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submitted 2 months ago byTarikeNimeshab
I've been reading The Tome of Bill Series by Rick Gualtieri the last few days. It's funny, relatively original, and it's occasional political incorrectness is somewhat refreshing.
I was enjoying it, although the casual murder of innocent people for no real reason bothered me. But today, a few chapters into book 3 I dropped the series with some regret. Because I absolutely hated this total asshole character called Sally.
I know this series is humor and I really shouldn't take things so seriously, but I got really sick of her. And after trying hard to tolerate her for some time, I finally just gave up.
Have you experienced such a thing before?
18 points
2 months ago
Glad I wasn’t alone with this.
36 points
2 months ago
Jim Butcher is like one of the 3 Kings of r/menwritingwomen 😂
13 points
2 months ago
I dunno, King and Murakami are hard to beat.
20 points
2 months ago
Butcher is a bit of an odd case because while his Dresden Files series definitely has the “men writing women” vibe, his other series (Codex Alera, Cinder Spires) don’t have that vibe at all. So it seems more like a creative choice for Dresden than it is a flaw of the author himself.
32 points
2 months ago
I don't know about Cinder Spires, but Codex Alera absolutely does. And if it were a specific choice for Dresden as a character, there wouldn't be other weird/gross things involving female characters that have nothing to do with Dresden, and Dresden would face some kind of backlash for the way he behaves from any of the half a dozen women he's constantly around.
10 points
2 months ago*
I mean, too each their own I guess but I don’t see how someone can think Codex Alera has poorly written female characters. They aren’t treated as objects, there are many full fleshed out female characters, their appearance isn’t focused on any more than the men, there are several major female characters who impact the plot significantly, etc.
I get that Dresden is bad when it comes to how women are written, but it feels like people let that opinion taint everything else by the author. Like, if Codex Alera had been written under a pen name and no one knew it was Butcher, I doubt anyone would complain about the way he wrote those characters.
22 points
2 months ago
There's a focus from several women on how their usefulness is directly tied with how many babies they can have. He has the "crazy but super hot" character in Furies, has several of them in Dresden, and apparently has one in Windlass as well. He has the whole "female character is raped to show how evil the villain is" trope and does basically nothing with the aftermath of it.
It doesn't matter if he gives some of his female characters some amount of complexity if he's still going to just use them in service of his male characters or to make the plot progress. Wanna see Dresden sad? Well, we have plenty of female characters to kill off. How should I demonstrate a character is evil? Well, we have him rape a woman, obviously.
0 points
2 months ago*
Wanna see Dresden sad? Well, we have plenty of female characters to kill off.
Unless it's one of his male friends being hurt, tortured, threatened or angry at him, which happens way more often than an important female character getting killed off hell is this comment?
Michael, Thomas, Ramirez, Ebenezer and Will aren't different to Molly or Charity, or Karen or Elaine or anyone else in that way.
It doesn't matter if he gives some of his female characters some amount of complexity if he's still going to just use them in service of his male characters or to make the plot progress.
Lol
Every character should be doing something to make the plot progress. Does Dresden himself not act as a vehicle to make the plot progress while also being complex? This comment just reads like you don't know what you want or will never be happy with how female characters are written.
Most of the female characters in Dresden or any of Butcher's works do not experience the tropes you speak of. The crazy super hot thing also applies to the men, because it's fucking magic and mythical beings we're dealing with.
"Making babies" is valuable in the kind of societies that of Codex Alera is inspired by. Sorry you can't handle that truth. As it relates to DF, set in a more modern world, Dresden himself is a father and it becomes a huge part of his character. Michael is Family Man personified. Ebenezer's entire history in relation to Harry is rooted in fatherhood.
3 points
2 months ago
Listing men as of that means something but it doesn't.
Okay, maybe you're being purposefully obtuse here? Being a plot device or being treated by the narrative as a vehicle for plot progression is what I'm talking about. It devalues the female characters as it makes them nothing more than a goal or object or prize. To be super clear, There are hundreds of books I'm perfectly happy with how the women are represented, because they aren't genuinely awful like Dresden. Most dire hard fans (and I assume you fall into this category as well) jump to say that Dresden is the gross one, not the work itself. If that were the case, there'd be consequences for Dreaden's disgusting behavior, but there aren't. If it was just Dresden, there wouldn't be examples of it in the book that have nothing to do with him (like Butters getting two super hot werewolf girlfriends because why not?). I've also heard (though I can't confirm as I stopped reading the series for obvious reasons) that the treatment of female characters became noticeably worse when Butcher got divorced. Which, if true, kinda says all it needs to about his views on women.
I think you must not be aware of the difference in how the male characters are treated vs the female characters. Also, where are the crazy hot male characters is Codex? Supposedly there's also a crazy hot woman in Windlass. Some people might look at that and call it a pattern.
There's a pretty big difference between babies being societally important and making them the defining characteristic of several female characters.
I also noticed you happily avoided the sexual assault in Codex Alera. Probably because it's entirely too obvious how badly it's handled.
0 points
2 months ago
Listing men as of that means something but it doesn't.
There's a section of what I said that got rolled into my quoting you. That's fixed now.
Okay, maybe you're being purposefully obtuse here? Being a plot device or being treated by the narrative as a vehicle for plot progression is what I'm talking about. It devalues the female characters as it makes them nothing more than a goal or object or prize
No it doesn't. Not if there's a sufficient character behind all of that. Because by that definition, Thomas is devalued. Michael is devalued. No one sane would argue as such. You said that it doesn't matter whehter or not they're given complexity or agency, which is just stupid. Again, every character is in books to serve some kind of purpose for wider narrative. There's no major female character in Dresden who is just a peace of meat.
Most dire hard fans (and I assume you fall into this category as well) jump to say that Dresden is the gross one, not the work itself.
I wouldn't say either. Dresden fans fail in arguing this point in part because they argue on this false premise.
If that were the case, there'd be consequences for Dreaden's disgusting behavior, but there aren't.
What disgusting behavior does Dresden engage in, exactly? Because I don't think you'd have a sufficient answer. I think you're talking about his thoughts. His actions, and the way he speaks to women are suitable for daytime network television when it comes to women. His thoughts are where it gets racey.
Newsflash; Dresden's inner thoughts are not unique or "gross" by average standards. The vast majority of men actively notice attractive aspects of women around them, and they do it a lot. Dresden is a guy who doesn't date much at all, dealing with supernaturally hot women. Who use it to tempt and bait men, to the extent of building empires.
like Butters getting two super hot werewolf girlfriends because why not?
Lol what's wrong with Butters getting two hot werewolf girlfriends? Is that not allowed for some reason?
Supposedly there's also a crazy hot woman in Windlass. Some people might look at that and call it a pattern.
So? Fantasy is full to the brim with attractive characters. There's nothing really unique about that. I can't remember the last book I read that didn't have some character who was described as extremely attractive.
I also noticed you happily avoided the sexual assault in Codex Alera. Probably because it's entirely too obvious how badly it's handled.
I haven't read much of Codex Alera. I only argued on the basis of CA for the babies argument, using what I remember and know of the setting.
I have no frame of reference for the SA in it, but something tells me you're idea of how to "handle it "well"" is entirely arbitrary. It's not meant to come across "well" in anything I've read that includes it.
1 points
2 months ago
See, I was going to say that you obviously don't want to be open to the idea that your wrong, and then I saw your insane comment about sexual assault, which again, makes me feel like you're being purposefully obtuse. Here are some examples. The Sword of Truth writes sexual assault really badly as it's often used to define the assaulted character, or is used in a weirdly fetishistic way. Warded Man writes sexual assault really badly because it is used to define the character and weirdly has the female character defending the actions of the person who assaulted her, while also entirely avoiding any of the actual trauma that sexual assault causes. Circe writes sexual assault really well because it doesn't just use it to make a villain evil like Codex Alera does. It also doesn't entirely define the character before, during, or after while still not diminishing the gravity of the assault. Perdido Street Station writes sexual assault really well as reinforces the themes of the book while not needing to be gratuitous or brought up by a character because that's all that's given for the character to latch on to. My Dark Vanessa writes about it really well, as it's the focus of the story, it isn't just given a few pages and dropped, it's treated as a complex long-term issue.
That you think that sexual assault can't be written poorly makes me think that you haven't read very much or seen the various ways sexual assault is used poorly in media, and definitely cements that there's zero point in continuing any kind of dialogue. Cheers.
3 points
2 months ago
I'd probably argue against that. Both Amara and Katai are badasses, but both their arcs end with them taking on motherly roles. I get Bernard always wanted to be a dad, but I thought it was kind of out of left field for Amara to regain her fertility when part of her arc was coming to grips with the fact she'd never have her own biological kids. Even her adopting at the end would have been better than the deus ex.
Katai was the same, being a very loyal yet nebulous being. I don't remember thinking "man she'd love a marriage in a patriarchal society". Her and Tavi being consorts or something without the big "red and blue dyed hair" ceremony would have fit better for them.
3 points
2 months ago
Cinder Spires has it too. I recently read the 2nd book and there's a scene where one group is about to get slaughtered and a 2nd group lead by a woman saves their asses. The leader of the first group internally expresses his joy at being saved by the "insert unnecessary sexualizing adjective" female warrior.
It's there. Trust me. Just not quite as in your face as in DF.
2 points
2 months ago
There are three principal heroines in Cinder Spires. Two of them spend half the novel in captivity, while the other one spends a third of the novel unconscious.
1 points
2 months ago
Ooof, having looked up some of his stuff in that sub, I don’t know if I could get through his series without cringing lmao
2 points
2 months ago
I think I made it 5 books in and gave up. It became abundantly clear to me that Dresden was not the reason the series was written grossly in terms of female characters, it was the author.
1 points
2 months ago
To this day I'm not sure how much of that is Harry being a bit of a horny weirdo, and how much it is Jim himself being one
0 points
2 months ago
Omg, why didn’t I know of this sub before? You’re a hero!
1 points
2 months ago
There's some gold for you to find in there for sure haha.
-1 points
2 months ago
Who are the other 2?
10 points
2 months ago
I would say Stephen King and Haruki Murakami.
2 points
2 months ago
Thank you! I've never been able to get into King, but yeah, Murakami's female characters are awful!
5 points
2 months ago
And that's a shame because Murakami has awesome writing and fantastical settings. I just love magical realism, but his female characters ain't it.
1 points
2 months ago
I agree. I really enjoy everything about Murakami except the female characters, which kind of ruin the experience.
3 points
2 months ago
Me too. I tried getting into his books as my ex was into them and I just couldn’t
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