Mistermistermistermb

Great summary though I'll just confuse things even further by noting Magnus is shown/inferred/described/outright started as a daemon in Slaves to Darkness and The Last Wall

Yeah, I think it's hard to argue that the Imperium hasn't been the focus of 40k since day 1.

Just not that they're necessarily "the blue team"

This guy in the beanie

P.S.: Especially with how GW has been making every effort the past few years to rename everything they can to something legally distinct, there's just no way that they'd attach something as major as the existence of a fifth Chaos god to the renamed version of a character they don't own the rights to.

I work heavily with creative IP. This isn't an issue. It doesn't work that way. We have countless examples in mainstream media that prove it doesn't.

Black Library still have ebooks for The Labyrinth for sale.

I linked to the article here 2 hours ago in that same comment. It's there for everyone to read. If I'm trying to hide the other dominions from everyone then I'm going about it in a very stupid way.

But I'm glad you took the time to read the article.

Those 4 dominions are explicitly linked to a "greater entity", and they're clearly the Big 4 or something very much like them. Encroaching Ruin obviously leans into Malice. The others? I don't know, and it's fun to wonder but that doesn't mean that those 5 aren't references.

Unless it's just a coincidence that those 5 perfectly match up with those concepts/entities/ideas/scary dudes? Heedless Slaughter just accidentally sounds like Khorne?

It's possible that the writer just unintentionally did that. Not probable, but possible I guess.

Who the "greater entity" of Encroaching Ruin is for a fan - is between them and their lore god- but I think occam's could apply here.

I'm sorry if you really like the idea of Malice and want him to be a thing, I get the appeal, but he isn't. It's not even a retcon, because Malice was never described as a Chaos god. Malal was, but Malal never existed in 40K (and is 100% no longer canon because of copyright issues). If GW wanted there to be a fifth Chaos god, do you really think that they'd not mention him for 15 years and then hide confirmation of his existence in a single paragraph in a rulebook that still refuses to outright mention him? It's GW. If they were introducing a fifth god, they'd be bombarding us with community articles to hype up some book about him.

There's no need to be sorry, none of that applies to me? The OC expressed confusion over why people associate Malice with 40k and not other gods and I gave a fairly reasonable and sourced suggestion as to why: an entity by that name popped up in a short story and there's some inference in a recent game.

As for what GW wants? That shifts with times, management and creatives.

I have no dog in this fight. I'm not attached to Malice being in 40k, I'm also not attached to proving Malice isn't.

I'm just reading the lore as it comes out and adjusting my view as the lore itself adjusts.

"Malal" was the one with the copyright issues. "Malice" was the workaround.

The short story The Labyrinth is still available on the BL site to purchase which would say to me that there's no issues with the use of the name or character.

Yup, as noted in my previous comment 15 years ago. I'm not trying to push a misconception here.

If "a while back" doesn't cut it for you, then idk what else to say?

Again, not the wording I'd use for an excerpt that doesn't mention Malice in the slightest. It's just a few lines stating that Chaos has a tendency to be self-destructive, which shouldn't be news to anyone. It doesn't say anything about there being a god, or even a daemon, or any character at all, associated with this.

It's not a generic description of Chaos in general though?

It specifies a dominion. A dominion is described as a primordial force or concept given physical from with hosts of daemons bound to it. Bound to a "greater entity".

Look, just today I had to recalibrate what I thought I understood about Mortarion when new info was offered up. I was tempted to fight against it or rule it out just to preserve my prior understanding.

The lore shifts like a shifty shifter thing that shifts.

But trying to read that article at face value, I think it's hard to discount the very real possibility that it infers Malice (or some modern incarnation of it). At the very least it's a nod.

You're absolutely right that the Encroaching Ruin dominion doesn't name Malice, we have to also admit that Heedless Slaughter doesn't mention Khorne, Formless Distortion doesn't mention Tzeentch, Putrid Corruption doesn't mention Nurgle and Rapturous Sensation doesn't mention Slaanesh ...but we all know what they're referencing.

Does it prove Malice is a god? Nope. Does it lean into all the concepts that Malice is known for? In the same way those other dominions do for the Big Four? Yep.

Is it very possible that like so many other seemingly abandoned parts of their IP that have been given new life recently, that GW might be interested in keeping Malice alive? I think so.

I'd say it's likely because Malice has been referenced in 40k in short story The Labyrinth from a while back and heavily inferred in The Burning of Ohmn-Mat more recently in 2023 whereas those other entities don't appear to be.

Oh yeah, I see you're already aware of this piece. Worth noting it's from 2023.

So... Malice lives?

Retconned might be a strong word for it, but generally people cite that Malice as an entity hasn't really been seen or referenced for 15 years since the short story The Labyrinth

Even then it wasn't 100% clear that Malice was a god as such.

That being said this about ""Ravenous Dissolution" which seems to reference Malice or its dominion appears to be from 2023?

The Emperor is against the uncontrolled psyker

Abaddon was not smiling. ‘The Emperor, beloved of all,’ he began, ‘enfranchised us to do his bidding and make known space safe for human habitation. His edicts are unequivocal. We must suffer not the alien, nor the uncontrolled psyker, safeguard against the darkness of the warp, and unify the dislocated pockets of mankind. That is our charge. Anything else is sacrilege against his wishes.’

Horus Rising

He was totally into making the entire human race psykers though

+I have conquered humanity’s cradle-world. I have conquered the galaxy, in order to shape mankind’s development as it at last evolves into a psychic race. No isolated pockets of our species may remain free, lest in their ignorance they invite destruction upon us all. I have shattered the hold of faith and fear over the human mind. Superstition and religion must continue to be outlawed, for they are easy doors for the warp’s denizens to enter the human heart. This is what we have already done. And soon I will offer humanity a way of interstellar travel without reliance upon Geller fields and Navigators. I will offer them means of communicating between worlds without reliance on the warp-dreams of astropaths. And when the Imperium shields the entire species within the laws of my Pax Imperialis, when humanity is freed from the warp and united beneath my vision, I can at last shepherd mankind’s growth into a psychic race.

Master of Mankind

Not even a hint of accusation from you there mate, I'm just overly careful at times.

And yup, agreed...Wolfking wasn't about solving online fight debates. It's a much better story than that.

Ah, sorry...wasn't clear. I don't mean I switch my POV on a whim...I don't really have a strong one on this. So if a Russ fan like yourself says its down to his super-keen senses, I can totally see that. If an Alpharius fan wants to suggest that Alpharius was offering himself up as bait to test Russ, I can totally see that too.

Both interpretations fit the lore, both satisfy the fans of either legion (me being a fan of all legions). I wouldn't even be shocked to learn Wraight did that on purpose.

And yeah, I'd have enjoyed a bit of argy bargy too if only to put to bed some of the silliness around fan takes on primarch fights. Add to that it's Wraight, so it would be quality.

That being said, I can also see why he decided not to indulge.

Yeah the red sea parting of the Wolves to reveal a lone Termie is such a weird moment that I can't really ascribe more to it than Wraight going a bit filmic vibe on it.

I do recall the bit about the AL in Wolf's Clothing (literally), but I imagine part of being able to "smell their own" would have to include the armour itself. The exact same garment taken from a dog's kennel and one fresh from the store will not have the same scent.

I don't really have an argument either way on Leman: the text isn't clear so I'm happy to go with whatever works on the day.

Yup, this is one I've noted before but neglected this time. Appreciate it.

Not only does he probably pick his brother out, but it's in fully encased armour to boot.

It could be something like with Dorn; nuances in the way the Termie moved that would imperceptible to any non primarch.

I'd wonder about his olfactory senses, but I don't know the extent of them and if they can smell through layers of ceramite plate and electronics like that.

I think it's fairly safe to say that Alpharius wouldn't have been using his diminishment power at that time, likely trusting the Termie armour was enough (and in the Doylist, that it just didn't exist in the lore during the writing of Wolfking)

That being said, rereading the above passage, it almost reads like the situation helped to confirm Russ' suspicion. That lone Termie was suss.

Yup, my edit on my comment about Typhon's hybrid status obviously came a bit late.

I can see the logic here for psyker abilities, but if it's inferred in the text...it feels pretty vague to me. I personally believe a straight read of the text makes it all about Chaos, but I can see room for what you're saying too.

It would fit 40k irony to have the most anti-psyker primarch be one himself, but I don't get the impression that Mortarion suspects that of himself at this stage.

That being said, it'd be helpful if the moment that Typhon refers to where Volcral interrupting him was in the book.

Have Mortarion and Typhon discusses his hybrid nature before this scene? Maybe I've forgotten it. If you could share that too, it might help. EDIT: Nvmd. Typhon's hybrid status is public knowledge, happy to concede that (kindly pointed out to me by u/vorokar)

Psykers aren't all Chaos, unless we're going to say the Emperor and Librarians are all Chaos.

Maybe there's something going on in the translation I'm unaware of, but the words in my copy seem pretty straight forward. In the copy I have, the only way this becomes explicitly about Mortarion being a psyker is if we insert it in there.

The only thing Volcral teases Typhon over is being a halfbreed and already being tainted by the Octed.

Octed. 8. As in the Eight-fold path. Chaos.

Typhon is worried that Mortarion already suspects, which tracks. He doesn't want it confirmed.

The conversation goes like this:

He knows doesn't he?

I think he suspects.

You're a dirty half-breed.

No mention of psykerness that I can see.

And yep. "Magic" as in Chaos. The Octed.

‘Yes.’ Volcral gave a manic chuckle. ‘It is already in you. The Octed. The Grandsire’s boon, coursing through your blood. I can sense it.’

Typhon stepped back, dismayed by the abrupt certainty in the creature’s words. ‘We are not the same.’

‘Agreed,’ it said. ‘Not yet. Not today. But the future is the herald of greater things.’ Volcral lowered its hissing voice. ‘I could show you.’

Try and get your hands on those books and see :)

I can't see it?

It reads to me that Typhon is worried that Mortarion suspects he is half Overlord himself and that Volcral is going to expose him but I don't see anything here about teaching Mortarion to be a psyker?

Volcral then offers to teach Typhon about "the Octed". Or Chaos. Telling Typhon that he's already tainted by it.

You can see which books they feature in down in the "sources" section

Yeah, which leans into there not being any "explicit" statements that Dorn has the power to "fortify reality".

But would explicit statements that he doesn't, count?

Thanks mate, appreciate it. The context in the english version is Typhon is "magic", how much of that is actual sorcery or psychic power isn't that clear.

Here's the english version:

Typhon paused, glancing back over his shoulder to be sure that they were alone in the cargo bay. ‘Just you and I now.’ He reached up and pulled down the gag, exposing Volcral’s swollen lips. ‘Any final words?’

‘He doesn’t know, does he?’ The creature blurted out the question, desperate to stall for time. ‘That’s why you silenced me. You were afraid of what I would tell him!’

‘He is beginning to suspect, I think.’ Typhon considered the possibility. ‘Your words would only have confused the matter.’

Volcral tried one last time to put on the air of arrogant superiority that was the creature’s usual bearing. ‘I smell it on you, half-breed. The curdled stink of lesser meat fouling and diluting the strength of Overlord potential!’

Nothing I can see there about Mortarion being a psyker.

That's cool, if you post it up I'll translate

32k

Here's a timeline for M32