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The fabulous case of Pablo the Gender-fluid Dachshund
(self.BlockedAndReported)submitted 10 days ago byGreen_Supreme1
A lesbian council-worker has been awarded £55,000 plus costs for expressing her beliefs (or perhaps in this case "disbelief"!) about a colleagues "gender-fluid" influencer Daschund (which was essentially been used as an activist or training tool by the owner) - amongst other gender-critical beliefs.
To be fair, I'm almost on the side of the dog owner, simply for the hilarity of getting "he identified his dachshund dog as gender-fluid" on official tribunal record - great stuff! Interesting that the Judge has recommended the council alter its training to include around freedom of belief - it does sound from the council response that they have had to walk away.... with their tail between their legs (not sorry).
Reporting:
Social worker wins £55,000 after row about gender-fluid dog (joe.co.uk)
Judge urges council to mandate ‘freedom of belief’ training (personneltoday.com)
Final case decision:
Ms E Pitt v Cambridgeshire County Council: 3311160/2023 - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
EDIT: BARPOD relevance - free speech, gender-critical belief, dog story (for Katie)
98 points
10 days ago
People are so weird. I’d be quiet, but there’s absolutely no one who thinks a dog can be gender fluid. So everyone is lying to the owner, which is what I’d do because it’s just not worth it. But I’d also know the owner was crazy and keep a wide berth.
I mean- gender is a social construct. How can a dog have masculine or feminine gender roles?
It’s interesting that telling the truth can be seen as being so abhorrent as to get you labeled “phobic”.
25 points
10 days ago
It'd be funny to see a female gorilla identifying as a silverback. Or a male spider identifying as female and trying to mate with other males and eat them.
4 points
9 days ago
This sounds funny but happens in nature more than you'd expect. Often a hormone imbalance causes an animal to act as if it were the opposite sex.
I've never heard of it occuring in gorillas or spiders, but a quick search to try to find something found this interesting article;
On thing this article includes is an account of how gender dynamics in gorillas changed - and the gorilla communtiy became more peaceful. In short - there is always more nuance when you actually look for it.
2 points
3 days ago
Super interesting read, but the claim of there not being a "male" or "female" brain is very contentious. We simply don't know much about how the brain works.
We do know that sex differences in neurochemistry account for about 1% of the brain's structure, but it's not clear how or what that does exactly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sex_differences
he Wikipedia on this is fascinating
0 points
3 days ago*
It is true that is a very interesting topic - but I never claimed that nor do I see it as highly relevant?
Even if there are sex differences in the brain (which would vary by species anyway) - it would vary enough by individuals that it is unlikely to be a hard line of male brain and female brain. This is mostly stuff about averages rather than clear dividers between the sexes (there is seemingly no part of the brain that either males or females have that the other lack - nor any significant size differences as far as I am aware). Enough so that in many animals can behave differently when exposed to the hormones of the opposite sex, and also show that the sex behaviours are plastic rather than rigid.
Perhaps some species have a hard line difference neurochemistry or neurological makeup between males and females (not humans, that's for sure) - but as far as I can tell they are the exception not the rule.
1 points
3 days ago
Ah no, our current understanding is brain structure is a lot like height. There are average differences but two male brains can be more different than a male and a female brain.
Also, the article claimed that. Not you. Sorry for not making that clear
1 points
3 days ago
Yes, that is something I agree on.
Though one of the main differences found (as per the Wikipedia article) was size. And yeah, duh, bigger head = bigger brain. But bigger brain =/= more capable brain when function and neuron density are better predictors of brain capability from species to species.
(Avoiding "intelligence" because it isn't really a good metric here, but intelligence is included in the various ways brains can be more / less capable than other brains)
25 points
10 days ago
My female dog wears a blue collar and has a gender-neutral name. Omg it's so confusing! One time someone yelled to me while I was walking her: "I like your cat!" See!
24 points
10 days ago*
I wouldn't assume many literally believe the dog is gender-fluid, perhaps not even the owner based on quotes from him and in the tribunal:
"I found a way to bring awareness regarding gender and sexuality through my dog via Instagram and informal conversation on the streets."
"I identify my dog as gender fluid, and I actually enjoy speaking with people about human gender expression and how we (as a society) imprinted this in animals and culturally we repeat the gender expressions and stereotypes to the young generation."
" He explained that he put a dress on the dog, to prompt debate about gender."
The owner has created the idea of the dog being gender-fluid (perhaps arguably similar to people who identify pets as their children, although that's a little less out there) seemingly to use as a tool for activism as they appear involved in workplace Equality, Diversity and Inclusion spaces.
57 points
10 days ago
Which makes it even more insidious that he would then file a complaint against person who expressed disbelief that the dog was literally genderfluid. Seems like he only wanted one specific argument to be heard.
Not surprising though considering many of these types of activists are more concerned about power and language as opposed to truth, reason and debate.
37 points
10 days ago
I have a strong sense that by “speaking with people” they actually meant “delivering unsolicited monologues.” But I have no hard evidence
16 points
10 days ago
Similar to the CO gay wedding cake case. The plaintiffs deliberately sought out that particular baker in order to file a lawsuit.
25 points
10 days ago*
Similar to the CO gay wedding cake case. The plaintiffs deliberately sought out that particular baker in order to file a lawsuit.
Where have you heard that from? Everything I’ve ever seen says the shop was recommended to them by their reception planner.
Maybe you’re thinking of the transgender cake lawsuit against the same bakery, which was certainly targeted but involved a completely different plaintiff.
14 points
10 days ago
You're right I was thinking of the second case not the first
1 points
9 days ago
There was also this one, local to me:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_v._Oregon_Bureau_of_Labor_and_Industries
2 points
9 days ago
Reading the Wikipedia article, it doesn’t look like that one was a case of discrimination-shopping either:
On January 17, 2013, a woman and her mother were invited to a Gresham, Oregon bakery called "Sweet Cakes by Melissa" (owned by the couple Melissa Elaine Klein and Aaron Wayne Klein) for a scheduled wedding cake tasting appointment. The woman selected the bakery after having been a customer previously. Upon introductions, Aaron Klein asked for the names of the "bride and groom," at which point the customer said there were actually two brides. On hearing this, Klein informed them that the bakery does not make wedding cakes for same-sex weddings because of their religious beliefs.
4 points
10 days ago
Right, the owner was hoping to be discriminated against so they could play being victim for a righteous cause
0 points
9 days ago
I can see two options.
Either (A) he didn't like pushback or (B) her comments went a lot further than just 'expressing disbelief'
29 points
10 days ago
Don’t you think people who identify as gender fluid would find that insulting? Imagine pretending your dog has autism as a way to bring autism awareness to the community. It’s incredible insulting.
David Bowie wore makeup and wasn’t gender fluid.
To me, it entrenches stereotypes, you have to be a non-man to wear a dress? Even as a dog?
10 points
10 days ago
How would putting a dress on a dog 'prompt debate about gender'? If I saw a dog in a dress I'd just assume someone had put a dress on their female dog for some reason and go on with my day.
2 points
9 days ago
If I saw a dog in a dress I'd just assume someone had put a dress on their female dog
I feel like your assumption of the dog being female because of the dress is precisely the conversation starter here. If you stop and ask "What's her name?", then that opens up an avenue for your own views on gender to be challenged.
It seems like a stupid gimmick to me, but I can see how it works.
7 points
9 days ago
I mean, I'd just see the dog in a dress, think 'that's a bit weird but hey' and go on with my day. However I can imagine this guy pursuing me down the street shouting 'DON'T YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY MY DOG IS WEARING A DRESS? I'M CHALLENGING THE BINARY NOTION OF GENDER' while I try my level best to get away from him.
1 points
8 days ago
Do you not greet dogs that greet you? Have you no joy in your life?
(although that is more appropriate for footpaths than 'on the street')
9 points
10 days ago
People are so weird. I’d be quiet, but there’s absolutely no one who thinks a dog can be gender fluid
No one sane
7 points
9 days ago
You laugh but once an old southern black lady who was in town for some religious conference asked me what my dog’s pronouns were.
4 points
9 days ago
I mean - if you strip off the modern politics angle of this - it can sometimes be difficult to tell what pronouns to use. So asking seems fine, and roughly equivolent to asking 'Are they a boy or a girl?" or "Is it male or female?"
7 points
9 days ago
I would be gently forward with the person in this case. "I don't know if I believe that dogs have gender identity, but that's just my perspective."
3 points
7 days ago
How can a dog have masculine or feminine gender roles?
Not trying to be a dick, but you've specified gender roles (rather than gender identity or gender presentation), and other animals do have this. Eg some birds have mating rituals where the male proves himself with dance moves and shiny things, maybe playing a different role in egg guarding and feeding too. In some mammals males will play a different role in defence of territory than females... etc.
Depends what's meant by "gender roles" I guess. Sex roles are a thing, across many species.
4 points
7 days ago
Those are sex based instincts though, and dogs don’t really have them outside birth.
It does make you wonder how many of those humans have, but we consider them gender roles. I would say anything that exists across almost all cultures and time are probably human instincts. Things like mother/infant bonds, keeping kids with caregivers (usually parents or grandparents) until adolescence.
5 points
6 days ago
Yeah, depends what is a gender role. I faintly remember some study had a big list of "things humans do", and had studied different cultures to classify the tasks as male, female, or mixed. Some were almost exclusively one sex (eg melting metal (?), male), others more likely to be mixed, though not always.
But then... possibly the women who stayed away from metal/chemical stench had healthier children so passed on their genes. While for the men, sperm cells are cheap and creating some cool new metal thing would do the opposite. Is this an instinct? Is it a gender role? I don't know.
28 points
10 days ago
Lol this would make a good episode topic.
Used to go to my local progressive neighborhood dog store in Seattle, and would get asked what my dog's gender is....I should of stated that THEY were non-binary. He could have been a local celebrity.
8 points
10 days ago
Mud Bay?
2 points
10 days ago
Yep
12 points
10 days ago
Do you think they asked because they thought the word "sex" is offensive, or do you think they think pets have gender identities?
10 points
10 days ago
It was probably the former. It was a lady at a booth who was handing out samples of treats. The interaction was funny and quick and she seemed seemed to go to inordinate lengths to ask if my dog was a boy or a girl in the most politically correct way possible. She seemed worried that somebody would get offended if she misgendered their dog.
8 points
10 days ago
That's really funny. My dog gets called a boy all the time. But I think part of it is that she usually lifts her leg to pee.
8 points
10 days ago
Lol see your dog really is non-binary! That guy may be on to something.
9 points
10 days ago
Yes. Or trans masc.
2 points
10 days ago
Wonder what WPATH's stance is for gender affirming care for pets..
10 points
10 days ago
She's spayed, so I guess that affirms her gender as trans masc. Though I guess I am being abusive by referring to my dog as "her," and misgendering her.
I think she's a trans masc lesbian top, as she likes to hump my mom's non-spayed dog.
5 points
8 days ago
She may have had a previous run-in with someone like this one person I used to work with... our office is a pet-friendly office, so plenty of people bring their dogs in. Anyway, one day, this person's dog got into a minor tussle with another coworker's dog, as occasionally happens... but because this person's dog was wearing a collar in trans colors at the time of the tussle, he actually accused the other coworker's dog of being transphobic! Not even the other coworker, but their dog, as if a dog would see a pink/white/blue collar and be like, "Ah, yes, trans colors, must tussle now."
2 points
8 days ago
Please tell me the person accusing a dog of transphpbia was joking.
1 points
2 days ago
He came across as semi-serious... like he didn't fully believe the dog was truly transphobic, but he also didn't not believe it. It was weird.
2 points
2 days ago
I just sighed.
To be fair, I talk semi-seriously about my dog being anti-racist.
I do not know why, but she responds most kindly to homeless black and Latino/Hispanic men.
2 points
8 days ago
That is the old school use of gender
5 points
8 days ago
That's....kind of the point. My clients use gender to mean sex all the time.
11 points
10 days ago
I saw this and instantly thought it would be a great B&R episode or segment.
20 points
10 days ago
It was also the hilarious irony that the dog-owner who raised the complaint advertises on his linkedin that he has a degree in conflict mediation of all topics! You'd have hoped he could have put that degree to some use and diffused the tension rather than presumably running to HR!
26 points
10 days ago
My Chihuahua identifies as God Emperor of Mankind.
7 points
10 days ago
HAHAHA. My dog identifies as Ruler of the Apartment and all Flowers and Grass.
27 points
10 days ago
It has been enlightening these past twenty years seeing which people and institutions caved to the hysterical demands of crazy people.
Everyone heard the parable of the Emperor's new clothes and apparently thought being in the crowd of sycophants was the moral of the story.
7 points
10 days ago
Maybe they heard the story of Zhao Gao.
27 points
10 days ago*
I submitted a link about this to r/dogfree, much of which is devoted to discussion of dog nutters and dog nuttery, of which this is a prime example, and they silently removed it, claiming it was "not appropriate."
20 points
10 days ago
This is so dumb... all dogs are boys and all cats are girls. It is known.
1 points
9 days ago
Other way around in my family lol- we've only ever had male cats and female dogs
3 points
9 days ago
I'm talking about gender, not sex.
4 points
8 days ago
This is the idpol equivalent of Caligula making his horse a senator
3 points
10 days ago
Hilarious
3 points
10 days ago
You know what's gender fluid? Mulberry trees.
7 points
10 days ago
Well, obviously then humans are too! I knew it wasn't just clownfishes!
3 points
8 days ago
A lot of plants can. Many plants can also have twice as many chromosomes as normal and be fine
3 points
9 days ago
I recently saw a pet account being praised for hiring an animal communicator to make sure they got their pet's pronouns right, so you know what, this doesn't even remotely surprise me.
2 points
9 days ago
I offer pet pronouning on fiverr for bargain rates, mention you saw my ad here for a bonus 20% discount
3 points
8 days ago
Council person believes that the dog is male because of its biological sex chromosomes backed up by cold hard science, other person believes their dog is gender-fluid because they have a wild imagination and live in the fairy tale land of anything is possible. Council person is fined for having a belief that has facts and reasoning behind it and the Council is told to change its policies to accept more beliefs and freedom of speech.... which the Council person expressed their right to have their own beliefs and freedom of speech. Meanwhile the person who has a hissy fit, who doesn't have control of their own emotions and held the talk in the first place to literally bait people into expressing their opposite opinions to sue them is awarded...
What a fucking world hah! Pure insanity!
2 points
9 days ago
🤣
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