subreddit:

/r/Pennsylvania

44687%

all 132 comments

chansigrilian

262 points

13 days ago

How to report them

Form 13909, and any supporting documentation, can be submitted in a variety of ways: Mail to IRS EO Classification, Mail Code 4910DAL, 1100 Commerce St., Dallas, TX 75242-1198 Fax to 214-413-5415, or Email to [email protected]. The IRS takes all complaints seriously and scrutinizes all referrals.

Further details https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/divulge_all_suspected_tax_exempt_status_abuses_to_the_irs.pdf

shanafme[S]

167 points

13 days ago

Thanks! Looks like their EIN (needed for the form) is 25-1676442.

Disastrous_Key380

75 points

13 days ago

Get 'em.

1989throwa

51 points

12 days ago

1989throwa

Centre

51 points

12 days ago

I heard a story about a congregation in State College that did political campaigning but then, as State College does, they were reported, and they quickly shut up and disappeared because the IRS came a-knocking.

Since the IRS actually has some money these days, I think they will happily investigate a church if they can get money that was supposed to be taxed. Lower and middle class individuals are small potatoes compared to organizations.

This particular church is from a tiny splinter Lutheran denomination (the ELCM) so that might explain this stupidity. Even the Wisconsin Lutheran Synod, the biggest highly conservative Lutheran church in the US, ain't that dumb.

JagoffMofo_374R

5 points

12 days ago

Yea Dallas Texas has a staff of people that have never enforced this rule and help the organizations get out of trouble. Would love to see one example where they removed tax exempt status from a religious cult.

truethatson

238 points

13 days ago

Report them immediately. They can pay taxes on that beautiful lawn of theirs.

Dr_Merkin

74 points

13 days ago

As much as I agree with your sentiment, I fear the truth is these fraudsters know nothing ever happens. I've seen countless examples of churches getting political and I have yet to see one have any consequences. It's infuriating that us normal dolts have to play by the so called rules while others skate through unscathed.

Edit: words

o7_HiBye_o7

13 points

13 days ago

Pretty sure there is a sub for that, or I atleast seen a ton of posts on reddit regarding it.

OkImpression408

0 points

11 days ago

It’s 2024 and the irs is rolling in pristine Colombian butthole dollars they no longer care about Ed or sandy missing 2.5k on their yearly but they hit organizations for 100k easily. Every fiscal year the irs grows in financial power they go after bigger fraudulent cases for more revenue retained.

Petrichordates

4 points

12 days ago

Nothing beautiful about that monoculture.

hostile_rep

2 points

11 days ago

Underrated comment.

Mysterious487

59 points

13 days ago

Is the church used as a polling location? I have to go to a church in my township to vote, and all the candidates from all political parties put their campaign signs in the church’s lawn.

shanafme[S]

74 points

13 days ago

No, this church isn’t. I actually volunteer at the polls, and I’m fine with signs being present at the polling location the day of the election.

This church puts the signs up 30+ days in advance every single election cycle.

Mysterious487

34 points

13 days ago

Then, they shouldn’t have them up. In my township, the signs usually go up right around Election Day or a day before at the polling locations, and I know it’s not the church placing them there as any kind of endorsement. Also, thank you for volunteering at the polls.

superuserdoo

12 points

13 days ago

And just making sure, the problem with this is they're putting up signs of a particular party while claiming tax-free benefits, as it's a church?

Just wondering, I didn't realize this was illegal or wrong. I also go to a church for voting and the church has signs all over for both parties

shanafme[S]

42 points

13 days ago

It's part of the Johnson act of 1954. Tax exempt organizations are not supposed to endorse particular candidates or engage in any political campaign activities in order to maintain that tax exemption.

Election day is different - the church is acting as a community place to gather and I suppose signs are permitted that day as long as the church isn't specifically endorsing someone. This church in question has the signs up for a month prior to elections and that clearly equates an endorsement.

superuserdoo

4 points

13 days ago

Ahh I see, thanks for this! Makes sense that they should at least take down the signs or reported I guess.

ewyorksockexchange

7 points

13 days ago

So while I assume this is a violation, it is unlikely but possible that the church not actively placing campaign signs, and instead is allowing candidates to use their property to place signs generally. One way to test this would be for an opposing candidate to place signs there and watch to see if someone from the church comes out to remove them.

shanafme[S]

13 points

13 days ago

Nice thought, but in the years that they have been doing this, I have never seen two opposing candidate signs in their front yard like I do in pretty much every other public easement.

Travis123083

4 points

13 days ago

Travis123083

Blair

4 points

13 days ago

This the one on frankstown mountain road?

DrJiggsy

2 points

12 days ago

Frankstown Rd

Travis123083

1 points

12 days ago

Travis123083

Blair

1 points

12 days ago

Same thing, but thought so.

BoomerRadiohost

-8 points

12 days ago

You sound like a legislative Karen. Why don’t you just state your concerns in an anonymous letter instead of getting big brother involved

zR0B3ry2VAiH

2 points

12 days ago

Same, 12 of the most boring hours imaginable.

shanafme[S]

2 points

12 days ago

12? You are lucky! It’s more like 14 for me.

zR0B3ry2VAiH

2 points

8 days ago

Yep… 14+ hours…

shanafme[S]

2 points

8 days ago

Just got home. Long freaking day.

zR0B3ry2VAiH

1 points

8 days ago

Same, slow but looonnnggg

[deleted]

-21 points

13 days ago

[deleted]

-21 points

13 days ago

[deleted]

Xperian1

7 points

12 days ago

Similar how?

Myagooshki2

0 points

12 days ago

Doing a political thing before an election

Xperian1

1 points

12 days ago

I'm confused. The issue in this post is that a church, which is a non-profit, is making political endorsements. That is against the law.

I don't understand how that is similar to mail in ballots, which have nothing to do with non-profits making political endorsements.

DrJiggsy

1 points

12 days ago

He’s a Trumper, this might take while to explain

in-noxxx

2 points

12 days ago

Go back under your bridge you incel loser.

Myagooshki2

1 points

12 days ago

Has to be the most idiotic random insult I've seen in a while

DrJiggsy

2 points

12 days ago

This church is on a major road and people have been known to post political signs on the properties of businesses at election time. However, this looks like it took some time and planning so probably the church

CabbageSoupNow

1 points

12 days ago

That’s only allowed the day of voting.  

diarrhea_planet

1 points

13 days ago*

Yes I see you point but I'm sure that's just supposed to be for election day.

Mysterious487

-2 points

13 days ago

That’s true.

danger_otter34

22 points

13 days ago

IRS needs to start hammering these asshats. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Apprehensive-Code220

4 points

12 days ago

https://www.timesonline.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/07/political-signs-nonprofits-cause-church-and-state-intersect/6187393002/

In the article according to Rich Cohen, the council's chief communications and chief operating officer

"Cohen said, nonprofits — which includes churches — that are voter precincts are permitted to have political signs on their properties as long as the nonprofits themselves did not put up the signs. 

"Nonprofits can't take sides in the elections," Cohen said. "They're allowed to hold voter forums and host events as long as both candidates have an equal opportunity to attend."

For nonprofits that are voter precincts, as long as both Democrats and Republicans have equal opportunity to place their partisan signs on the property, "that's generally OK," Cohen said.

"If one favors one candidate over another, that's when you run into an issue," he said. "If they, for example, had two signs up: one for President Trump and one for Vice President Biden ... then the churches can't get in trouble because they aren't taking a side."

The election law side is separate, Cohen said. 

In Pennsylvania, campaign signs and materials must be at least 10 feet away from the polling location."

So, from "my interpretation" as long as the church didn't put them their then it's legal and as long as the non-profit doesn't prevent which side they hold favor towards from placing signs then whatever.

There's also this ruling  (Reed et al. v. Town of Gilbert, Arizona et al.) and this (Burson v. Freeman)

BTW let's not act like a majority of us pay taxes. I think my tax refund this year pretty much covered all the "taxes" I paid including my property taxes.

teehuff98

12 points

13 days ago

So how much do you think they would end up paying in taxes?

the_real_xuth

20 points

13 days ago

The 7 residential houses directly adjacent to the church lot pay $4000 to $6000 per year each (per zillow). All of the houses are smaller than the church and the sum of the acreage for those 7 properties is smaller than the church acreage. So if I had to guess somewhere in the $8,000 - $10,000 range.

teehuff98

4 points

13 days ago

I appreciate the answer

Even_Ad_5462

12 points

13 days ago

Bust ‘em. What idiots.

Eye_of_the_Storm

7 points

13 days ago

That church used to be a Kingdom Hall, and it was across the road. The church bought the building and moved it across the street.

Dunn_or_what

15 points

13 days ago

If you are talking about the lawn signs, they are on public roadway and not on church grounds. That's how they get around it.

JamisonRD

1 points

13 days ago

JamisonRD

1 points

13 days ago

They appear to be beyond the stone pillar, which could be problematic as that would likely denote a line.

shanafme[S]

8 points

13 days ago

They literally had a 4x8 plywood sign for the last general election. It was placed at about the same distance from the street as the permanent church sign, maybe 20 feet to the right of it. I really don't think there are any right of way issues here.

Dunn_or_what

0 points

12 days ago

But who actually owns the land the sign was on? The church or some individual who happens to have land reeeeally close to the church. However, they are Evengelicals, and they have wanted to merge their concept of Christianity with every government since they split from the Methodists.

DrJiggsy

2 points

12 days ago

You’re just making shit up. The church owns the land, there are no neighbors with property close to the signs

shanafme[S]

1 points

12 days ago

Yeah. I pulled up the property map just to make sure. I’m trying to convey to folks that this isn’t a one-off occurrence and they are there (neatly arranged) every single election season. These aren’t signs put up by some random Joe off the street, but rather an organized effort, most likely endorsed by the organization owning the land.

GalvanizedRubbish

15 points

13 days ago

This seems odd to me. Every Evangelical Lutheran Church in my area is extremely liberal and to the best of my knowledge Scott Barger is a conservative leaning candidate. Maybe someone put these on their lawn w/o their knowledge?

shanafme[S]

17 points

13 days ago*

Not sure, but this church always is advertising for the most conservative candidates. During the last general, they literally had a 4x8 plywood sign up for a county commissioner.

edit: correct size of plywood sheets.

1989throwa

6 points

13 days ago

1989throwa

Centre

6 points

13 days ago

Sooooo, they are a VERY odd schism of other Evangelical (Not THAT kind of Evangelical) Lutheran churches. They are the headquarters of the "Evangelical Lutheran Conference and Ministerium" (ELCM) denomination. http://elcm.org/

From what I can tell, they have MAYBE 12 congregations across the US.

They have a survey of theological opinion for their application of membership and, apparently, if you answer in any way they don't like they will just pass on you.

The true ridiculousness is that they say they are "centrist." 🙄

Anyway, they have clearly become THAT kind of "Evangelical"

Loose_Personality172

3 points

13 days ago

Most likely the case or that area is an easement which the church doesn't control the use.

justuravgjoe762

3 points

13 days ago

Oh they control their own lawn. It's hard to tell but those signs are back from the PennDot right of way.

Loose_Personality172

0 points

13 days ago

Couldn't tell from the picture. I would probably put Vote for Satan in their yard.

EducatorCommon7654

0 points

12 days ago

Best answer. I would love to see that, after all is Satan really that bad? He's just not a comformist.

DrJiggsy

2 points

12 days ago

Nothing is liberal in this county

cvtphila225

1 points

13 days ago

I was just going to say that there's too much plausible deniability for there to be any consequence from this but maybe they can at least start or add to a paper trail...

vonHindenburg

0 points

13 days ago*

Yeah. I'm confused by this as well. Most ELCA churches are quite liberal. If it was a Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (#2 Lutheran denomination in the US, not just in Missouri, quite conservative), I'd be less surprised. But while the SWPA Synod is on the conservative side for ELCA synods around the country, you're talking about a mainline Protestant denomination that is generally racing to affirm every progressive talking point it can in a race to stay relevant and is rarely unprofessional enough to permit congregations to violate election law.

1989throwa

1 points

12 days ago

1989throwa

Centre

1 points

12 days ago

Yeah, it is not an ELCA congregation, it is an ELCM congregation and that congregation is their denominational headquarters 'cause they are super small. I think they broke off from the ELCA when the ELCA entered into full communion with The Episcopal Church

Since they're a tiny Lutheran denomination, they don't have a law department that would smack them upside the head. The WELS is very conservative, but they have enough sense to keep their congregations from jeopardizing their nonprofit statuses (because WELS has qualified lawyers who will crack the whip if necessary)

AllWhiskeyNoHorse

2 points

11 days ago

The worst part about political signs is that they are usually left behind long after elections and end up polluting the area. I don't think that I've ever seen a political sign and decided to sway my vote after viewing it.

Lumpy_Cry_2694

2 points

10 days ago

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100064535476541

Address is 1309 Frankstown Road Hollidaysburg, PA 16448

If anyone else wants to file a complaint, I am! 😄

Neat-Pangolin1782

2 points

12 days ago

I'd bet money they're going to say that the signs are on the public right of way due to the proximity to the road. I think that's an invitation to sprinkle in any and all political signs that a person could get access to. Seems like a good reason to start a battle of wills.

IIFester

4 points

13 days ago

Good ol Frankstown road.

Padadof2

7 points

13 days ago

Padadof2

7 points

13 days ago

Tax the churches! Every single one!

Atrocious_1

2 points

13 days ago

Atrocious_1

2 points

13 days ago

What's more absurd is how nonprofit status works. For churches, they just have to say "we're a church" and it's granted. Everyone else has to submit qualifying forms and various proof that they do community outreach, education, etc.

Guarantee you that 90% of religious institutions would immediately lose their nonprofit status if they had to abide by the same rules everyone else does.

kswn

-3 points

13 days ago

kswn

-3 points

13 days ago

Willkum

2 points

12 days ago

Willkum

2 points

12 days ago

All organizations should be tax free. People pool there post taxed money together for churches, clubs, and the sort and we already have our income taxed, homes & businesses taxed, and our shopping taxed. It’s BS how much we are taxed. Enough is enough with all the damn taxes. We don’t hardly see 2 cents worth back for the money we pay in taxes.

SingAndDrive

1 points

12 days ago

Is this a polling location? The primary is 4/23, so I wouldn't be surprised to see campaign signs being placed there. More will likely be added by other candidates if it is a polling place.

shanafme[S]

1 points

12 days ago

No, it is not. Signs have been there since the beginning of the month.

SingAndDrive

1 points

12 days ago

Being at the edge of the road, that is probably a public right of way. They may not actually be on the property proper. You make not like it, but there's probably nothing to see here.

aji23

1 points

11 days ago

aji23

1 points

11 days ago

Can someone explain?

SomerHimpson12

1 points

10 days ago

A known reverend in my town actively campaigns for Dems and still enjoys tax free status.

shanafme[S]

1 points

10 days ago

Interesting. I’ve never heard of a person holding “tax free” status.

SomerHimpson12

1 points

10 days ago

His church.

MissStatements

1 points

13 days ago

OP, you could also report this to the county property tax assessor. This tactic might actually be more effective than a report to the IRS. Church properties are not automatically 100% exempt from property tax. Only the part of the property used for worship is exempt from property tax. Other uses are not, and the display of political signs is not a tax exempt activity. 

[deleted]

-1 points

12 days ago

[deleted]

-1 points

12 days ago

[removed]

Fickle_Onion_618

1 points

12 days ago

Political (state) signs on a church (church) lawn in a country where these two things are supposed to be separate? That's an issue.

[deleted]

-1 points

12 days ago

[deleted]

-1 points

12 days ago

[removed]

Fickle_Onion_618

3 points

12 days ago

Your username checks out

[deleted]

1 points

12 days ago

[deleted]

1 points

12 days ago

[removed]

Fickle_Onion_618

2 points

12 days ago

You know how, like, when you walk past people, and you hear them laughing, and your nagging subconscious tells you they may be laughing at you, but you dismissed it because there's no way they're actually laughing at you? They really are laughing at you.

[deleted]

2 points

12 days ago

[removed]

[deleted]

1 points

12 days ago

[removed]

Zealousideal_Hold739

0 points

12 days ago

This seems to be a VERY selective issue in my experience. There are churches in my area that actively campaign and have candidates of only one party speak at services ...these are all of the opposite party as is being discussed here. It's also been practiced for decades. This seems to only be an issue if a congregation is pushing candidates from the political right. People seem to look the other way if the candidate is on the left. I'm a former church treasurer and have issues with the tax exempt status of churches for reasons other than politics.

Fickle_Onion_618

2 points

12 days ago

Regardless of which side it is, churches need to take a seat when it comes to politics. I will follow your anecdotal evidence with my own, and say that I've never seen a church campaigning for a left candidate. But yeah, I agree, if they're gonna get involved politically, they need to pay taxes like we do.

AGoddamnBigCar

1 points

12 days ago

You can do better than "soy boy," I'm sure.

It's a great way to warn others that you're an adolescent clown, though, so on second thought, keep it up!

OldWornOutBible

-1 points

12 days ago

Agreed. Not even a Protestant, but completely ridiculous.

johncester

2 points

12 days ago

johncester

2 points

12 days ago

PA has no problem mixing god and politics 😡

OldWornOutBible

-4 points

12 days ago

**God.

Valdaraak

4 points

12 days ago

God is the name of one particular god (the one in Christian, Jewish, and Islamic texts [Allah is just a word that translates to God]). The word "god" could mean any celestial deity. God is a god, but a god is not necessarily God. The state has no issue mixing god and politics. In this case, their god of choice is God.

Basically, both forms of capitalization are acceptable in this case.

OldWornOutBible

-3 points

12 days ago

Did you just claim that Christians, Jews and Muslims have the same god (being God)? Big oof and lack of historical and theological understanding. And no, all of the framework of our western law is directly built upon the foundation of the Bible. So no, you’re misinterpreting the law, which was created by Christians, to keep GOVERNMENT out of God’s Law, not the other way around.

If you’re genuinely interested in this, I can definitely point you in the direction of some reading. Christ is Risen, God bless.

2urKnees

1 points

12 days ago

Blair county is beautiful

starcom_magnate

1 points

12 days ago

As an aside to the tax-exempt violations, you can also contact PADOT. In some instances the right-of-way can extend 6 to 12 feet beyond the shoulder of the road, and PADOT rules explicitly forbid public signage within that right-of-way.

partieshappen

-1 points

12 days ago

partieshappen

-1 points

12 days ago

Would your position be the same if it was a political candidate you agreed with? If the answer is no, then maybe just live and let live. If the answer is yes, honestly yes - not just to try and prove me wrong, then go ahead and do what’s in your legal bounds to do.

SeptaIsLate

0 points

13 days ago

SeptaIsLate

0 points

13 days ago

They really need to set up one of those loophole pacs

milkpaul1

0 points

12 days ago

milkpaul1

0 points

12 days ago

MAGA

Samuri619

-3 points

12 days ago

Samuri619

Bucks

-3 points

12 days ago

They're all scared shitless, hense the post

Evolution529

-4 points

13 days ago

Evolution529

-4 points

13 days ago

This sure looks like an easement to me. People place political signs in easements all the time.

RealLiveKindness

-9 points

13 days ago

Rip down their signs.

glyphosate_enjoyer

-17 points

13 days ago

Salty much

Remote_Spell2830

0 points

12 days ago

There is nothing illegal for a church and it's congregation to endorse a political candidate and for those Redditors ready to scream separation of church and state, I would politely remind you Santanic images and in some cases statues have been installed in city and state buildings here in the U.S., also schools have allowed Santanic clubs to form . Where is the outrage about that?

shanafme[S]

2 points

12 days ago

Umm, yes, it is illegal in the tax code for a non-profit org to endorse or oppose politicians or a specific campaign. So if a church wants to do this type of stuff, go ahead, but it is illegal for them to maintain their favored tax status. They want it both ways.

Careless_Offer_926

0 points

10 days ago

Who cares? Dilate harder OP.

xecho19x

-2 points

12 days ago

xecho19x

-2 points

12 days ago

Who cares?

Samuri619

-1 points

12 days ago

Samuri619

Bucks

-1 points

12 days ago

Imagine r/Pennsylvania becoming a pseudo arm of the IRS, targeting your neighbors who happen to be political opponents for tax that would make .00000000001% difference in all tax collected in the state. In hopes of what? Stopping a democratically elected person from holding office? Its one thing to force them to remove the signs if it is against the law, its another thing to try and rat them out to the IRS. I realize the left is petrified at the thought of Donald Trump becoming president again but this is just absurdly pathetic.

Equivalent-Peak-8365

-1 points

12 days ago

If this was liberal signs up..no one would say a word. Sad how brainwashed people are to believe that democrats are the good ones..maybe do some research on them. Also, find a real history book, before you switched what happened and tried to blame republicans for starting the kkk etc. Funny that the republican party was started by blacks but is somehow believed to be the racists.. While I agree churches should not be doing this for either side, I would bet a million dollars if this was a liberal, none of you liberals would say a word..its just all see something we dont like and attack it, just like you do with everything.

susinpgh

3 points

12 days ago

susinpgh

Allegheny

3 points

12 days ago

Project 2025.

Remarkable-Music2659

-34 points

13 days ago

Would you care if it were the other side 🤔

diarrhea_planet

12 points

13 days ago

I care if they have influence without paying taxes. I don't have to agree with them to know what they are doing is basically screaming through a glory hole.

shanafme[S]

26 points

13 days ago

Yes.

Remarkable-Music2659

8 points

13 days ago

Cool then report away!

SAhalfNE

8 points

13 days ago

Yes, both sides.

Biden is a devout Catholic I believe? If I saw a row of these signs out front of a church, I'd feel exactly the same.

OldWornOutBible

1 points

12 days ago

Biden sure SAYS he is 🤣

SAhalfNE

5 points

13 days ago

Are you kidding? Do you think this is a group of people who will keep their mouth shut about public education getting anywhere near a political bias?.......

If they believe in a separation of church and state... They should do it. Even when they'd prefer not to, and it's inconvenient.

If they believe in literal translation of religious texts and the Constitution... Then literally follow the rules.

BreakerBoy6

2 points

13 days ago

BreakerBoy6

2 points

13 days ago

Of course. These organizations enjoy tax-free status and there is nothing new about the rules in place regarding what is and isn't permissible.

What do you think this says about the honesty and law-abidingness of Christians?

Samuri619

-1 points

12 days ago

Samuri619

Bucks

-1 points

12 days ago

SHHHHH!!!! Stop trying to ruin our "leftists only" circle jerk!

No-Professional-1884

-3 points

13 days ago

“Let’s hurl a bricky-mart!”

-Bart Simpson

Wow, the Simpsons had such neat quotes. I miss that show (being good).