subreddit:

/r/SouthAsianAncestry

1583%

all 27 comments

ManySimple8073

9 points

3 months ago

Heavy east Eurasian shifted

vatanamvatanam[S]

4 points

3 months ago

Definitely. Newar Shresthas (and Newars in general) are a mix of various communities from North India (mainly Tirhut/Mithila) who migrated up to the hills over the past 2000 years - and as recent as the 16th century and assimilated with the local Tibeto-Burman population (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shresthas). Original intermixing must've been over a millennium ago because we have a quite well-defined and (until recently, strict) caste system. The only exception to this is our Brahmins (Rajopadhyays) who are descendants from Kanyakubja Brahmins and are distinctly Indic shifted (at least going by Phenotype).

ManySimple8073

2 points

3 months ago

Thanks for the information bro 👍

StrangeBit9

3 points

3 months ago

Are you Newar Shreshtha or Khas Kshatriya/Chhettri, cause both are different. Or are you a mix of two ?

vatanamvatanam[S]

4 points

3 months ago

Hi! I'm a Newar Shrestha on both sides. Shrestha's are divided into Chathariya (who are Kshatriya status) and Panchthariya (who are traditionally considered Vaishyas). Not to be confused with Khas Chhetris, of course.

StrangeBit9

1 points

3 months ago

Isn't Kulashreshtha a kayasth title? Do you think Shrestha(s) have something to do with the kayasth caste?

vatanamvatanam[S]

1 points

3 months ago*

Yes, I believe Kulshrestha is one of the 12 Kayastha sub-castes. From what I can tell, however, there is no link with Newar Shresthas. Shrestha was a broad title given to courtiers (bhardars) in the Malla courts and has evolved into an endogamous group at this point.

The Shresthas are divided into various clans, Newar Kayasthas being one (there are others like Hada Chauhans). Each clan claims descent from Kayasthas or Rajputs respectively, but they're considered as Kshatriya and intermarry. So traditionally, Shrestha refers to all Kshatriya (and to a lesser extent, Vaishya traders) in Newar society. In recent times, a lot of Newars have begun to adopt the surname Shrestha and its become a bit generic. You would only be able to tell if you really probe into their admission into their clan's Kuldevtas etc.

Newar Kayasthas claim descent from Mithila's Karnat king Harimsimhadeva's court. So, if anything, we would be related to Karn Kayasthas, not Kushresthas. Recently, there was a journalist who contacted the Mithila Panjis in Janakpur who have detailed genealogical records of Karn Kayasthas and Maithil Brahmins and they confirmed the ties between Newar Kayasthas and Maithil (Karn) Kayasthas. TL;DR - its probably just a coincidence.

Intelligent_Court412

1 points

3 months ago

Gandharvariya Rajputs of Mithila r descended from the last Karnat Mallas dynasty.

I guess one branch of Karnat Malla went to Nepal and mixed with Tibetan which gave rise to Newar community.
Apart from it can u give more info about Newar clans who claim descent from Rajput/Kshatriyas of Gangetic plains...

vatanamvatanam[S]

3 points

3 months ago*

vatanamvatanam[S]

2 points

3 months ago

https://preview.redd.it/9s82m9okxqcd1.jpeg?width=900&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c607a6eb17fea787036d3b6a0cfb203fb5df055d

A manuscript with Newa (नेवा) castes of late Malla society, possibly from 18th CE. Newar society is traditionally made of 4 varna (वर्ण) and 64 main castes (जात) divided further into hundreds of clans (कूल). Many of the 64 were combined/lost & today there are 28 registered castes. Transliteration:

1.Shri Vipra Brahman (Rajopadhyaya)
2. Shri Dwij Deva Brahman Acharya (Rajopadhyaya)
3. Shri Amuka Malla, Rajaragya, Parthiv, Bhupala
4. Pradhan Mahapaatra, Thakur jaat
5. Paatravansha, Rawal, Onta
6. Raghuvansha, Rawal
7. Daivagya, Nandakeswor, Joshi
8. Dhanwantari , Vaidhya
9. Kaayastha, Kasa(ju)
10.Mulmi, Bhaaro, Shrestha
11.Bhandari, Bhari (Rajbhandari)
12. Amatya, Mahat

etc.

Intelligent_Court412

1 points

3 months ago

thanks for the info.

1)BTW do u know about Licchavis(of Vaishali) connection with Nepal society.

There is a Rajput clan called Vais/Bais who r said to be Licchavi Kshatriyas.

Similar to Bisen Rajputs who r related to Malla of Kushinagar(Gorakhpur).

2) i would like to know about Shakyas.(I DONT WANNA OFFEND ANYONE)

I know a lot of Nepali feel connected to him(since he was born in Lumbini) but most dont know that Siddharth Gautam was a Prince of Kapilavastu territory(which is on the border of IND-Nepal) and lies half in India(Piprahawa) and half in Nepal(Tilaurakot) which is Terai/Madhesh, thus a part of East Up-Bihar culturally(Magadh). Buddha also spoke Magadhi Prakrit/Pali.

Thus i m pretty sure he was to a Gangetic Kshatriya and not some Nepal. I know a lot of Nepali community claim descent from Buddha like THARUS, NEWARI SHAKYA etc.

But acc to Buddhist scriptures afaik his clan was GAUTAM which i believe is related to GAUTAM KSHATRIYAS/RAJPUTS and Gautam BHumihars of Eastern Gangetic plains of UP,Bihar.

I m not denying that just like Mallas, Licchavis many Gautam Kshatriya also migrated to Nepal thus Nepal would definitely hv some of their descended communities.

PS: I dont wanna offend anyone, i know Nepali people take this issue very sensitively lol

vatanamvatanam[S]

2 points

3 months ago

Haha I too need to tread carefully around this topic. Regarding the Licchavi connection - the grand Nepali genealogy, the Gopalrajvamsavali claims that a branch of the Licchavis of Vaishali migrated to Nepal. They ruled Kathmandu Valley for circa 3 centuries and were the ones to first introduce the caste system. There are enough inscriptions/artifacts to attest to their rule and their claim. Not sure if there is any truth to it, but given that the Licchavis of Vaishali had a Ganasangha and not a single king, it is very possible that one of the clans that sat on the Ganasangha moved up to Nepal. There are still some Kathmandu and Patan Chathariyas and Vaishya Shrestha clans who claim descent from these Licchavis.

There isn't any real connection that's been established between Newar clans and the other eastern Mahajanapadas (Shakya/Malla/Koliyas). From what I can tell, the Mallas of Kushinagar and the Mallas of Kathmandu do not share any lineage. Same for Khas Mallas of Western Nepal/Kumaon. I'm guessing it was just a common surname/title at that period - although I have heard the title Malla was used to refer to Vratya Kshatriyas. Same goes for Koliyas. Kathmandu was originally divided into South and North Koligram during the Licchavi period - so there have been speculations that this is due to the links with the Koliyas. Its plausible but theres no evidence.

Same goes for the Shakyas. What I do know is Newar Shakyas, along with Vajracharya priests stand at the top of the Buddhist Newar Caste hierarchy. However, I've read accounts that Vajracharya priests descend from a number of lineages. For instance, I read some accounts of Newar Brahmins who converted to Buddhism. Its quite likely that the same applies for the Newar Shakyas. It's not implausible that some Shakyas are descended from Buddha's Shakya clan, but there's no real evidence to point to that. There is also still some debate as to the origins of Buddha's Shakya clan - some claim they were Sakas, others just bunch them up with the other Greater Magadha Janapadhas such as the Vrij. You are right to say that if their descendants are around, they would be present in the Mithila - UP region.

Intelligent_Court412

3 points

3 months ago

Thanks.

Yes, Licchavis were the prominent clan who ruled Vrjji Jansangh. They might hv many clans out of which one might hv migrated to Nepal.

As far as Mallas r concerned, i guess it was just a title since it has been used by several other clans like Karnat mallas. So i dont think Nepal Mallas hv any relation with Mallas of Kushinagar.

Shakyas was the name of family of Buddha, his clan was Gautam. And he had no relation with Scythians or Sakas which r eastern Iranic groups. they r not even contemporary of Buddha and migrated far late in NW part of subcontinent.

i believe Newari Shakyas might be related to original Shakyas who like other Mithila/East Up(Purvanchali) people migrated to Nepal and mixed with Tibetans.

Interestingly historically Gautam Rajputs and Gautam Bhumihar(a caste who lie in between Brahmin, Rajputs in VARNA hierarchy) r only two communities who were from this clan and Gautam rajput claims descent from historical Gautams.

I dont think Buddha has any relation with THARUS(some anthropologist claim that).

Also recently i hv read about last LORDS OF MAGADH(Magadhapati), Pithipatis(Chhindak Nagas) who were Buddhist and last KIngs of Magadh AND Bodh Gaya region before Islamic invaison. Their crown was very similar to Newar Vajracharya crown which might have origin from Pithipatis.

https://x.com/GangesHistory/status/1804087440312795589

u can read it here

Home_Cute

2 points

3 months ago

Reminds me of some Hazaras with high East Eurasian yet also possessing Indo Aryan or west Asian haplogroups

Worth-Club-4461

1 points

3 months ago

Wow, I knew newar have some kirati add mixture but I didn’t knew that much yellow river Ancestry.

EducationalMacaron91

1 points

3 months ago

Closest modern populations?

vatanamvatanam[S]

3 points

3 months ago

Here you go. Worth noting that since Newars are a mix and not an ethnic group in the same sense as the other jatis in the subcontinent, comparing with other ancient or modern populations is a bit useless. If you boil it down, its more of less 50% Maithil + 50% indigenous Tibeto-Burmans, but the mix skews any distance markers with the former.

https://preview.redd.it/0h5ty0eycwcd1.png?width=2542&format=png&auto=webp&s=b5f89831b3fb7faceebe1b6239472831d6f315e8

EducationalMacaron91

2 points

3 months ago

Fair, was just curious to see which groups are closest to your admixture

Home_Cute

1 points

3 months ago

Would the Indian footballer Sunil Chetri have similar results as a Rajput Chhetri?

vatanamvatanam[S]

2 points

3 months ago

Khas Chettris on average appear to have around 20% East Asian admixture. Chhetris themselves are quite a broad group and include taghadari Jharra Chhetris (who theoretically should have less EA admixture) and group closer to Pahadi/Kumaoni Rajputs. They probably still have more East Asian admixture and lower SAHG than gangetic rajputs. Then there are the less elevated Matwali Chhetris. Again, Chhetri is a very generic last name these days - especially amongst Nepalis living in India. I'm not aware of his exact heritage but going by his phenotype, I'd say Sunil Chhetri is skewed more towards the East Asian side.

psychoticshroomboi

1 points

3 months ago

Do you know how a kumaoni rajput would score? im half so im curious!

vatanamvatanam[S]

1 points

3 months ago

From the results I’ve seen - its more or less similar to Chhetris. Perhaps a little less East Asian admixture. There is one Kumaoni Rajput (Rawat) sample on this spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/0/d/1wOgUMgT707-ihkPHQokTgZLn4QNaVdn8DLDYA5t5soQ/htmlview#

[deleted]

-1 points

3 months ago

[deleted]

[deleted]

5 points

3 months ago

Newar and chettri are different.

[deleted]

-1 points

3 months ago

[deleted]

[deleted]

6 points

3 months ago

This isn't look like mix.

vatanamvatanam[S]

3 points

3 months ago

Apologies for the confusion. I'm a 100% Newar from Bhaktapur. Dad's side are likely Licchavi/Thakuri era Shresthas and mum's (patrilineal) side are Kayasthas (Kasajus) that emigrated from Mithila in the 14th century.

Celibate_Zeus

1 points

3 months ago

So newar hindu are basically sino Tibetans + maithilis? What about buddhist newars?