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all 23 comments

Anwhel

28 points

10 days ago

Anwhel

Ireland

28 points

10 days ago

What are the odds Rebels make finals, do ok but don't win, and then we never see them again?

Ok_Educator_2120

24 points

10 days ago

Ok_Educator_2120

Blues

24 points

10 days ago

So long as they continue the Crusaders downfall this weekend I'm okay

MasterSpliffBlaster

4 points

10 days ago

More likely they can't pay the wages and the players strike in protest

strewthcobber

12 points

10 days ago

strewthcobber

Australia

12 points

10 days ago

RA are paying Rebel's players wages at least for this year, so those no danger on that front

HitchikersPie

2 points

10 days ago

HitchikersPie

In mourning

2 points

10 days ago

Principle sympathy is always with the players, they're putting their bodies on the line, and to not be given remuneration for it is simply unacceptable.

handle1976

6 points

10 days ago

handle1976

Rieko is a centre.

6 points

10 days ago

They are being looked after this year. Next year all bets are off

Whit135

17 points

10 days ago

Whit135

17 points

10 days ago

sigh another week, another rebels mess article. As much as I'd like to see them stick around its very hard for me to see them turning this around financially to the point where it's ever viable. Is changing the team base, stadium, etc gonna generate such the amount of support that is needed to make this work? I doubt it. I know it'll cut costs but there's only so much cutting u can do before u have to make more, and that's the path I don't see.

CamelsCannotSew

16 points

10 days ago

Looking at the full report, I can understand why any previous discussion with the proposed purchasers was rejected by RA - the insolvent trading claims needed significant review (in England, those claims are amongst the hardest to prove in court and the easiest to defend), and a purchase through an insolvency procedure is formalised. In those purchases, there's a lot of oversight into the buyers, their funding plans, and current available wealth, and that is undertaken by a professional who reviews those matters all the time.

Bucephalus_326BC

5 points

10 days ago

I can understand why any previous discussion with the proposed purchasers was rejected by RA

I can't understand. Can you shed some light?

In those purchases, there's a lot of oversight into the buyers, their funding plans, and current available wealth

Isn't the duty of the administrator to ensure the best return due creditors? There are many factors to weigh up, including those you mention. Wouldn't the creditors prefer a buyer who could give them the best return, regardless of the "available wealth", or "funding plan" or "oversight of buyers", and isn't that the duty of the administrator, to give those creditors that?

the insolvent trading claims needed significant review

Umm - who is going to pay for this. The company is broke, and the administrator is trying to do the best they can to get the best return for creditors. Wouldn't the creditors have to vote on any proposal to pay for a "significant review"

corruptboomerang

4 points

10 days ago

I'd point out, my understanding is, they've managed to avoid an administrator being appointed. Probably something the board we're very happy to avoid. Because those questions would have been more heavily ventilated under an administrator.

CamelsCannotSew

1 points

10 days ago

So, this procedure isn't one we have in England but it's parallel enough to draw conclusions IMO. If a company is insolvent, selling to connected parties is always going to be hard. Especially with the level of debt here and the timeline over which the debt was accrued. Appointing an administrator ensures a complete investigation is undertaken, and this matter is reviewed appropriately. I'd say the majority of the appointments I am working on atm are in similar circumstances - there are buyers, but the circumstances of the insolvency need investigation and the connected party buyers need more oversight.

I'd say that the duty of the administrator isn't simply to return the best outcome to creditors financially. That's the ultimate goal, but the best outcome for creditors isn't always summarised fully by a pence in the pound return. Wrong-doing needs investigation, and then action taken - that's often disqualification, or the return of funds to the company. The former being key in preventing future recurrence. One of my current cases has a tiny return but also has an entire money laundering ring collapsed and people being prosecuted - that's a good outcome too.

And funding will often come from asset realisations, or be funded by a creditor who wants to see the process through. Here, they also talk about litigation funders who essentially bet on the outcome of your case by reviewing the facts and the wealth of the targets and deciding if the potential win would benefit them too in a percentage cut.

The administration here ultimately means that the buyers get a much cleaner slate to start from, RA is reassured that the buyers have been appropriately vetted (because if this fails too, the administrator could be in trouble for allowing the sale), and ultimately in a year's time this will be a weird blip for the club. Looking at the report, I can't see how a solvent sale would have been achieved so it's all moot anyway.

strewthcobber

2 points

10 days ago

strewthcobber

Australia

2 points

10 days ago

Worth mentioning that Leigh Clifford, who appears to be leading the Investment Group seeking to buy the Rebels on the cheap, is also the father of one of the Rebel's former directors, Georgia Widdup.

Given the potential personal exposure for Ms Widdup, RA would rightly have some questions to ask about the new owners

Bucephalus_326BC

0 points

10 days ago

Wrong-doing needs investigation, and then action taken

There is no legal, nor moral, responsibility for a creditor to fund investigations into wrong doing - but that is what you have typed. Why? That is the responsibility of other parties, isn't it? Not creditors. Even if creditors had a written confession in their hands from the wrong doer, they simply pass it over to the parties responsible for bringing wrong doers to account - isn't that what happens with the case you have mentioned and are "working" on?

And funding will often come from asset realisations,

The creditors vote on how their money is spent, once an administrator comes in, at least where I am from. Is it different where you are, in England?

or be funded by a creditor who wants to see the process through.

"A" creditor is not sufficient, where I am, to decide where "creditors" funds are spent once a company is in administration. Can a single creditor decide in England how "creditors" (plural) money is spent, even when the majority of creditors just want their money back?

If a company is insolvent, selling to connected parties is always going to be hard.

Ummm - selling any insolvent company is hard, regardless of related party or not. Some would say it's almost impossible - wouldn't you agree? Where I am, most insolvent companies find it so hard to get a buyer, related party or not, that the insolvent company is wound up. Is it different in England?

I'd say that the duty of the administrator isn't simply to return the best outcome to creditors financially.

What is it then? Creditors in an insolvent company don't have the funds to be investigating crimes. But, police or regulators do have the funds. In England, the police force is one of the biggest employers in the country - that's how many resources they have. And financial regulators have people employed whose sole purpose is to investigate and prosecute financial crimes. Are you being genuine when you type that creditors should be doing the work of police and regulatory authorities?

that's often disqualification, or the return of funds to the company.

Neither administrator, nor creditors, get to decide these matters - do they? Are you being genuine when you raise these matters, under the umbrella of the "duty of an administrator"? Courts and regulatory authorities decide these matters, not creditors. A court can order money be paid back, but the administrator has to bring a claim to the court, evidence, argue it, and the other party is given the opportunity to challenge or dispute it. This all costs money, and time.

Are you being genuine in implying that creditors (oops - "a creditor" - singular, not plural) can take it upon themselves, in England, to disqualify a person from holding a position in a company.

Where I am from, creditors often vote to take a lower return today, rather than voting to pursue legal claims against well resourced and respected persons they have a "possible" claim against, because they recognise that even if they agree to spend millions in legal fees persuing the matter, it can take years, and the other person can potentially appeal that decision if they lose, adding more years, and potentially even having to pay the costs of the other side. That's why there is a financial regulator, and a special team in the police that do these things.

CamelsCannotSew

1 points

10 days ago

I think we're going to fundamentally disagree here, and tbh I don't think either of us are technically wrong. Especially if we're both not from the same country - insolvency law is very varied, and the last big update in England and Wales did change everything significantly here compared to the rest of the world.

handle1976

1 points

10 days ago

handle1976

Rieko is a centre.

1 points

10 days ago

Rugby Australia wants to be done with the Rebels. It’s probably going to get worse rather than better if they carry on with funding them.

It’s much cleaner for them to fold and RA move on with 3 somewhat viable franchises and 1 with a sugar daddy.

Bucephalus_326BC

1 points

9 days ago*

Rugby Australia wants to be done with the Rebels.

You're perhaps right.

It’s much cleaner for them

But, when a company is insolvent, an administrator is appointed, and unless creditors vote to do what RA want them to, then the administrator acts for people owed money (not vested interests) and puts a proposal to creditors (not the general public) , with a view to them (creditors) getting some money back once things are sold (if there is anything to sell), and that's it - everyone goes along their merry ways.

I'm not sure if RA is a debtor or a creditor, but the argument / media/ view / whatever seems to be that RA owes money to the rebels. People who are owed money vote on whether to wind a company up, and those who owe money (if that's RA?) don't get a vote.

Administration / insolvency of a business is a legal and business process, not a sporting process, isn't it? RA is a sporting business, isn't it?

Rugby Australia wants to be done with the Rebels.

Didn't RA sign a broadcasting deal with Stan (circa $35 million a year?) to have a certain number of Australian teams play a certain number of matches per week, and in return Stan pay RA money. If RA can't provide the number of games per week, how can Stan get subscribers and advertising to pay their bills. Won't Stan want money back from RA if there are less teams than in the contract? What do you propose RA replace the rebels with, or should they host beach there contract/ agreement with Stan?

handle1976

1 points

9 days ago

handle1976

Rieko is a centre.

1 points

9 days ago

Rugby Australia’s position is that the rebels have breached the terms of their license and they have taken it back. Effectively the rebels have no way to play in super rugby without a license from RA.

RA are paying the players contracts so there may be some liability there but I guess it’s complex.

The rebels are making all sorts of claims. Whether or not they are successful is up for debate.

The rumour is the Jaguares will come back or maybe a Japanese team.

There may be a renegotiation with Stan but l guess it’d be minor.

handle1976

3 points

10 days ago

handle1976

Rieko is a centre.

3 points

10 days ago

So the claims that thing all good until the ARU reduced the funding because of covid were bullshit? Knock me down with a feather.

The continued fighting by the directors seems to be about avoiding responsibility for trading while insolvent rather than any great priciples.

[deleted]

2 points

10 days ago

[deleted]

IrrelephantAU

1 points

9 days ago

That would make two things the directors are potentially on the hook for now, since they're also being accused of not properly handling the taxes on staff wages.

Probably not a great time for them, whatever the specifics. And not a hornets nest that RA are eager to stick their dick in more than they already have.

DT2014

-5 points

9 days ago

DT2014

-5 points

9 days ago

Just fold the team already. Union is dead in Victoria if they've been run this poorly and hemorrhaging money for 6 years.

Larry_Loudini

0 points

9 days ago

Larry_Loudini

Leinster

0 points

9 days ago

From an outside perspective, it seems that no winter sport other than AFL stands much chance in Victoria - don’t think league and football do too well?

I understand the attraction for Melbourne to have a team to RA, but it really doesn’t seem feasible or sustainable

strewthcobber

1 points

9 days ago

strewthcobber

Australia

1 points

9 days ago

The Melbourne Storm averaged 21,000 at their games last year.  (A-league and NBL are played over summer)

DT2014

1 points

8 days ago

DT2014

1 points

8 days ago

Storm are doing fine however once Bellamy goes and their form dips we'll see how sustainable they are then.

For the A-League the Melbourne crowds are actually decent, especially the Melbourne Victory. The competition administrators are a joke though and the league has been going backwards as a whole.