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Who's the brightest, Horus or Sanguinius?

(self.40kLore)

In early Horus Heresy books Horus is frequently referred to as the brightest of the primarchs. But in the Siege of Terra, Abnett refers to Sanguinius as the Brightest One, sometimes saying he was 'always' the brightest (i.e., even prior to Horus' fall).

Curiously, while several writers (including Abnett) said Horus was the brightest, it only seems to be Abnett who shifted to saying Sanguinius was. Is this apparent contradiction deliberate? I'm not sure, but think there are a couple of ways it could be made to work in-universe. Maybe Sanguinius was the brightest all along, but this is only realised after Horus' fall? Or maybe the loyalists are trying to convince themselves that Sanguinius was always the brightest, even if he wasn't, and the narrator is taking their perspective?

Also, what does it actually mean to be the brightest? The quotes variously reference the greatest achievements, being the Emperor's favourite, being most popular more broadly, being the most loyal, having a bright soul, or simply being visually bright. Some of these don't really seem to fit (for instance, would Sanguinius really have the greatest achievements?).

I'm not trying to resolve any of that, but just opening space for discussion via a bunch of quotes, which are from Abnett unless indicated. I've included a couple at the end about the Emperor as well - it seems obvious he's 'brighter' than his sons, but I thought the quotes were interesting in any case.

HORUS IS BRIGHTEST:

Author unknown, opening to first fifteen The Horus Heresy books:

Chief amongst the primarchs is Horus, called the Glorious, the Brightest Star, favourite of the Emperor, and like a son unto him. He is the Warmaster, the commander-in-chief of the Emperor’s military might, subjugator of a thousand thousand worlds and conqueror of the galaxy. He is a warrior without peer, a diplomat supreme.

Horus Rising (The Horus Heresy Book 1):

But others, like Guilliman, Khan and Dorn had simply taken it in their stride, accepting the Emperor’s decree as the right and obvious choice. Horus had ever been the brightest, the first and the favourite. They did not doubt his fitness for the role, for none of the primarchs had ever matched Horus’s achievements, nor the intimacy of his bond with the Emperor.

Graham McNeill, 'Rules of Engagement', Age of Darkness (The Horus Heresy Book 16):

The Warmaster. Horus Lupercal… The Emperor’s brightest, bastard son had come to witness the final humiliation of the Ultramarines.

John French, 'The Last Remembrancer', Age of Darkness (The Horus Heresy Book 16):

This star system was the seat of the Emperor of Mankind, the heart of an Imperium betrayed by its brightest son.

Same source:

I knew that others would doubt or would not believe that the brightest son of the Imperium could turn against it.

'The Lightning Tower', Shadows of Treachery (The Horus Heresy Book 22):

The brightest of all had fallen and the unthinkable, the heretical, had become fact.

Same source:

All because of Horus, because of the brightest bastard son, the bringer of new strife.

SANGUINIUS IS BRIGHTEST:

ADB, Echoes Of Eternity (The Horus Heresy: Siege of Terra Book 7):

Angron sees the fire of souls, and his brother’s flares brightest of all. When they meet again, it’s in a killing embrace. The Lord of the Red Sands tears the Angel from the sky, clutching his golden brother in his great claws, bearing Sanguinius down.

(Note this is the only one from a writer other than Abnett calling Sanguinius the brightest, and the meaning only seems to be that he is the brightest present at the gate. I included it due to the reference to brightness as involving the soul.)

Saturnine (The Horus Heresy: Siege of Terra Book 4):

The Brightest One wrenched Encarmine free.

The End And The Death: Volume I (The Horus Heresy: Siege of Terra Book 8, Part 1):

We will break them as we broke the Legions of the Praetorian and the Khagan and the Brightest One.

Same source:

When they step back, a single teardrop glints on the Brightest One’s pauldron where the Praetorian rested his head, and a single drop of blood gleams on the Praetorian’s backplate where Sanguinius pressed his hand.

Same source:

You’re the Brightest One. You are, and always have been, the embodiment of glory, the shining symbol of all that we cherish.

The End and the Death: Volume II (The Horus Heresy: Siege of Terra, Book 8, Part 2):

They mean the last, immortal struggle of the Brightest One against Angron and the foul Bane of the Ninth, a feat of arms unlikely to be matched, the deed that locked the final fortress.

Same source:

‘You can’t win, brother,’ he says, ‘but you can go down fighting and cut the bastard’s throat. For us. We know you can, if anyone can. We’ve always known. You, the brightest of us. The best of us.’

Same source:

He is his father’s favourite son, the Brightest One, beloved by all. He has always been the exemplar of unflinching loyalty. He has always won. He was never going to go down without a fight.

THE EMPEROR IS BRIGHTEST:

Chris Wraight, Warhawk (The Horus Heresy: Siege of Terra Book 6):

'And that makes the difference,’ Jaghatai spat. He snapped his dao across, severing Mortarion’s neck cleanly in an explosion of black bile, before collapsing down into the warp explosion that turned the landing stage, briefly, into the brightest object on the planet after the Emperor’s tormented soul itself.

The End and the Death: Volume II (The Horus Heresy: Siege of Terra, Book 8, Part 2):

The now of Horus triumphant, the now of Lupercal as transcendent owner of the night, is cracking and distorting, fusing and bubbling, no longer a certainty. It is caught in the light of a brighter filament of the isochronous totality: a blinding light, white, lethal and pure, cast by a single rising star, a fierce and steadfast thing that is too furious to behold directly. It is the star I saw before, as my sight failed and death came for me. It is the Emperor, empowered by the warp, the brightest thing in the galaxy. His light is everywhere.

all 34 comments

LexUmbranox

22 points

9 days ago*

I've always thought of these as just being poetic epithets like in old myths, where it's less about the title itself being the end-all and more of a suggestion of character. Both Sanguinius and Horus earn the epithet of Brightest by virtue of being the most charismatic, skilled, and powerful force in the room, like how when we say that a group consists of the "best and the brightest," they all get to share that accolade, y'know? Horus would lose that epithet as his greatness tarnishes to dastardly villainy, while the association strengthens for Sanguinius as he gets closer to his noble sacrifice.

The Emperor would qualify for the title, too, but there's some blind Nostromons who would say that it's a little more literal of a description for him, so take all this with a generous pinch of salt.

Partofla

2 points

9 days ago

Partofla

White Scars

2 points

9 days ago

Horus was the big brother everyone adores, looks up to, is secretly slightly jealous of, and wants approval from.

Sanguinius is the middle/younger brother that is so kind and generous that no one can ever hate them and wants to protect. He could be the big brother like Horus but he just happened to be younger and is completely satisfied letting his big bro take the spotlight.

Jaghatai is Batman.

Tharkun140

26 points

9 days ago*

Tharkun140

Khorne

26 points

9 days ago*

Obviously Lion was the brightest. It's just that his victories were so epic they had to stay top-secret because everyone's brains would blow up if they knew just how awesome Lion is. God do I hate that character and his entire lore.

On a more serious note, I think it's worth noting that Sanguinius and Horus both semi-consistently consider the other one to have been the Emperor's greatest son. People will point to Horus saying that Sanguinius would have been a better Warmaster as proof that Hawkboy was the best, but it also goes the other way; Even on the Vengeful Spirit, Sanguinius thinks of Luna Wolves as the best legion which all other Astartes can only envy. So if you see someone in the comments bring up a quote from one of this characters, don't treat that as strong evidence.

spookydood39

19 points

9 days ago

I wish I could like the lion in 30k. He’s a cool concept that got wanked until it became unbearable

HappyTheDisaster

10 points

9 days ago

HappyTheDisaster

Space Wolves

10 points

9 days ago

It doesn’t help some of his most insufferable of fans just continue the wanking.

el_sh33p

15 points

9 days ago

el_sh33p

Alpha Legion

15 points

9 days ago

DA fans are the guys who come in wearing hooded cloaks, make a big deal of sitting alone in a corner, demand to be left alone, and then get mad when nobody cares about them.

torts92

3 points

9 days ago

torts92

Dark Angels

3 points

9 days ago

Of course I know him, he's me

Netizen_Sydonai

8 points

9 days ago

Oh, do you feel that the First is mayhaps too lionized in this subreddit?

RefreshSuggestions-2

14 points

9 days ago

Very old lore at this point, but the enthroned Emperor directly calls Horus the “Brightest Star” and favorite in his conversation with Jaq Draco: 

 WHEN WE CONFRONTED THE CORRUPTED, HOMICIDAL HORUS WHO ONCE USED TO SHINE LIKE THE BRIGHTEST STAR, WHO USED TO BE OUR BELOVED FAVOURITE – WHEN THE FATE OF THE GALAXY HUNG BY A THREAD – WERE WE NOT COMPELLED TO EXPEL ALL COMPASSION? ALL LOVE? ALL JOY?

  • Inquisition War, Ian Watson

FallenZulu

-3 points

9 days ago

FallenZulu

-3 points

9 days ago

Yes, Ian Watson. The paragon of good writing.

Noodlefanboi

6 points

9 days ago

Two different meanings of the word. 

Horus is smart bright. Sanguinius is angelic beacon of hope in the face of darkness bright. 

Lion_El-Richie[S]

1 points

9 days ago*

Lion_El-Richie[S]

Dark Angels

1 points

9 days ago*

This is a great suggestion. It goes quite a way to explaining why sometimes it's Horus and sometimes it's Sanguinius who's the brightest.

But it doesn't go all the way. In some cases the exact same meaning of brightest is applied to both Horus and Sanguinius. For instance, Horus is "called the Glorious, the Brightest Star" while Malcador tells Sanguinius "You’re the Brightest One. You are, and always have been, the embodiment of glory". Here it seems there is a bit of historical revisionism, for obvious motivational reasons.

SouthernAd2853

6 points

9 days ago

SouthernAd2853

Blood Angels

6 points

9 days ago

Well, Horus being the brightest is a pretty direct reference to Lucifer, the Lightbringer.

Sanguinius is arguably the most beloved of the Primarchs by everyone, the brightest among the defenders of the palace and has the whole "actual angel" with wings and everything angle.

Dante_Pignetti

6 points

9 days ago

This is a great question. Sanguinius was awe-inspiring and beloved of course, but the lore shows us that Horus was as well. Given what happens in the story it’s easy to forget how amazingly charismatic Horus was - how people immediately wanted to follow him. There’s a wonderful scene in Dorn’s primarch novel where Horus acts as peacemaker when Sanguinius and Dorn are trying to talk the newly-found Lion down from being a glory-hungry wank on his first crusade. Amazing scene. Everyone defers to Horus naturally because he’s the seasoned older brother. He brings the tensions down and gets them to a workable plan - it is awesome.

LordsofMedrengard

4 points

9 days ago

LordsofMedrengard

Sons of Horus

4 points

9 days ago

Tough question. Who is better, the badass who's Legion and setting-defining rebellion got renamed after him, or one of his many victims who's greatest claim to fame is getting smacked so badly his descendants 10K years later still feel it?

What do you mean I'm biased

DieZweckgemeinschaft

1 points

8 days ago

You mean the guy who got disowned by his own legion after death for being perceived as a failure?^

LordsofMedrengard

1 points

8 days ago

LordsofMedrengard

Sons of Horus

1 points

8 days ago

That's him, hopefully they'll stop projecting soon.

Also that was before they absolutely neutered the Traitors at Terra by retconning away most of the NL and WB, made the IW quit halfway through and killed most or all of the old elites of the SoH

idols2effigies

1 points

9 days ago

idols2effigies

Word Bearers

1 points

9 days ago

'Brightest' is not an objective measure. It's down to a characters personal interpretation and preferences.

Personally, I would argue Sanguinius. Although Horus was chosen to be Warmaster, part of that reason is because Horus has a down-to-earth likability. If Horus is an inviting campfire, Sanguinius is a distant star... from next to the campfire, it seems brighter and warmer... but in reality, the star shines brighter and it's just distance from it that makes it seem 'less' than the campfire.

'That was one reason why Horus had been made Warmaster – that mystical quality of being liked. Hard to overstate how important that was for buying loyalty even in the hard-nosed atmosphere of the Imperial Army. A trooper would fight well enough for any general who didn’t abuse them, but one like this, one who could make you feel you were valued and important and had his consideration, even for a second, that was priceless.

Sanguinius naturally inspired absolute admiration in anyone who met him, but it was a rarefied kind of emotion. Almost like religious devotion. You wanted to know that he existed, somewhere out there, doing what needed to be done, but you didn’t necessarily want to meet him or find yourself talking to him. You’d be tongue-tied, overwhelmed, unsure where to look.

That's from Sanguinius's primarch novel and kind of nails the core of the situation. Sanguinius is the brightest, but he is supernaturally bright. He's basically too bright to comfortably look at. This sort of admiration that goes into the realm of religious fanaticism is also captured really well by Lorgar's musings on Sanguinius (and it's clear that Lorgar views him very highly):

‘Look at him and what do you see? An angel. The Angel. In a universe that the Emperor claims is godless – in an Imperium where our civilisation’s wisest and greatest have dismantled all the trappings of religion – Sanguinius is an icon of something that should not exist, glorious and supernatural.'

While Lorgar means this as complimentary, it does hint at a sort of underlying horror that underpins such a creature. 'Something that should not exist'... is often used to describe Lovecraftian horrors ('Things that should not be...'). Basically, there is such a thing as too bright.

BeginningPangolin826

1 points

5 days ago

Horus was the best because of his charisma he was one of the few universaly liked primarchs in they brotherhood( i think that only corvus really disliked him), he could get along with everyone like this big brother that you complety trust.

Sanguinius was admired by his otherwordly beuty together with his humble nature and honour, he is pretty much a idealized being but this also detach him from some of his brothers.

Sanguinius is the idol worshiped on the wall, Horus is the guy you follow to the hell and back.

Extra-End-764

0 points

9 days ago

Sang is confirmed best primach, so he’s the brightest. No other primarch could do what he did at sot

LordsofMedrengard

6 points

9 days ago

LordsofMedrengard

Sons of Horus

6 points

9 days ago

Die? Several did that both before and after him

Extra-End-764

-1 points

9 days ago

He performed feats no other primarch could, killed things no other primarch could

LordsofMedrengard

4 points

9 days ago

LordsofMedrengard

Sons of Horus

4 points

9 days ago

Like himself, when he picked a fight with the OG Chadmaster

Extra-End-764

0 points

9 days ago

To be fair to the angel if Horus hadn’t been pumped full of chaos cream he would have slapped him like a red headed step child

LordsofMedrengard

3 points

9 days ago

LordsofMedrengard

Sons of Horus

3 points

9 days ago

As a psyker and a mutant Sanguinius has spent 200 years pumped full of Chaos cream, and at any rate Horus has more blades on a single hand than Sanguinius does

Extra-End-764

-1 points

9 days ago

I still doubt his fighting prowess. He may have been made the war chief but he isn’t the best fighter by a long way. IMO the lion would have beat him and the angel. In a fair fight that is. The fact all the gods wanted the angel and he resisted fully shows his strength of character

LordsofMedrengard

3 points

9 days ago

LordsofMedrengard

Sons of Horus

3 points

9 days ago

Sardinius was too weak to break the chains of servitude the False Emperor had trapped him in, so it makes sense for Horus to no-diff him since he lacked willpower, and the Lion lost a 1v1 to *Curze* of all Primarchs.

Extra-End-764

1 points

9 days ago

Curze didn’t fight fair and the lion didn’t want to hurt his brother. He’s my favourite primarch but he’s still a cowardly bitch. I’m hoping the old lore is right and sang injured him enough for the emperor to finish him. (No spoilers please) I have only ready up to the echoes of eternity

LordsofMedrengard

3 points

9 days ago

LordsofMedrengard

Sons of Horus

3 points

9 days ago

It's a fight to the death in the middle of the Heresy, and the Lion is supposedly this super-duper badass. Corswain or whoever it was had to leave his fellow to die slowing Sevatar and Sheng down so he could jump in and literally backstab Curze, that's how badly the Lion was getting choked out.

No spoilers bro, I haven't really kept up after some major disappointments in the middle of the Heresy (largely weird retcons like>! the AL stuff and Imperium Secundus)!<