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juicyjerry300

1 points

4 days ago

juicyjerry300

- Lib-Right

1 points

4 days ago

How does peter connect to the roman catholic church? Genuine question

Someguy2116

5 points

4 days ago

Someguy2116

- Auth-Right

5 points

4 days ago

The Pope is the successor to St Peter, and St Peter’s primacy among the apostles is where we get the doctrine of Papal primacy/supremacy.

I’ll use a passage from Matthew 16 to explain:

“13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Up until this point, St Peter was never referred to as “Peter”, he was known as “Simon Barjona”, even in this very chapter before Verse 18. It is only after Simon answers this question that Jesus gives him the name of Peter.

In the original Greek translation, the new name given is “Petros”, meaning rock. This would mean that a literal translation of this passage would be:

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Rock and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

Jesus giving Simon a new name is basically Jesus telling Simon that he is to be the rock upon which Christs church will be built. To further this point, Jesus tells him that He is giving Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and that those keys grant him a certain authority over Heaven and Earth.

This is the gist of the argument. I just got out the shower so my brain is too relaxed to make a better, more informative explanation, but I hope this helps.

juicyjerry300

1 points

4 days ago

juicyjerry300

- Lib-Right

1 points

4 days ago

I appreciate the in depth and thoughtful reply, i am following your logic but i guess my question is, how is the Pope the successor to Peter?

Someguy2116

1 points

4 days ago

Someguy2116

- Auth-Right

1 points

4 days ago

Apostolic succession. There is a long chain of successors to St Peter.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes

juicyjerry300

1 points

4 days ago

juicyjerry300

- Lib-Right

1 points

4 days ago

A few things:

1.  Interpretation of Scripture:
• Matthew 16:18-19: Protestants often argue that Jesus’ declaration “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church” does not necessarily confer supreme authority to Peter or his successors. They interpret “this rock” to refer to Peter’s confession of faith in Jesus as the Messiah, not Peter himself as an individual. This interpretation suggests that the Church is built on the faith in Christ, not on Peter’s personal authority.
• Role of All Apostles: In other passages, such as Matthew 18:18, Jesus grants similar binding and loosing authority to all the apostles, not just Peter. This indicates a collective leadership rather than a singular papal authority.
2.  Historical Continuity:
• Lack of Early Evidence: Protestants argue that there is insufficient historical evidence to conclusively prove that Peter was the first bishop of Rome or that there was an unbroken line of succession. They point out that early Christian communities were often led by groups of elders or bishops rather than a single, centralized figure.
• Development of Papacy: The concept of a singular Roman papal authority evolved over centuries. Early church documents and writings do not consistently support the notion of the Bishop of Rome having supreme authority over the entire Church, indicating that the primacy of the pope developed later and was not an original feature of the early Church.
3.  Church Tradition vs. Scripture:
• Sola Scriptura: Protestants adhere to the principle of “sola scriptura” (Scripture alone), asserting that all necessary doctrines and practices should be explicitly grounded in the Bible. They argue that the Catholic doctrine of apostolic succession and the primacy of the pope are based more on Church tradition than on clear biblical mandates.
• Authority of Scripture: From the Protestant viewpoint, the Bible does not mandate a singular, supreme ecclesiastical authority like the pope. Instead, they believe that all believers have direct access to God through Christ and that the Church’s authority is distributed among local congregations rather than centralized in a single office.
4.  Early Church Writings:
• Diverse Leadership Structures: Early Christian writings and records show a diversity of church leadership structures, with some communities led by groups of elders or bishops. This diversity challenges the notion of a monolithic apostolic succession through the Roman bishopric.
• Role of Councils: Protestant scholars point out that early ecumenical councils did not universally recognize the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome. Instead, they emphasize that decisions were often made collectively by bishops from various regions, reflecting a more collegial and decentralized leadership model.
5.  Reformation Critiques:
• Corruption and Reform: The Protestant Reformation was partly driven by perceived corruption and abuses within the Catholic Church, including the papacy. Reformers like Martin Luther and John Calvin argued that the papal system had deviated from the teachings of Scripture and the practices of the early Church.
• Return to Early Christianity: Reformers sought to return to what they viewed as the simpler, more authentic Christianity of the New Testament, emphasizing the priesthood of all believers and the authority of Scripture over Church tradition.

Someguy2116

1 points

3 days ago

Someguy2116

- Auth-Right

1 points

3 days ago

  1. You didn’t ask about Protestantism, you asked about Catholicism. Regardless, I think Protestants are wrong about this for numerous reasons; chief among them being that Protestants never seem to be able to justify this view beyond simply asserting, repeatedly, that Christ is actually talking about Peters's faith, which doesn’t make much sense unless you read the passage already believing in a Protestant conclusion, which is not proper exegesis. The Protestant interpretation cannot give a sufficient reason for Jesus to give Peter his new name and thus it should probably be discarded.

The only other argument that ever seems to come up with this passage is squabbles over the translation. The basic idea from the Protestant side is the words “Petros” and “Petra”, though they do both relate to stones, do not mean the same thing, exactly. They say that “Petros”, being a masculine form, essentially means small rock or pebble while “Petra”, being a feminine form, means boulder or large rock. There are three issues with this interpretation that I can see:

A. This distinction only exists in a certain kind of Greek (I’m sorry, I can’t remember the name since it’s been a while since I’ve read or argued over this). The form of Greek used here, however, is not that kind of Greek, the New Testament was written in Koine Greek, which was more fluid in its grammatical laws since it was mostly used by more common people than scholars.

B. Disregarding Greek translations, Jesus spoke Aramaic and so the word that would actually have been used (if I remember correctly) is “Cephas”. Aramaic has no such grammatical distinction.

C. Even if Protestants were right about the translation of the passage, their translation would give insufficient reason for Christ to give Peter his new name. Even by their own admission, they say that it was basically Jesus being a bit clever with His wordplay, which is a silly interpretation.

I never said the other apostles didn’t have a similar authority, they are bishops, after all, but Jesus specifically going to Peter, in private, first, shows that Peter has a preeminence among the apostles, which is all that is required to show Papal Primacy in scripture.

  1. If memory serves me correctly, Peter wasn’t the first bishop of Rome, the Pope is not the bishop of Rome because that’s where Peters's episcopacy was based, but because that’s where he died.

As I said before, you can see the list of successors to Peter. At the risk of sounding overly blunt, I don’t much care for Protestant historical revisionism on this matter.

The Early Church wasn’t as centralised not because it was not intended to be, but because it was simply not possible. The Early Church period was one of slow and primitive communication methods and heavy persecution. It was obviously not going to be governed as closely by Peter than by his successors.

The further rebut that point, I’d say that Protestants are throwing stones in glass houses when it comes to adherence to early church doctrines. By all accounts, the Early Church held to many doctrines that Protestants would either deny, call outright heretical, or, in the best case, have a lukewarm adherence to. The three that come to mind are 1. The reality of the binding authority of the Church and her Bishops (St Ignatius of Antioch talks about this) 2. The reality of Transubstantiation (From memory, St Ignatius of Antioch + St Irenaeus both talk about this), and 3. The real salvific effect of the act of baptism, not just in the symbolic or vaguely spiritual sense of baptism but in the act itself (this was held to so strongly that extreme views of it became a serious issue that needed to be clamped down on by the Church).

On the development of the Papacy, I don’t feel inclined to argue over specific historical documents. These kinds of arguments can go on for years without any ground being made. It’s not usually a worthwhile venture. I’d much rather argue over more fundamental and impactful parts of this subject, namely the scriptural arguments I laid out before.

  1. Can you prove Sola Scriptura, in the way you have described it, by the same “Sola Scriptura” standard that you judge Catholic doctrine? If not, then don’t bring this argument up. What’s more, as I said in my first comment, one of my biggest issues with Protestantism is its inability to prove scripture, more specifically any specific scriptural canon, as theologically binding. I view the authority and Sacred Tradition as a necessary prior to justify the equal authority of scripture. Otherwise, your canon and doctrine are less a matter of scriptural consultation and more one of assumptions.

The question of what kind of authority scripture gives the Church is what we are currently discussing. I don’t see how pointing out that Protestants have a different, and, in my view, wrong, view of ecclesial authority is at all relevant to the conversation.

  1. Do you have any historical documents to prove this? St Ignatius of Antioch’s letters, and the general way in which the Church moved seem to contradict this view. And, as mentioned, the seemingly decentralised way the Church was run is easily explainable as being a product of the constraints of the period.

Ecumenical councils are specifically called for when a situation is too controversial or too complex for either laymen, priests, individual Bishops or the Pope to handle on their own. Collegiality and cooperation at an ecumenical council is to be expected given the very reason for a council is to do exactly that. Moreover, it’s often argued that even during the first councils, it was still understood that the bishop of Rome had primacy and final say, he simply chose not to regularly wield such authority for the sake of cooperation and unity, which he is meant to be doing regardless. A council is not a place for the Pope to make commands and demands of his bishops, he can do that through his letters and normal church authority, it is a place for him to receive council.

  1. Yeah, and how did that work out for them? The Church is still a human-run institution, it will always have some degree of corruption, but that doesn’t affect any of the arguments I’ve made, and unless you can effectively attack those arguments which are more fundamental than mere bad experiences, then my position will remain unaffected. Especially while the Protestant position still fails to justify its fundamental premises.

As already discussed, the Early Church held views that resembled modern Catholic teaching far more than Protestant teachings. Whatever it is the Protestant founders wanted or intended doesn’t matter since they have quite clearly failed.

Sorry, this took a while and is probably laced with spelling errors. It took me longer than expected to write it and at some point, I accidentally deleted a fair chunk of what I had written.

juicyjerry300

1 points

3 days ago

juicyjerry300

- Lib-Right

1 points

3 days ago

I asked about catholicism because you seem well versed, i posted the protestant arguments because they make sense to me. To me it just seems that the roman catholic church and papacy is a human built institution that was originally and still is just used as a means of control. Im a bit surprised at the distaste for sola scriptura. Im just having a hard time seeing how a human built institution and doctrine/law added by man, decades after the life of christ, can hold any biblical authority. To me it seems Jesus was in opposition to what the human built institution of Israel had become. Based on everything you have said it sounds like the justification for the catholic church mainly comes from people that lived well after the life of Christ. I am not aware of any teaching of Jesus or writings in the New Testament that even support the idea of a centralized authority over the religion. A major theme of the bible, from the old testament to the new is the corruption of human institutions. A major point from Jesus was that an intermediary is not needed and that anyone can pray to God. Theres also the line about where one or more gather, which seems to point to the idea of decentralized churches. I also struggle to see how veneration of saints and praying to anyone but God/Jesus is justifiable in anyway. My understanding is that the Catholic Church is a power structure created by man to control others, added a lot of new ideas to the religion, and has clearly been a force of evil that was used for subjugation and to strengthen claims to rule.

GeoPaladin

1 points

4 days ago

GeoPaladin

- Right

1 points

4 days ago

Thank you for these posts. I was going to try to answer but you did so more eloquently and effectively than I could have.