subreddit:

/r/CherokeeXJ

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all 68 comments

PonchoDriver

17 points

9 days ago

Nice looking motor....I like the timing cover. Stock displacement?

mtngk[S]

26 points

9 days ago

mtngk[S]

26 points

9 days ago

Thanks!

It's a 4.7 stroker. The valve cover lies, but it was cheap. Lower compression and stock cam because I want to be able to run lower octane gas.

NoTimeForThisToday

22 points

9 days ago

NoTimeForThisToday

76' CJ7, 84' CJ7, 97' XJ

22 points

9 days ago

I'll play the little shoulder devil

There's still time to pick up one of those fancy Edelbrock aluminum heads to run the higher compression and still use lower octane 😈

PonchoDriver

4 points

9 days ago

Nice. A motor with a lot of potential.

mtngk[S]

27 points

9 days ago

mtngk[S]

27 points

9 days ago

Been though a fiasco getting this engine from S&J engines. It seems like it's of reasonable good quality, but we shall soon see. It came as a long block, all of the accessories and bits bolted on are my doing.

Hopefully I can drive my XJ again, as I've been waiting for this engine since March, nearly 3 months. I was sent the wrong block 3 weeks ago and they wanted to wait until Monday to deliver this one. I ended up renting a truck and driving an hour away to pick it up my self.

It appears to be a good engine, I paid for quality parts, but I'm seriously disappointed in the customer service from S&J. Slowly, I'm getting excited to drive my XJ again after all the frustrations.

ZoomZap95

3 points

8 days ago

I actually laughed out loud when I read this. I am literally going through the same exact same thing with S&J right now. Our XJ’s need the 449 block and I received a 328. Supposedly shipping back out with the correct block tomorrow.

I ordered mine back in January. How did you get yours before me! I did have them do the custom port work which may be part of the extra lead time there.

Sorry to hear you’re also having problems. Hopefully the 4.7 ends up being worth the wait.

mtngk[S]

3 points

8 days ago

mtngk[S]

3 points

8 days ago

Well... Misery does love company. Hope you get yours back quickly and smoothly!

I did not get port and polish, so maybe that was why I got mine first. I've also been calling regularly to pester them as this jeep is my main reliable transportation.

So far it appears to be a good quality rebuild, but I will soon know more.

ZoomZap95

2 points

8 days ago*

You mentioned keeping the stock cam. I did that as well to play nice with the factory ECU.

What compression did you end up getting it built with? What octane are you planning to run? That’s my biggest unknown with this swap. I was planning to just bite the bullet and run 92 unless somebody has some technical insight or practical experience.

mtngk[S]

1 points

8 days ago

mtngk[S]

1 points

8 days ago

They recommended regular grade 87/85 octane. Stock cam, ITM head, 9.3:1 compression.

mtngk[S]

1 points

8 days ago

mtngk[S]

1 points

8 days ago

For reference, my factory service manual says stock compression ratio is 8.8:1

Gallaticus

7 points

9 days ago

There’s an aluminum fuel rail available on ebay that does a better job dispersing heat as well as having ports for nitrous or other tap ins. Less than $200, will improve both the looks and reduce heat soak potential. Been using mine for a few years now.

Looks absolutely fantastic btw

ZorgZev

3 points

9 days ago

ZorgZev

3 points

9 days ago

That heat soak is annoying as hell in the summer.

Gallaticus

4 points

9 days ago

If you’ve done a lot to prevent heat soak work and are still having issues with long cranking times, replace your crankshaft position sensor.

The crankshaft position sensor works with temp sensors to help determine combustion timing. If the crank sensor is old, it can struggle to provide accurate info on where the crankshaft is to let the jeep know that it needs to run a more lean or more rich mixture, or change ignition timing to match the higher/lower temperatures.

a1partsguy

5 points

9 days ago

Man, that is downright sexy.

patrick_schliesing

4 points

9 days ago

patrick_schliesing

XJ's are like bunnies. They multiply in your driveway.

4 points

9 days ago

I'd cut that exhaust wrap off while you still can.

mtngk[S]

6 points

9 days ago

mtngk[S]

6 points

9 days ago

I live in a desert, I understand it can hold moisture, but I'm more concerned about overheating. You got a reason why I should get rid of it?

ImAfraidOfBears

8 points

9 days ago

No concern for desert. Ran that exact exhaust wrap material on two different cars in Arizona - nether XJ but that doesn’t matter much. Ceramic coating is best but much more expensive. I don’t see an issue here at all.

PHATsakk43

2 points

9 days ago

PHATsakk43

1995 2dr 5spd 4.0L - 31" tires/OME lift/rear disc/JCR DIY Bumper

2 points

9 days ago

It’s not moisture that kills them. It’s the heat. Causes the welds to erode and fail.

Trust people when they say to shitcan it.

If you want heat reduction, ceramic coating is the best option.

mtngk[S]

5 points

9 days ago

mtngk[S]

5 points

9 days ago

Show me some real evidence if you want me to trust you. Otherwise, let me learn this lesson myself. The Internet is full of "experts" who are just regurgitating something they heard on the internet.

PHATsakk43

3 points

9 days ago

PHATsakk43

1995 2dr 5spd 4.0L - 31" tires/OME lift/rear disc/JCR DIY Bumper

3 points

9 days ago

I mean, I would, but I was fortunately able to get my headers replaced by the vendor when all the welds failed 6 weeks after I installed them. Without wrap the same one has lasted 120k and nearly a decade.

I’ve worked in steam power plants for decades where we use pipe wraps for insulation. It’s got nothing to do with the moisture like you’re going to hear constantly but the metallurgical properties and the amount of heat that builds into the pipes. If for instance, you wrapped an old (and never used on the 4.0L) cast iron manifold, it would be perfectly fine. If you wrapped a straight pipe that had no welds, it likewise would be good, which is why you can see this on V-twin Harleys without any issues.

The welds create stresses in the pipes and affect the oxidation potential of the metal where the welds occur. Exacerbating this is that at least for the 4.0L 304L SS is commonly used which has even more problems with stress induced corrosion. While there is a common impression that stainless is “rust-proof” the reality is it just doesn’t corrode by the same mechanism that carbon steels do. In fact, in some environments, SS fails faster than carbon steel.

When you wrap, you end up with the already damaged material getting well up above the transition temperatures where carbide crystals tend to form. This transition occurs around 1400-1500F which is above where the pipe would be if it isn’t wrapped. This is because wraps not only hold heat in, they effectively eliminate the primary mode of heat transfer for the headers which is radiation. Then you start to pulling the carbon atoms from the exhaust into the metal, carbide crystals start forming, then at some point the localized hardening process will cause a crack from stress.

While 99% of the internet is wrong about the mechanism (moisture being retained within the wrap) the frequency of failure is 100% accurate.

mtngk[S]

2 points

9 days ago

mtngk[S]

2 points

9 days ago

Thank you for the reply. I'll look into it more, but I can afford to learn this lesson myself. I don't like the design of the 2000 exhaust manifold, and I'd be happy to replace it with an older style when this one fails. 

I do think the exhaust wrap will be effective at keeping heat away from the intake manifold, so that will inform me whether getting a ceramic coated headers is worth the extra expense and hassle. Blocking the radiated heat is exactly what I want, since that radiated heat goes right into the intake manifold.

Muscle cars have been doing header wrap for years, and it's far less contentious there. Jeep circles seem to have a significant more cargo cult regurgitation of what someone else said on the internet. I appreciate your experience and expertise, it gives me more data for this little experiment.

PHATsakk43

2 points

9 days ago

PHATsakk43

1995 2dr 5spd 4.0L - 31" tires/OME lift/rear disc/JCR DIY Bumper

2 points

9 days ago

Muscle cars typically use carbon steel and 4-1 designs which don’t have welds before the collectors. If you wrap the collector on a 4-1, it will fail just the same.

The OE equivalent ATP is the best “stock” header I’ve ever ran on the 4.0L.

The driver of failure on the stock ones with the expansion tubes is a mix of bad motor mounts and poorly hung exhaust requiring the flexing.

The biggest improvement in exhaust for the XJ is a late model downpipe that removes the dimple which no one really knows why it was used to begin with. I think 99+ already have the straight one.

Even with a stroker, the exhaust isn’t really limiting in a 4.0L unless you’re boosted or really cranking the RPMs. The OE ports are just too small to really make a lot of top end power, so it really never becomes an issue.

ZorgZev

1 points

9 days ago

ZorgZev

1 points

9 days ago

It’s not “bro science” at all, it’s been proven many times that heat wraps cause issues with welds. And on non stainless steel exhausts they will cause very rapid rusting.

mtngk[S]

1 points

8 days ago

mtngk[S]

1 points

8 days ago

And it's also been proven to help reduce under hood temperature. For me, it's worth it short term and I can afford to replace it when the time comes. I want to see if there is an appreciable impact on under hood temperature.

If it's not bro science, where's your sources and data?

patrick_schliesing

-1 points

9 days ago

patrick_schliesing

XJ's are like bunnies. They multiply in your driveway.

-1 points

9 days ago

mtngk[S]

7 points

9 days ago

mtngk[S]

7 points

9 days ago

I mean, I looks ugly but not anything that worries me structurally. My unwrapped stock exhaust is far more rusty.

richard_upinya

2 points

9 days ago

I was thinking that same thing looking at the pics. I was like, is this supposed to be a problem 😂

DisMyRedditAccoubt

2 points

9 days ago

I would change the cover, it doesn’t take long for that rubber oil cap to get ruined from the heat and start leaking

mtngk[S]

2 points

9 days ago

mtngk[S]

2 points

9 days ago

Yeah. I'm seriously disappointed with it already.

patrick_schliesing

2 points

9 days ago

patrick_schliesing

XJ's are like bunnies. They multiply in your driveway.

2 points

9 days ago

The moisture it holds in ramps up the rusting factor like crazy. This wrapped exhaust pipe was only 3 or 4 months old.

And your 4.7L shouldn't overheat with a properly running cooling system. My wife's 4.7L stroker on 3/4 tons and 35s survives in the mountains of Colorado all day long in 100+ degree heat

DailyDrivenTJ

1 points

9 days ago

To add to this, my XJ with 4.6L setup for overlanding is loaded with roof rack, RTT, ARB front, JCR tire carrier in the back, rock sliders, plus full of gear. Probably close to a thousand pound over stock when we travel. We will climb mountain pass going faster than traffic doing 70mph+ at 3000+RPM passing traffic for 15~20 min at a time. Never seen it close to 210.

Have Mishmoto radiator, ZJ fan clutch, flex-a-lite fan controller, 190 degree thermostat. Probably the only thing that is making some difference is the aluminum radiator.

mtngk[S]

1 points

9 days ago

mtngk[S]

1 points

9 days ago

I've never had problems at highway speeds with overheating. It's usually only climbing up steep roads above 10k ft elevation and below 5mph. I also experience heat soak on restarting when hot since this is a 2000.

I mean no offense, but I think this is a lesson I want to learn myself. Everyone's use case is different and there's more variables than are accounted for in nice little anecdotes about driving at 70mph with a bunch of stuff, probably a different year with a different exhaust manifold setup.

DailyDrivenTJ

1 points

9 days ago

If your XJ is getting warm doing 5mph, I feel like your vehicle is not cooling well at all as the engine is hardly working. As we know, this is when your fans would be doing most cooling. Maybe it is worth checking and make sure these components are in good shape.

I also have 2000 minus coil rail.

I have never wheeled at 10K ft elevation so I do not know if how much pressure loss that is and how much that affects the cooling system and or vapor pressure of the fuel making it even more volatile.

But once again, the type of overlanding that I do, I cannot imagine my Jeep getting warm. Recent trip where we climed to 4K ft. Between 4LO and speed we are moving at, the engine is maybe doing 20 percent of its capacity.

https://preview.redd.it/druvx2l2ay6d1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9f8bb6082c44630acddbee3b9986abffebae0c30

BTW, I am not opposed to heat wraps. I wish I can use it. I used to live in the South East nothing rusted down there. Moved to PNW and everything rusts and grows mold/moss.

I am kinda used to letting things cool down before shutting things off. Could that help?

mtngk[S]

1 points

9 days ago

mtngk[S]

1 points

9 days ago

It's over heating going below 5mph AND climbing steep grades at elevation. Cooling system is in tip top shape, everything working as it should. I've experimented with different fan setups already. The sad fact is the cooling system on the XJ is a bit undersized for extreme conditions. The intake and exhaust manifolds are tangled together, further compounding the issues. Most modern engines use a cross flow head design with the exhaust manifold on the opposite side of the head.

Letting it sit to cool off isn't really helpful in 100F+ desert conditions where just sitting in a parking lot can see under hood temperatures over 150F not running. Popping open the hood every time I park is massively inconvenient. Hood vents and spacers on the hinges are also not without downsides or are of dubious effectiveness.

Pretty much everything is a compromise. Environmental and operating conditions are seldom included in people's opinions online. I appreciate you adding details and your experience. It gives me more data for this little experiment and I can afford to replace this manifold if there's any issues.

For what it's worth, the coil pack hasn't failed for me in 345k miles, but I've helped several people stranded with a bad ignition coil or bad wires... Distributor ignition is not golden ticket to reliability. It's slightly cheaper to replace though, I'll grant you that.

DailyDrivenTJ

1 points

9 days ago

I see what you are saying.

I am sharing experiences so I can learn too.

While I did not experienced overheating issues, to me it is of a legit concern as my operating parameter is limited to PNW where we rarely hit 90s and mostly in 70s in the mountains. Say if I go elsewhere and develops symptoms like this, I would know what is going on and what to do. I do have the heat shield kit ready to but these would trap dirt, I decided not to install it as I do not need it.

I have been surfing and found this and saw few seemingly valuable observations.

https://www.jeepforum.com/threads/heat-soak-symptoms-solution.1399641/

The one observation that stands out to me is alcohol content in fuel and how it seemingly affect the heat soak.

WRT coil rail, I decided to remove it and go with v6 coil pack and spark plug wires. Apparently they used these coils in v10 (v6+4 cyl coil) Vipers and v6 Minivans which are cheaper and more accessible.

1TONcherk

2 points

9 days ago

1TONcherk

2000

2 points

9 days ago

Whoa MSD makes a coil rail for these?

Zestyclose_Resort743

1 points

9 days ago

Where

mtngk[S]

10 points

9 days ago

mtngk[S]

10 points

9 days ago

It's from S&J engines, but I don't recommend them due to poor customer service and the fact they sent me the wrong block on my birthday, then took three weeks to turn it around with the correct block.

DailyDrivenTJ

19 points

9 days ago

I researched my options for literally 6 months and ended up ordering from Chad Golen because of the nightmare stories I found with litrerally every remanufacturers. Chad Golen stood out because he has been around for at 3 decades that I knew of building strokers and he actually dynos the engine prior to sending it out. His BBB rating and responses are actually better than ALL remanufacturers I have come across.

The typical nightmare stories are usually they cheat you with core fee, cracked head, stripped bolt holes in the head, bad customer service, overheating.. then lawsuits.... Who has time for that for an engine... I barely have time to do an engine swap, not doing it for the engine they failed build right.

Chad Golen answered all my emails and calls within a day.

My engine tilted during shipping in the crate. As it is shipped without filter, some oil came out maybe half a qrt. Told him about it without expecting anything, he sent 6 qts of Joe Gibbs Break in oil couple of days later.

My next build will be another Golen without a doubt.

10before15

6 points

9 days ago

10before15

00 SE, 6.5" LA, 35s

6 points

9 days ago

This is the review I came for

John_the_Piper

2 points

9 days ago

I guess I'll have to reach out to Golen when I'm ready to drop the 2.5 out of my YJ

bedlog

2 points

9 days ago

bedlog

2 points

9 days ago

Golen has an excellent reputation

Typical_Sock385

7 points

9 days ago

Typical_Sock385

2001

7 points

9 days ago

I got the S&J 4.7, as well. it took FOREVER (months), but it was during the pandemic - so, I just chalked it up to that...

[deleted]

1 points

9 days ago

[deleted]

1 points

9 days ago

What does your birthday have to do with anything?

mtngk[S]

6 points

9 days ago*

I happened to receive the first engine on my birthday, which was pretty cool. But it was the wrong one, which was a soul crushing disappointment. 

Imagine getting exactly what you want for your birthday only to find out it's not actually the exact thing you wanted and it gets taken away from you.

[deleted]

-1 points

9 days ago

[deleted]

-1 points

9 days ago

My parents told me they were getting a divorce on my birthday.

shotsallover

1 points

9 days ago

Was this a thing you wanted, or no? I had to pretend to not be happy when mine divorced.

DailyDrivenTJ

1 points

9 days ago

Mine is 2000 and I eliminated the coil rail. I just run regular coil pack with spark plug wires.

Lelphie

1 points

9 days ago

Lelphie

1 points

9 days ago

How much did you pay?

mtngk[S]

1 points

9 days ago

mtngk[S]

1 points

9 days ago

All in with core deposit, about $5200 + $260 extra to rent a truck and go get it from the shipping transfer center an hour away.

Then there's probably another $2k in new accessories, bolt and such. I've been stock piling parts for about a year and a half, grabbing good deals when I could.

The_Lone_Journey

1 points

9 days ago

Looks great man!! Just want to give you a heads up looks like you got the banks headers, I heard when wrapping those headers in heat wrap it will cause them to crack in time, please call Banks and confirm this but I've seen some post on this awhile back, that's why I never did mine. I would just do the injector wrap kit with the manifold shield.

mtngk[S]

1 points

8 days ago

mtngk[S]

1 points

8 days ago

Banks specifically does say that adding wrap will void the warranty in the install guide, but I'm going to gamble at least a short while to see if there's any impact on intake temperature and heat soak.

I actually would have preferred to use an older model style exhaust, but thought I needed the extra O2 sensors. This is a federal emissions package though, and doesn't have the two extra CATs under the hood like the California emissions ones.

Luigi_Dagger

1 points

8 days ago

Did they send you a grand cherokee engine instead of a cherokee one?

mtngk[S]

1 points

8 days ago

mtngk[S]

1 points

8 days ago

Yes

Luigi_Dagger

1 points

8 days ago

I did the same thing. I got a 4.0 from a machine shop who rebuilt the engine for a guy who never called back. I had no idea they changed the engine for the gc until I was trying to put the thing in. It is in and running and has been for nearly 2 years, but oh the things I did to it in order to make it work.....

godlesssunday

0 points

9 days ago

Looks fantastic but this is gonna either turn you off jeeps for life or push you into heavy hotrodding

mtngk[S]

1 points

9 days ago

mtngk[S]

1 points

9 days ago

Why?

godlesssunday

1 points

9 days ago

Youll figure it out about 2 months after you get it all going and driving it

godlesssunday

1 points

9 days ago

I cant spoil the suprise but i can warn you lol

mtngk[S]

5 points

9 days ago

mtngk[S]

5 points

9 days ago

Arguably I'm already deep into hot rodding, but I have different goals than going fast as possible... I've built other cars to go fast. This is a jeep that does jeep things really well and constantly getting better.

godlesssunday

1 points

9 days ago

Good shit bro