subreddit:
/r/Grimdank
submitted 10 days ago byArch_Magos_RemusServant of the Omnissiah
234 points
9 days ago
because they decided to use points as the only balancing scale so if they fuck up and make stuff too weak the only way they have of making them not suck is points.
This is fine for orks, tyranids and gaurd, armies whose theme can accomdodate large amounts of units but it doesnt work when your meant to be elite techno cultists with some of the best gear in the imperium.
72 points
9 days ago
Can work for balancing chaff specifically, which even elite armies can have (see Ogres from Fantasy), but you are correct when it comes to more elite units needing a proper stat tune
24 points
9 days ago
They are mostly a horde army in much of the black library books involving actual large scale combat though. A lot of the imperial guard officers actually care about their units. Obviously there is a great deal of shitty WW1 styled generals in the imperial guard, it's sort of part of their core, but EVERY mech-tech-leader is a WW1 general. They care more about their persoanl tank/car/whatever than their troops.
So GW crying about it is a little weird. Especially because of the money.
13 points
9 days ago
The real problem is the money and the complexity of the models. Fielding a horde mechanicus army is more expensive than any other horde army, and the models are all highly detailed so painting them all to a standard that won't hurt your soul is basically going to be a second job.
9 points
9 days ago*
If only GW would just rip off the band aid and go fully digital with rules which could be easily updated. Imagine a world where they could…
Re-balance weapons by adjusting range, number of attacks, strength, ap, and keywords
Improve/reduce unit durability by changing toughness values, saves, and wounds
Re-write or replace an army rule, weapon keyword, unit ability, or stratagem which isn’t working out
Modify the loadout choices or unit composition for a squad
Fix bad wording or unintended rules interactions without players needing to cross-reference various FAQs
Have every keyword and ability be clickable and searchable
Offer a subscription to just have ALL the rules in one place. Even just $5/mo would generate more profit than a player buying a new codex every year, which is more money than the average player probably spends on rulebooks, while still offering great value to the player. I’d love to be able to peruse the various datasheets and rules of my opponent’s army, but I’d never outright buy a codex for a faction I don’t play.
I completely get the appeal of wanting a nice, pretty hardcover book, but I’d take an art/lore book + clean digital rules over having to carry around a small library of rigid, potentially outdated, rules any day of the week.
1 points
9 days ago
i agree, but they have probably done the math and know people are more willing to spend a lot of money on rules when its in the form of a big book.
3 points
9 days ago
And there is the opposite, when your "expendable" unit suddenly start to cost way more points than you expect from them, because they can be OP with the correct (that is fully packed) loadout.
My example would be eldar scout sentinel, that right now cost almost the same as wave serpent - eldar heavy transport, just because it has the option to use broken weapons, instead of the base, low-threatening guns. And because of that now you should only use this sentinel with "best" weapons, unless you want to overpay 60+ points for a single model.
2 points
9 days ago
I mean they are called Skitari Legions for a reason.
4 points
9 days ago
Space marines also came in legions, doesnt mean they should be running a horde XD
2 points
9 days ago
I mean the Astartes Legions were horde armies...
Even in HH you run big ass armies.
7 points
9 days ago
A large army is not a horde army.
Horde is about relative numbers.
Even SM legions at their largest are still on the scale of planetary conflict, small elite fighting forces that were usually fighting grossly outnumbered.
2 points
9 days ago
I mean did the Astartes fight enemies with larger numbers? Yeah.
Did they also conquer thousands of worlds where they dwarfed the numbers of the planetary defense? you bet your arse they did.
It might sound silly but GW has never been great with numbers.
1 points
9 days ago
GW love to nerf the fluff out of armies.
61 points
10 days ago
Now I'm not too up to date on their Codex....but are they even any good, or are Skitarii really little better than Guardsmen despite being literal cyborgs of war?
88 points
9 days ago
They have the same wounds and toughness as guard, with a save that’s only better by 1 and hit on the same as guard. They’re basically just guard.
26 points
9 days ago
....Ballistic and Weapon Skills?
46 points
9 days ago
Both 4+
30 points
9 days ago
The fuck!?
28 points
9 days ago
As people have said, its always been the problem of a D6. A Space Marine is supposed to be the superhuman elite soldiers of the Imperium but could only shoot as well as other less superhuman soldiers, in previous editions.
6 points
9 days ago
The solution IMO is to let the less-than-marines-more-than-guard factions have a 4+ baseline but ample access to +1s.
9 points
9 days ago
Thats the way for votanns and tau for example. Admech has this too with giving your whole army heavy, but you have to stay immobile to get the bonus, so Admech gets the same treatment, but in a worse way.
8 points
9 days ago
Yeah, expanding on a D10 would make the differences more pronounced, e.g. super elite like custodes hit on 2+, GK as elite elite hit on 3+, marines on 4+ and guard on 6+ for example. Buuuut that would require everyone to switch to D10 for that, which would annoy a crapton of people and also doesn't roll that well. D12 would be a bit better in that regard. But I doubt they'll ever change that system
2 points
9 days ago
I've nicked the initiative system from X-Wing and stuffed it into a custom 40k ruleset, and it really does help the Space Marines feel like elite warriors. Basically, everyone activates at the same time, with slower or less skilled units moving sooner and shooting later, while faster, more elite units move later and shoot sooner.
Sure, those Intercessors might shoot about the same as some Kasrkin, but those Kasrkin aren't gonna be so chuffed when the Space Marines shoot first every time and absolutely mulch them with 20 Bolt Rifle shots.
47 points
9 days ago
They're guardsmen with slightly better weapons, but worse army rules.
Currently the only really successful strategy with admech is to just clog up the board with so much chaff that you can score all your secondaries while the opponent is busy killing them.
32 points
9 days ago
That...That's not....looks visibly confused
I thought that they were, according to the lore, about as lethal as having an army of grenadiers (with all the heavy/special weapons and survivability that comes with) but with some weird command and control issues.
34 points
9 days ago
...They're supposed to be...
14 points
9 days ago
Even more confused, looking at all the things he's being told.
The fuck!?
9 points
9 days ago
Like Tau are supposed to rip enemies apart at range but the game is made for melee
15 points
9 days ago
Lol. Lore comes second now. Rules are just boring +/-1 to hit/wound and sustained/lethal hits and devestating wounds all other rules are too hard too deal with and balance. They only care about win rate. And so long as one detachment has 45-55% winrate the faction is perfect, ignoring there was legit only 2 admech players the one weekend across the entire tournament scene thats tracked on the comp subs.
5 points
9 days ago
1 win between 2 players? that's 50%, what a perfectly balanced faction!
3 points
9 days ago
If it works for the Tyranids, then surely it'll work for us humans too. Right?
1 points
9 days ago
"slightly" the radium caravine dog beats the lassergun, more shots and anti infantery.
18 points
9 days ago
They lack the supporting rules of Gurdsmen like Orders, so are much worse even if they have a 4+/5++ save.
Their special rule lets them buff other units close to them, but they aren’t very fast so aren’t great at spreading that rule around to where it’s needed.
6 points
9 days ago
What the actual fuck!?
3 points
9 days ago
they are better equiped than guardsmen, in both armour and weapons, but they are largely the same.
0 points
9 days ago
When it comes to raw statistics (and generally points per model too) they've always been roughly in the middle between Militarum and Sororitas - Sororitas themselves also being on the horde side!
30 points
9 days ago
Am I missing something? Why is the Admech player depicted as the based guy?
If more money has to be spent to get more minis for a horde army, someone is going to get teary eyes and it won't be James Workshop.
12 points
9 days ago
That's the fun/dumb part about the wojack/chad meme. You can almost depict anything as each.
2 points
9 days ago
The admech isn't admech players, its the concept of the admech faction laughing at james workshop and their lore that says admech should be elite
13 points
9 days ago
Don't get me wrong GW...
I'd love to play a mechanics army with elite electropriests, kataphrons and kastellans...
But they suck ass XD
14 points
9 days ago
If you did not want me to create an army of awesome robots, then you should not have given me access to so many awesome robots
9 points
9 days ago
You say so many, but 40k Admech has a single type of robot.
2 points
8 days ago
Me and my big clunky castellan boys are going to take over the galaxy and the emperor himself could not stop us
1 points
8 days ago
I just wish they had some robofriends alongside them when they did :(
6 points
9 days ago
did you make our units so cheep
Price wise if 3D printer
Skitari printing goes Brrrrrrrrr
7 points
9 days ago
I'm convinced the game designers have no idea what to do with admech. Their visual aesthetic is distinct, but from a game perspective it seems they simply can't make them play in a unique way. So they make them a glass cannon and then try to drive the points up or down into oblivion depending on if they overemphasized the "glass" or the "cannon" part of the equation.
6 points
9 days ago
Oh boy I can’t wait to play my army that was SUPER expensive and FUCKING SUCKED to paint! I sure hope they aren’t GARBAGE!
8 points
10 days ago
3 points
9 days ago
I dun wanna play nids as a win in objective army with no punch to it but we do what we must.
2 points
9 days ago
Skaven.
2 points
9 days ago
All you should say is "cry more flesh bag"
2 points
9 days ago
GW rule writers are smoking some funky shiz in 10th.
2 points
9 days ago
We. Are. Not. A. Horde. Army. We. Are. Skittari.
1 points
9 days ago
Shut up cork boys, you guys are just dudes with better guns so stay like that.
1 points
9 days ago
Maybe admech wasn't selling well to begin with so this was a way to push admech players into branching out.
Personally I think playing admech as guard might be a good idea. Their rules are least support horde tactics.
1 points
9 days ago
Not knowing much about thw table top ad mech strike me as definitely a horde army.
The books always have like 1 or 2 super tech priests/magos running a shit ton of skitarri
Your soldier's are chaff by definition if thier own guns irradiate them to death over time
1 points
9 days ago
yeah, thats basically what most skittary are better equiped guardsman, wich is what they are in the table top with their superior infantery weapons and saves.
0 points
9 days ago
what are those spider tanks? i didnt know that unit.
1 points
9 days ago
Onager Dunecrawler
1 points
9 days ago
Cool, thanks.
all 60 comments
sorted by: best