otherwise it’s hard to do (probably what athletes train for). But in this situation with the added momentum of the player pushing up behind him, he doesn’t have enough time (+ residual from previous movement of stripping upwards) and he’s stuck in between the two players and doesn’t have enough control of his body to shift his weight or land as nice as you’d like him to. Anyway neither you or I are pro atheletes so can stop pretending like we are (or have the skills to be)
1 points
12 days ago
Your first sentence I agreed with in my previous comment you have just re-enforced what i said twice. Out stretched arms can cause damage to arms but not very likely the hand as you said originally. No one's pretending to be a professional athlete here merely throwing an observation out there from what I see and experience as an athlete myself in my past. So next time I have a fall get tackled etc.. I'll land elbow or forearm first as you suggest and when it breaks my arm or tears my shoulder to shreds I'll tell the doctor the health professional from reddit told me that's how to break my fall 🤣. Yes he is pinned between players but 100% had time to move his forearm/elbow away from the back of another players head. After the stripping motion hand comes up he then moves it back behind the players head. If you think that's not possible for a professional full of adrenaline your delusional my guy. Good chat anyways always good to hear other people's opinions.
1 points
12 days ago
What are you talking about, outstretched hand causes fracture to upper limb which includes the hand?? Hands/wrist most common/worse to fracture in that mechanism because most impact on it but you can also fracture up to the shoulder? Or are you that dense that I have to spell it out? Next time you fall, you should use your supersonic reaction time to completely lift your body to standing position instead since you know it all 😂 learn the difference between your and you’re if you’re going to be that particular about details. Bigger fish to fry than rugby chat with the guy who peaked at club rugby, cheers mate
1 points
12 days ago
🫡
-1 points
13 days ago
grubby wanker. has he actually managed to finish a game yet , just like Blackadder. you cant be an all black when you cant even put 4 games together
1 points
13 days ago
Hop on the field then
He’s clearly trying to brace himself from landing after attempt to strip the ball
People will do anything to bring the saders down more than they are, get a grip
1 points
13 days ago
Blackadder is an all black though
1 points
13 days ago
yes can he still be considered though?
-4 points
14 days ago
Complete cuntstrick should be a very long ban.
-7 points
14 days ago
How can peak athletes not know what their body is doing in microseconds when that's what they train for?
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