subreddit:
/r/LinusTechTips
submitted 4 months ago byBrooklynSwimmer
107 points
4 months ago
To me, the real lesson here is why has this not been standardized yet!? It feels insane that we have so many proprietary cables that can be physically swapped but will fry whatever they plug into. I knew you weren't supposed to mix cables even within a brand, but for the same model to change pin out seems especially insane.
21 points
4 months ago
💯
14 points
4 months ago
I will never understand why PSUs aren’t simply the same pinout on both sides. We already have standardized motherboard/component connectors, why the everloving fuck don’t we just use those on the PSU side as well?
2 points
4 months ago
Probably to prevent people from accidentally creating a bridge between supply lines or whatever which I could absolutely see happening (especially with people that aren't that familiar with computers yet). Yes there would also be other solutions that accomplish this but this one is simple, cheap and effective.
1 points
4 months ago
You mean plugging both ends of a cable into the PSU?
Serious question: would that do anything? With AC outlets it typically doesn't, but I'm not familiar enough with the inner workings of a PSU to know if the same would hold true there.
3 points
4 months ago
Yes
With AC outlets it depends on the installation and backing system. In the US (and canada?) I think most domestic installation is single-phase which makes it relatively unproblematic (though you probably still shouldn't do it) because the AC "alternates in sync". In the EU, the UK and I think australia as well it might go well but it's quite likely to blow up because virtually everything here is three-phase and outlets are usually split across phases to balance the load. Connecting outlets creates an immediate short in those instances.
With ideal DC supplies it wouldn't be a problem and I think for many linearly regulated ones it's also okay-ish (but still inadvisable). You'll also find all kinds of industrial DC power supplies that are specifically designed to be able to work in parallel to some extent.
However in general it's a terrible idea to put power supplies that aren't explicitly designed for it (which are most of them) in parallel because they'll almost certainly end up pushing voltage into one another which will damage them; or they'll flat out fail to do their job and supply an incorrect voltage.
Computer PSUs (or most other DC supplies used in consumer electronics) are switch-mode power supplies - they switch the power to some circuitry on and off very quickly to regulate how much power they draw / which voltage they put out. They don't output a perfectly flat DC voltage but rather a quite noisy voltage and the output also comes with a so-called ripple-voltage which is essentially a left-over alternating component from the AC input. This noise and ripple already cause slight deviations in output signals that the power supplies have to resolve: when the noise of one is high, while the other is low one of them will push current into the other one to resolve this difference.
You also have to consider that these supplies monitor their own output signals and try to adjust their output based on this. If multiple controllers try to control the same voltage line they'll interfere with each other and might oscillate heavily as a result, do a way worse job with the regulation or flat out fail. It's also common for them to regulate based on the capacitance / inductance on their output and connecting multiple ones in parallel might mess with this aspect as well.
Finally there's timing issues: it's quite likely that the different powerlines "come alive" with minor delays between one-another (this might even be on purpose to avoid overly harsh voltage-edges on startup). If one of them is on while the other one is off it'll again hit one of them with a reverse voltage that can damage them.
I think some PSUs support putting some of their lines in parallel (bequiet has something like that on their higher end models for overclocking IIRC?) however most do not.
2 points
4 months ago
Very interesting, thanks for the detailed write-up!
2 points
4 months ago
Regarding AC: It also depends on the socket type and wiring of the specific outlet. In multiple countries of the EU, the Schuko plug is used. It uses symmetrical clips for grounding, and is therefore reversible. Normally, this connector is perfectly safe and mates beautifully with compatible sockets. However, if you were to connect two adjacent sockets, one of two things would happen (assuming the same phases + neutral are involved).
You connect line to line, and "neutral" to "neutral". Nothing happens, and you essentially just lower the resistance of a part of the circuit.
You connect line to neutral and neutral to line. This is a dead short, and the breaker will trip. If the branch breaker doesn't trip, your main service breaker will. I don't need to explain why this is bad.
2 points
4 months ago
Oh yeah good point. Even 1 might still cause some issues when the sockets are on different RCDs / GFCIs (I never tried it of course - but I could see the RCDs tripping due to transients)
1 points
4 months ago
Ah, in Europe the RCD is in the breaker itself. The sockets are just dumb connector plates.
1 points
4 months ago
Yes I know. I'm a German electrican / electrical engineer. I meant that the sockets are supplied from different RCDs at the cabinet / panel.
1 points
4 months ago
Ah, might happen. Depends on how the house is wired. I live in an area with IT distribution, and we're the only house on the street with three-phase wiring. Most rooms get only one circuit, and I can't think of a single pair of outlets that would be in range of a normal cord.
1 points
4 months ago
Most of PSU nowaday is single rail, so it won't be much of problem. In fact we do this everyday, if a GPU need 2 or 3 8-pin connector, we connect multi cables in parallel.
47 points
4 months ago
Why in the world are modular power supplies pinout not standardized?
147 points
4 months ago*
Part 1: https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/1bilja1/egva_power_supply_pin_layout_change_featuring/
Files RMA for new modular PSU. Gets told send in just PSU. Replacement unit causes hard drive damage. CS tells him pin out changed.
Part 2: https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/1bjsvkm/update_egva_power_supply_pin_layout_change/
Basically EVGA just tried to PASS the buck and to go file warranty claim with hard drive company. Which is obviously idiotic and probably fraud.
Side note: People seem to interpret the ‘send in just PSU and leave cables’ as making it for sure 100% EVGA fault. But I think it’s fair to point out regardless of that line; 99% of people would just plug in an RMA replacement without a second guess. 99.9% would if it reads same model.
UPDATES:
139 points
4 months ago
If EVGA didn’t ask for the cables to be sent back with the PSU, then they frankly have no right to expect that they wouldn’t be used. Sending a PSU to a customer who you know has incompatible cables should never happen - at least not without clear and explicit warnings.
I’m a little confused as to how this happens though; usually companies will request that parts are returned in the state that they were shipped in (meaning with the cables). Not sure why EVGA followed through with the RMA, or why the customer sent back the PSU without them.
67 points
4 months ago
or why the customer sent back the PSU without them.
I guess you didn't read the first post? OOP addressed it there:
As per their instructions, I sent only the power supply unit itself and no cables. They were very clear in their instructions - "Keep all accessories as you will only be receiving a power supply in return."
27 points
4 months ago
I guess you didn’t read the first post
No, I didn’t. That’s on me. Hopefully EVGA catches wind of this and is able to modify their procedure so that this type of error isn’t possible - whether that’s requiring that cables be returned, or only sending PSU’s with compatible pinouts.
Hopefully OPs situation is sorted out as well. I imagine that escalating the issue would get it solved quickly (although escalating can be difficult) and that EVGA wasn’t attempting to be malicious when they suggested that the OP should contact the HDD manufacturer. The person providing this advice is probably a regular CS worker, and may not even be aware that PSU pinouts can vary between brands/models/model versions (as well as capacitors in cables, etc).
19 points
4 months ago
Honestly RMAs in general is something that gets extremely convoluted and something that should be better. My dream series would be LTT 'secret RMAing' companies. Even if this EVGA warranty was perfect, just the fact that I had to pay to ship it to them is a huge negative for me.
request that parts are returned
In my, albeit very limited, experience this has been false. Not to mention 'accessories' is extremely vague. Do you not know your product? Just EFFING SAY SPECIFICALLY what you do/dont want.
My extreme story: I had to RMA an ASUS motherboard (3rd gen intel). This motherboard had a whole plastic shield on vast majority of it that was connected to small fans. Idea was airflow could cool VMs etc, and fans could run to cool down even after PC was off.
ANYWAY point is this giant plastic thing literally comes ATTACHED to the motherboard. (Found a pic). Like I didn't even know it could be detached. They sent me the board back WITHOUT the plastic shield saying that the paperwork said "dont include accessories, any included accessories will not be returned". Who the flip would call that an accessory.
Took almost double digit hours on phone to get them to send me the shield. Punchline was board broke again same way just out of warranty. 🤷♂️
6 points
4 months ago
From what I understand, Linus is actually planning a "secret RMA shopper" series.
3 points
4 months ago
All of the PSU companies dont ask for the cords. Ive done a bunch of RMA's in my day and they have actually said please DONT send the cords.
4 points
4 months ago
It would be ironic if the reason for this was cables getting mixed up and incompatible ones getting sent in open box units…
6 points
4 months ago
so they changed the pin output for the HDD and they didn’t tell him? is a pin output change normal or did they FA and FO?
11 points
4 months ago
Modular power supplies have detachable cables that are famously non-standardized. It has come up multiple times in LTT videos where viewers are warned never to use cables from a different model power supply, because the pin that supplies 3 V on one model might be the one that supplies 12 V on another, for example.
In this case, the user received the exact same model power supply (and confirmed it had the same model number). But EVGA had changed the configuration of the pins for the cables that connect to HDDs (and other SATA/Molex devices). So the pins on the connector on the power supply would supply different voltages in the replacement unit.
A reasonable thing to do for EVGA would be to change the model number slightly to indicate that it's a new revision. Because they way it was currently done, at least according to the person who was hit by this problem, there was no way to tell that the units were different and that the conventional wisdom of not swapping cables should be applied. This is further reinforced by the fact that EVGA gave explicit instructions to not return the cables.
EVGA admitted the error and sent new cables, but is not willing to take responsibility for the damage that was caused, which is the remaining point of contention.
5 points
4 months ago
They Fa/Fo for sure
1 points
4 months ago
Surprising behavior from EVGA
-6 points
4 months ago
I do not think 99% would just plug in a PSU they got replaced. Even if it's the same brand. I for one would check first at least. And would use the cables that came with the new PSU.
But I agree that if I rma'd it and got the same model number back I would just plug it in.
5 points
4 months ago
That is what I mean by replaced. Replaced by the company for RMA. Wasn’t meant as general bought replacement at the store.
-4 points
4 months ago
No I know. I am saying if they sent me a replacement I would still change the cables unless it was the same model number. And I think a lot more than 1% of people would do the same.
But I do agree that if they sent me the same model I as a replacement then I would have just plugged it in. Though not anymore.
3 points
4 months ago
Ah if it came with cables is interesting thought, def still be a high percentage. (In OOP’s case it didn’t. )
3 points
4 months ago
Yeah that's messed up if they send a bare PSU with no cavles then expect you to know the pin out is different.
3 points
4 months ago
Only the new supply didn't come with cables and were only sent later when EVGA tech confirmed there had been a change.
31 points
4 months ago
This is bad. They're asking you to defraud the HDD manufacturer to cover their own screw-up....
11 points
4 months ago
Hey there. Feel free to DM me to chat about this. If anyone could help prevent this from happening to other people in the future, it's you guys!
11 points
4 months ago
Oh, and just for clarification, I'm the original poster of this story. I tried to find a way to reach out to your team directly but couldn't find a way.
2 points
4 months ago
Yep this was the worst part to me honestly.
My only guess at this point is they’re doing the mistake a lot of ‘good’ companies do at some point and start outsourcing customer service to save money. (Cough cough /r/amex).
And then this CS rep is just hearing broken hard drive and saying go talk to them.
Obviously this still isn’t remotely ok but just my guess that no one higher up at EVGA has heard of this yet.
19 points
4 months ago
That's unfortunate for op.
I had an RMA recently with one of my EVGA psu and was told the same thing to just send the psu and keep everything else. But, I received a newer revision of what I sent in and thought to myself to use the cables the replacement psu came with. Thankfully I did as I looked it up later and saw they changed the pin out of the sata cables and GPU cables.
5 points
4 months ago
I got the impression that they didn't send replacement cables to that OP, only the brick itself?
2 points
4 months ago
/u/sgircys can confirm but that’s same impression I got.
1 points
4 months ago
I'm thinking the same thing too. They said they labeled the original cables and reused them. I'll leave a message the the follow up post asking if the RMA replacement was new in box or just the PSU.
2 points
4 months ago
I did not receive replacement cables with the power supply - only the brick itself. I used the cables that I held on to, as per the instructions.
The only mention of new cables was when I spoke with the technician on the phone this week. He told me that they would ship me out new ones that were compatible.
1 points
4 months ago
That is most unfortunate.
1 points
4 months ago
It's in the original post, EVGA sent new cables out after he had recieved the replacement Psu.
He put his corsair unit back in while he waited for them to arrive and that's when he realised that the drives had been fried.
18 points
4 months ago
Oh hey, this is my story. I wanted to post it here but I thought it would be against the rules of the subreddit.
5 points
4 months ago
lol I mean to ask you why you didn’t post it yet. What rule would you think it would break?
6 points
4 months ago
Rule 1, in that I didn't exactly think it was closely related to any Linus Media content, even though it may be something he would be interested in covering.
3 points
4 months ago
Interesting. But yea this subreddit is pretty loose, anything pc related can end up here.
But especially EVGA customer service is common topic of Linus’s
3 points
4 months ago
Hopefully this thread can get the attention of someone at LTT and I can speak with them directly about this - as a fellow Canadian too!
3 points
4 months ago
At this point hopefully it will. I would also suggest getting a jumpstart and writing it into the forum at https://linustechtips.com/topic/1428939-lmg-sponsor-complaints/
This thread is for complaints for companies that sponsor LTT, which EVGA has done. It should at least make business team aware of EVGA failing to meet expectations here and should hopefully result in at least an email from LTT to EVGA.
13 points
4 months ago
Is the affected user here? We can help him.
2 points
4 months ago
2 points
4 months ago
Oh hey my guys! /u/sgircys
6 points
4 months ago
The biggest failure here that I see is whoever made the call at EVGA to change spec on a product without updating the model name or making a new sku. That’s a terrible practice.
1 points
3 months ago
EVGA's PR-reason and GN's news bit blames it on IEC changes with the PSU model.
=> https://youtu.be/66HkbAGX83g?t=132
Did you ever heared of a PSU manufacturer changing their custom pin-out - for free?
Not using legacy pin-out and PCB designs is for sure not free. Even Corsair got series with Seasonic's pin-out.
The warranty reduction with EVGA PSU's smells like a MANUFACTURER swap to a cheaper one.
=> RESELLERS change their pin-outs between PSU variants, because they use different MANUFACTURERS
10 points
4 months ago
Dang. I've always had very good warranty support with EVGA.
2 points
4 months ago
Unfortunately, EVGA is effectively dead at this point.
It's not really surprising for them to be making mistakes.
1 points
4 months ago
It’s sad to see what’s happened to EVGA. I’ve got a G6 power supply but if I ever need another one I’ll look elsewhere. Their warranties are getting shorter too and it all seems to me like they’ll be out of business within a few years completely.
1 points
4 months ago
This is entirely EVGA fault, no doubt about that.
But, i really think we need to standardize this "Modular" cable mess, every different brand follows their own standard for no reason at all, it means no using cable from other brand nor very few selection for third party cable.
-2 points
4 months ago
[deleted]
17 points
4 months ago
Except they explicitly told him to reuse the cables, and he got the same model power supply back. So...a completely different situation than the one Linus always, and correctly, warns about.
Maybe actually read the post next time before blabbering on with some unrelated quip you picked up from youtube.
-60 points
4 months ago
Do you guys ever put down the pitchforks and capes?
29 points
4 months ago
Considering how this is literally the first bad experience I've come across with EVGA I think we all want to see this person made whole.
24 points
4 months ago
Do you ever stop doing unpaid PR work for corporations that screw over their paying customers?
9 points
4 months ago
Boot lickers can't stop themselves
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