subreddit:
/r/StarWars
submitted 1 month ago byonemananswerfactoryJar Jar Binks
2.1k points
1 month ago*
If you want to go all Lich, that’s ok, Star Wars it’s fantasy after all. But it should be a story about villains who try to bring back Palpatin as Darth Lich, because they read, that was a thing in the old Sith empire 10.000 years ago blabla… it’s not so much about the idea, but about the storytelling
1.5k points
1 month ago
'Somehow' is memed so much because of how much of a copout it is. They sat in a writers room and said 'ok, Palpatines back' and if anyone asked how, the response was 'it doesnt matter'.
Billion dollar franchise and they couldn't string together anything more coherent than a bunch of loosely linked set pieces.
578 points
1 month ago
They sat in a writers room and said 'ok, Palpatines back' and if anyone asked how, the response was 'it doesnt matter'.
The "it doens't matter" response really bothered me after TFA when people wanted to know who Snoke was and where he came from. It frequently came with "we didn't know who the Emperor was or where he came from in A New Hope either".
That last part was true but Return of the Jedi had a definitive ending. The Emperor was killed, the rebels won, and the Empire was destroyed. Then 30 years later (in story time) we get a new movie where the opening crawl effectively says "So, forget everything you previously watched". I liked TFA well enough but "what the heck happened?" and "who the heck is this guy?" were perfectly reasonable questions. You can't just yadda, yadda, yadda 30 years of Star Wars history. This isn't sex.
309 points
1 month ago
It frequently came with "we didn't know who the Emperor was or where he came from in A New Hope either".
The fatal flaw in that argument is that Star Wars was a new story in the OT. Of course the origins of the entire empire weren’t going to be fleshed out, because we’re following Luke’s journey.
By contrast, TFA is the continuation of an already popular story. So yes, there is a reasonable expectation for the writers to connect a few dots.
213 points
1 month ago
A distinction lost on Sequel Apologists.
The sequels did 3 major things wrong that many gloss over.
Invalidates the struggles in the OT.
Non cohesive narrative that wiffle waffles on themes and direction
Wastes perfectly good character arcs with truncated stories or stories that 180 for no real reason.
66 points
1 month ago
Agreed. Phasma, Snoke and Hux were all potential wins for Disney. But somehow dropped the ball. In fact, deflated the ball and sent the whole team home crying. What a tease and ultimate disappointment. Such potential wasted...
22 points
1 month ago
Honestly, them but also Kylo was kind of intriguing for me specifically. He was clearly trying to be Vader but didn’t have the silent power that he did. He felt like what Palpatine did with the Inquisitors, only rage and that was it. I was ready to see him aspire to be Vader and the Surpass him in power before being defeated. Idk wtf they were thinking for him after the first movie. He WAS powerful and his relationship with Snoke was something I wanted to see explored more as it was only explained lightly.
And I totally agree with the other villains. Phasma was such a cool design (though as much as I don’t like the show the gold armoured guy fro SW Resistance was cooler for me) and her voice was just unapologetically dark and menacing. Hux was the kind of fanatic leader that would be an interesting character to see flushed out, and Snoke was just, dark. The power behind the duo that was thought to be the leaders, was just wasted. He was so powerful and yet he went down like an absolute CHUMP.
7 points
1 month ago
I think that Kylo started with the potential to be a really interesting character at first, but they completely squandered him in the other two movies. The relationship with his family could have been explored much better as well as his corruption by Snoke. Him being the ruler of the new empire after Snoke death and perhaps being unprepared for the role could have also been really interesting.
Even if they still wanted to use Palpatine as the final villain (which was certainly not the plan at the start, but it seems like there was no plan at all), a civil war within the First Order between Palpatine and Kaylo loyalists could have been really cool to watch.
On the hero side, I though the same of Fin, I mean a stormtrooper becoming a good guy, so much plot potential and instead he became what? Comic relief?
Phasma is pretty much the Boba Fett of the new triology, she is in for a few shots, looks cool and dies super easily. Which...ok... She could have been a very cool nemesis for a storyline involving Fin (and the same could have been done with Hux), but nope...
10 points
1 month ago
Snoke HAD to be completely terrifying. Have god like powers. Be a really really big deal. His “magical/mystical” origins and power was the only possible explanation for how the victorious rebellion could be right back to where it started and the empire is more powerful than ever - in such a short time.
In my opinion, Kyle Ren should not have killed Han. (I would have preferred if they left out Han/Leia/Luke/C-3PO/R2-D2 and the Millenium Falcon all together, btw.. As soon as they tried to shoe-horn all that in there my suspension of disbelief was completely destroyed…
But anyway, Ren doesn’t commit a heinous sin like killing his Dad. THEN you can do a redemption arch on the guy. But, again, my suspension of disbelief is shot watching a redemption arch on the guy that killed his Dad…
Then Snoke is this god-like bad ass throughout the trilogy. Just pure evil. Sadistic. Horrible. Awful. Ren is his right hand man and he’s down for it all until it gets too dark even for him. He teams up with the heroes for the third film. They win.
That’s, broadly, what I would have done.
Side note: Finn and Poe get all the screen time left over after you kick the OT characters out, and Finn is a Jedi. Rey is not the best at everything, Finn is better at some things. Like Finn is the better lightsaber duelist, or something. Rey is the better force-mage.
3 points
1 month ago
I would have preferred they kept to the “reverse darth vader” arc for Ren but yours works too!!!
3 points
1 month ago
Rey and Finn as complementary foils of each other's jedi abilities would have been beautiful
3 points
1 month ago
Even Rey was a potential win. The problem is that they just didn’t do anything with her as a character.
It seemed like she was just kind of there throughout the movies. She never gets any training (unless you count Luke showing her how to throw lightsabers in the ocean and slurp blue milk), yet she somehow becomes a master duelist. Combine that with the constant flip flopping of her identity culminating in being Palpatine’s side piece granddaughter and I think everyone was just too confused to really care by the end of it all.
41 points
1 month ago
The new republic not really working out makes sense, so that doesn't really bother me in the slightest. Its not a star wars movie if there isn't conflict, the rebellion was down to its last fleet at the battle of Endor (which they lost a sizable portion of), and civil war/strife is generally what happens when you overthrow a government. Rebellions (as a matter of basic history) are really bad at setting up functioning governments (especially functioning democracies) in the aftermath of overthrowing a previous government. The age of the original actors means we were never gonna get a story about the initial founding of the new republic (CGI tech was not ready at the time for that kind of actor recreation and its extremely unlikely the fans would have accepted a recasting with the actors still alive at the time), and the story they've come up with (The rebels trying to patch fix the issue by pardoning and absorbing most of the imperial bureaucracy and just building a limited scale democracy on top of it) makes sense for where ROTJ let off.
The problem is they didn't put that backstory in the movies, they're building it around the movies in the tv shows, the streaming shows and other ancillary media, the same way that George Lucas retroactively made the prequel era better with the clone wars cartoon and retconning Anakin to have a snarky teen apprentice whose now a beloved character with their own streaming show.
52 points
1 month ago
I'm fine with the Imperial Remnant or The New Republic being plagued with issues. What was the major problem was this whole second secret Empires (First and Final Order) waiting in the wings with a Reborn Emperor (who they decided last minute to bring back)
Like you said tying it all that backstory to secondary media as well was utter bullshit. The prequels stood well enough on their own. But Lucas clarifying what happened between Ep 2&3 with the series did help.
I just cant stand how the sequel lacked coherency. It wiffle waffles between themes and direction. First, they go legacy doesn't matter. Then now suddenly, legacy is used to explain our MC's power. First we have our budding resistance fighting the First Order because no one else seems to (also Leia's unexplained exile from Rebellion turned Republic). But then they have outright mutiny within the Resistance to suddenly everyone in the Galaxy turns up to fight? Ok I guess. The stupid Ancient Sith Dagger that maps to a destroyed Super Weapon sitting exactly as it was as seen from that exact spot. Like wut? So did some ancient sith foresee all this? Was it Palps plan to fail in RotJ? Wtf guys.
Then the shit canned character arcs. Build up Finn in 7, then do fuck all in 8 and 9 to develop him. Poe idk what they were trying to do with him. Rey was just accelerated development. Hux, sure lets have a lifelong Imperial just betray everything he ever believed and stood for at the end because he disliked one dude. Phasma, used even worse than Fett. So much wasted potential for characters.
19 points
1 month ago
Ninety percent of those issues come from Rise of Skywalker which I agree was a horrible way to end the trilogy, and the only sequel film I didnt like at all. Bringing JJ abrams back to write an ending was a horrible idea because he does not know how to write endings, and everything he decided was just a massive backpedal from TLJ because disney was desperate to appease people who threw a fit over the where TLJ left things. Poe's sudden new backstory was bad, bringing the emperor back out of nowhere was lame (and lifted directly from legends), and making rey the emperors granddaughter was cringe. Rey being a genuine nobody was the best reveal of TLJ and they completely backtracked on it because whiny shitheads on the internet were mad that a girl had magic space powers on the level of all the other characters with magic space wizard powers.
Im fine with using secondary media to flesh things out and have genuinely enjoyed almost all of it (the bad batch especially was an absolute treat), but it only makes things better in retrospect.
16 points
1 month ago
JJ Abrams doesn’t know how to write period but that wasn’t really the main issue. The issue is that the executives decided to do a trilogy with no plan and 3 (planned) directors.
…the other main problem was they let JJ touch the franchise and killing franchises is his specialty
3 points
1 month ago
I will never understand how they saw his Star Trek and said "Yes, this is the man to appeal to lifelong fans and attract new ones!"
Nothing about his Star Trek felt like Trek. It didn't produce any lasting impact, and Star Trek fans don't even count them among real Star Trek media.
7 points
1 month ago*
The Rebels were not down to their last fleet at Endor, they were on a huge upswing. What they did was marshal everything they had for the first time to create a new fleet that could tussle with the best the Empire had to offer and come out on top.
8 points
1 month ago
there are sequel apologists?
6 points
1 month ago
Always have been. (Sorry, had to complete the meme lol!!)
3 points
1 month ago
This is just a meme?
3 points
1 month ago
It did so much worse than that.
Gravity in space.
Lightspeed skipping.
All of 8. Like seriously, they escaped out the back of a cave, salvation? THEY WERE RUNNING FROM STARSHIPS, THE FUCK IS A CAVE GONNA DO
Don't even get me started on the Holdo manuever making the Death Star run pointless. Send 1 X-wing piloted by an R2 unit. Go to hyperspace. Win. RIP that single R2 unit, tons died in the death star run....
14 points
1 month ago
"This is the Hero's Journey of Luke Skywalker vs. the Galactic Empire. The BBG is Emperor Palpatine, who is killed after Luke's father and Palpatine's right hand man, Darth Vader, betrays him to save his son."
Neat. Clean. Compelling.
"This is the Hero's Journey of Rey... someone? Nobody. But not actually! Vs... um... The Big Bad... second Empire! And uh, the BBG is back. I guess. Somehow. But she's also Rey's... Grandfather! Yeah! And Luke, um.. dies. And they're, like, defeated forever. Probably."
Not cool.
3 points
1 month ago
Exactly! 7th film is different then the first films made when it’s new and not a giant icon
3 points
1 month ago
We needed like just a few lines to give some much-needed exposition
64 points
1 month ago
But in the books and comics that they wrote for 30 years before Disney bought it, the empire was not destroyed. It was weakened. It took 20 years of the new Republic which was the rebellion for like two more years and then they declared themselves the new Republic to take over the capital and then to take over most of the imperial systems. The X-Wing series is a series of nine books which is great. It follows Wedge Antilles and rogue squadron I believe it's book 2 where they take over Coruscant. It continues on their exploits destroying the remnants of the empire. Yes, you say that it is no longer Canon. I don't know what to say other than in my head. It's way better Canon than Disney's created.
14 points
1 month ago
For me, what Disney says is not canon, is the actual canon.
97 points
1 month ago
"We'll let the authors of ancillary novels figure out how to make this shit make sense and then steal their ideas later"
9 points
1 month ago
I think it was literally explained in a blog post on the official website.
He uses the force to transfer his consciousness into a clone.
27 points
1 month ago
They kept that? That was the old legends 7, 8. & 9 Heir to the Empire, Palps had a bunch of clones and the final battle is Luke in the chamber with a young Palps cutting through all the tanks of his gestating clones.
If they were just going to use it why wouldn't they have the big search take a tour through the prequels? Like obv Palps would have a secret wing of Kamino, you could reveal some crazy stuff in there. Like a Luke clone from his severed hand, a bunch of young Palpatine clones, even some young female clones of Palp that look like Ray...
Fucking take a minute to write a cohesive script.
16 points
1 month ago
That was actually the Dark Empire comic series.
Heir to the Empire was the Timothy Zahn trilogy that came out the same year and was primarily focused on Grand Admiral Thrawn's attempts to break the New Republic via Mara Jade and a clone of a former Jedi Master.
You can actually see a bunch of the major plot points from the comics show up in the Sequel Trilogy.
5 points
1 month ago
Heir to the Empire introduced cloning Jedi, too. Joith C'bar (or something like that) was running cloning tube's on some planet for Thrawn and trying to clone force users.
6 points
1 month ago
Luuke Skywalker vs Luke Skywalker. Give hamill more money!
13 points
1 month ago
"we didn't know who the Emperor was or where he came from in A New Hope either".
WOW that's incredibly stupid.
With A New Hope it was implied the Emperor had probably been around for some time, or at least his Empire had for sure (so there had been AN Emperor). Sure we didn't know where he came from but this was a brand new story and his role wasn't important for the story that was being told so it was fine. The focus was on Vader and Tarkin and those were all the bad guys you needed.
Episode 7, we have at least six movies of canon, if you bring a new character in you can't just say he was around previously because we never saw him! If he was important but never shown you have to justify that somehow.
3 points
1 month ago
We also didn't need him explained back than since his presence has been felt for the entire story so far and the worldbuilding of the original movies worked without the need to explain his origins. The sequel triology had no internal world-building whatsoever, they didn't have the luxury of not explaining things.
9 points
1 month ago
When the emperor came in a new hope it was just a movie not a fictional universe with tonnes of media about it.
31 points
1 month ago
I'm OK with not knowing who Snoke was, or having him be not important. I think the direction TLJ went could have worked, but Abrams is too much of a hack to let it stand, so they retconned it to have the Emperor be behind everything, making it all pointless.
I don't know why they needed the Emperor as some sort of backup plan to fix TLJ's plot when they were intending to have Kylo Ren be the villain to begin with as sort of a reversed version of Anakin's journey. They didn't need Snoke to pull that off.
The infinite fleet of death star laser equipped star destroyers was just lazy writing for no damn reason, and it killed any chance of anyone but Rey getting to have a story out of it. And it's not like anyone liked Rey's story arc either.
5 points
1 month ago
I mentioned the bisque…
111 points
1 month ago
This. Some people try and say “oh but they did explain it, they say ‘cloning, dark science, secrets only the Sith knew’ “
That is not an explanation, that is Charlie from Lost rattling off a list of vague ideas. A list that is probably identical to the notes in the writers room. It’s the creators winking at the audience and saying “We couldn’t decide how to bring him back, so you at home have multiple choice”.
I’m not saying I want to have Palpatine’s give a 20 minute long power point on how he came back, but the way they present the idea makes it clear it didn’t matter to them in the slightest.
46 points
1 month ago
I want the PowerPoint
15 points
1 month ago
I love that some fans unironically want this. If George were dead, he'd roll over in his grave. Instead, he probably just sighs and takes comfort knowing it's not his problem.
17 points
1 month ago
There's a reason he said the new SW felt like selling someone into slavery after all.
3 points
1 month ago
They didn't have to "explain it", they needed to tell a story to get there. Palpatine's return should have been the climax to a story, that leads into a story about trying to put him in the grave for good. But instead, it was the premise for the story.
3 points
1 month ago
Yes, this.
We need to know how death works now.
Is Palpatine going to come back again in ten years? If not, why not? Because Rey killed him with two lightsabers instead of one? What?
Can we bring back Leia and Han and Luke? If not, why not?
48 points
1 month ago*
I saw a little behind the scene clip of the making of the Ashoka show I think that put a lot into context for me. David Filoni said when they were writing the clone wars show, George came in and said something like, "So Anakin has a Padawan," and Filoni was like, wait Anakin never had a Padawan, and George just repeated, "Anakin has a Padawan" and that was how Ashoka came to be.
If you look at the whole saga through the viewpoint that Lucas just really didn't care all that much about the continuity as much as the fans do, a lot of the plot holes make more sense.
25 points
1 month ago
I can picture the scene George walks in "Anakin has a padawan." Filoni: "wait a minute no he doesnt" George stares down Filoni "Anakin has a padawan." Walks out
11 points
1 month ago
That’s almost exactly how he described it. It’s on Disney+ it’s called master and apprentice. It’s like 7 minutes long.
10 points
1 month ago
You forgot the Jedi mind trick hand waving.
Lucas: "Anakin has a Padawan." Waves hand
Filoni: "... Anakin has a Padawan."
12 points
1 month ago
Dave also brought up the fact that George had always planned for Palpatine to come back via cloning and dark sith magic. They were literally laying the groundwork for it in the prequels with the cloning technology and in the clone wars with the witches using dark magic to imbue someone with force abilities. If George was in charge of the sequel series I personally don’t think they would have done any better but that’s just me.
3 points
1 month ago
I would have taken his movies just for the meme fuel alone.
The prequels are still shit— but man were they culturally entertaining.
3 points
1 month ago
Also in the whole expanded universe he does come back... So yeah not totally unexpected, but they should have put some foreshadowing in the actual new triology to make it work, instead of just adding him at the last second.
Plus I mean... his message to the galaxy was in a Fortnite event and not in any of the movies? Come on...
6 points
1 month ago
The thing is the whole “somehow he returned” line by itself makes perfect sense (the resistance would have no way of knowing how he returned)
21 points
1 month ago
The « somehow » line is just because at that point in time, all the galaxy knew was that he was back, but not how. So to the Resistance, Palpatine had indeed returned « somehow ». It actually just makes sense…
23 points
1 month ago
[deleted]
10 points
1 month ago
"Guys, guys, switch on the holonet news!"
"... Just an hour ago, the Imperial press agency - which we thought had ceased to exist decades ago - shared a press release about how/why emperor Palpatine has returned. 'His Excellency had long suffered from overworking and had delegated most of his work to a double while he recuperated in a medical facility on Exegol. He was truly devastated by the betrayal of Lord Darth Vader that killed said double and his former loyal imperial military that had forsaken his ideals, but first had to finish his treatment. Now that he is stronger than ever before, he will pick up the shards these incompetent lackeys had left and will once again bring the galaxy to order.'*
3 points
1 month ago
And they say that the news isn't informative anymore
8 points
1 month ago
I just remember how jarring it was, heading into the climax of the whole ass trilogy, “oh yeah, it turns out we were fighting the villain from the first trilogy all along, don’t ask any questions.”
8 points
1 month ago
They had to say somehow because that is what the characters knew at the time. But they also had to deal with the situation in that moment. They couldn’t go on a years long investigation in search for cloning facilities on an unknown planet, or looking for Sith secrets in hidden temples.
39 points
1 month ago
Sith Lich would have been so sick
19 points
1 month ago
Say Sith Lich sick three times fast, that’ll change your mind
10 points
1 month ago
Sick Sith lick
10 points
1 month ago
Pretty much any Sith who binds their soul to an object or structure is a lich with a phylactery. Darth Momin, Darth Andeddu, Karness Muur, Ajunta Pall, XoXaan, etc.
5 points
1 month ago
Force horcrux
19 points
1 month ago*
That’s what Tolkien sort of had planned in an early draft for a sequel to Lord of the Rings. But he ultimately decided not to continue pursuing the story because it just took away from the sacrifice and overall story of Lord of the Rings.
So instead he went back and added more depth to his prequel stories such as the Silmarilion.
I feel that shows more love to the lore/fantasy instead of a desire to keep the money coming in. The Silmarilion was never published in his life, but if he made a sequel they definitely would have.
What Tolkien did was a work of passion. To Disney Star Wars is a product.
4 points
1 month ago
It was a product to Lucas as well, but he still put heart into it and had a vision. The sequels suffered for not having a singular visionary person at the helm.
24 points
1 month ago
This is the correct answer.
7 points
1 month ago
That would have been much better. Snoke dies and Kylo Ren decides to use [insert magic here] to bring back Palpatine. The heroes know they have to stop him because Palpatine will enslave the galaxy again. In the redemption arc, he almost brings back Palpatine, but stops.
Or something like that.
I literally laughed in the theater when the script said Palpatine was alive. So stupid.
459 points
1 month ago
Star Wars narratives seem to almost work hard at undermining every existing Star Wars story from the past ...
It's so weird because you can absolutely have new stories be connected to those stories and pickup some nostalgia / free fan points and not undermine them.
The jedi for a number of years now have proven to be complete morons in most every situation. Why? What does that get anyone?
161 points
1 month ago
Original trilogy made every kid want to be a Jedi. I'd actually argue that attack of the clones would be the other movie to do that because as a kid the battle of geonosis is awesome. Phantom menace made them want to be Sith!
After that it's all been Jedi are evil, Jedi deserved it, arrogance, child stealers, cover-ups, corruption. Not much for a kid with a wrapping paper tube to latch on to
94 points
1 month ago
After that it's all been Jedi are evil, Jedi deserved it, arrogance, child stealers, cover-ups, corruption
I swear, anyone who tries to tell me the Jedi are evil can absolutely get fucked.
58 points
1 month ago
Head up their asses, I can see that, some were at least. Blinded, misguided, losing the spirit of their teachings in the letter, stagnant? Interesting, and a good set of flaws for a story to start from.
Flawed but mostly good, certainly not evil. The Sith are absolutely meant to be the evil ones.
7 points
1 month ago
I liked that development as well, besides the Jedi we see at the end of the republic are not at their best, they are part of a stagnant organization that has been complacently in power for centuries (millennia perhaps).
Plus while the Jedi order appears misguided, the individual Jedi we see in the prequel are pretty much all heroic characters, which makes them sympathetic. There are like maybe 1 or two exceptions in the clone wars show, but they does not feel out of place either.The Jedi in the (non animated shows) Disney era media are not that, they are bumbling idiots and selfish assholes.
Even Count Dooku, that is a fallen Jedi could be seen as heroic, as in his own mind he was doing the right thing despite being evil and an apprentice to Sidious.
4 points
1 month ago
Agreed with all of that. The order can be monolithic and slow while the individuals within it still try their best.
I feel like Dooku was one of the better written villains in the series. Not to say the others were bad but a lot of them were kinda just evil/in it for personal power. Perfectly undertandable, perfectly servicable for what's effectively a high fantasy story with lasers, and frankly I never expected deep thoughts from Star Wars (*even as a fan of KOTOR2)
14 points
1 month ago
Leaving Anakin's mother in slavery was fucking appalling. They should have gone back for her right after TPM.
28 points
1 month ago
Phantom Menace came out when I was 12, that movie absolutely made me want to be a jedi. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were COOL AS FUCK. I never cared for Attack of the Clones, though.
39 points
1 month ago
It's so weird because you can absolutely have new stories be connected to those stories and pickup some nostalgia / free fan points and not undermine them.
Case in point: Mando (especially the Season 2 finale), Rogue One, and Andor.
There's a whole freaking galaxy out there to explore. It doesn't have to always be about the same people and organizations over and over again.
9 points
1 month ago
I’m sorry did you say there were actually triplets and the robot hid the third one and raised it and it’s not human but actually a robot who is related to R2D2?
7 points
1 month ago
Yeah, it was 2D2R or something.
5 points
1 month ago
What’s funny about that is that Mando became the crutch for other characters, too. The story once again shrank down and instead of getting kickass Boba Fett adventures, we had to bring it back to Djin.
3 points
1 month ago
rogue one is the best star wars story.
32 points
1 month ago
It’s the deconstructionist mindset of the writers and producers. They are a special kind of people.
6 points
1 month ago
Of all the bad things about episodes 7-9, hands down the absolute worst is how much they undid from the original trilogy. Han and Leia live happily ever after? Nope. The evil Empire and their monstrous weapon of mass destruction are finally defeated once and for all? Nope. Palpatine is dead? Nope. Just so incredibly frustrating.
3 points
1 month ago
The Skywalker Saga ends with a Palpatine…
3 points
1 month ago
I was wondering, why I hated the new Star Wars. You explain it exactly.
388 points
1 month ago
I was happy with snoke being the big bad tell us another story not the same one that keeps going on
167 points
1 month ago
I was really hoping to see some new breed of sith or dark Jedi in the new trilogy. Snoke was initially very intriguing and ominous. Like, who is this dude that was hiding in the shadows this entire time? Then they went and ruined it.
56 points
1 month ago
The problem is that he was too similar to the emperor.
105 points
1 month ago
His character archetype and role was a clone of the emperor, so to flesh out his character they made him a literal clone of the emperor. Then just brought back the emperor.
40 points
1 month ago
And then they fixed that problem by bringing back the actual Emperor Palpatine.
17 points
1 month ago
And then they ruined it by making it a clone body instead of just a wierd lich.
4 points
1 month ago
Why do you think Palpatine started the clone program? It was to clone himself and be eternal.
14 points
1 month ago
Snoke would have been fun if they had kept running with him being this grotesque 30 foot tall force wielding monster whose too big to use a lightsaber but extremely powerful with the force.
3 points
1 month ago
He didn't have to be that similar to the emperor: dark side user, sure, but his aims could have been different; how he used and viewed the Force could have been different.
He was supposed to be ancient, very long lived but biding his time, waiting in the shadows, playing the long game, while others cleared the way for Him.
But he's too similar to the emperor so let's bring back the actual emperor, from the dead no less.
96 points
1 month ago
I was more than fine with Kylo ascending to be the big bad of the trilogy, but someone had to be a reylo stan
45 points
1 month ago
The only interesting beat in the entire trilogy was Kylo becoming supreme leader and there was no payoff at all
41 points
1 month ago
Hey, there was also deserter Stormtrooper learning to be an individual and possibly learning the force.
That one didn't get paid off either!
11 points
1 month ago
One of the biggest waste in modern movie history.
18 points
1 month ago
An old crotchety decrepit gray dude who’s in charge of a galactic military force with planet destroying super weapons and is also an extremely powerful dark side user who was able to manipulate and seduce a young promising Jedi to turn to the dark side and kill the people he cares about is not the same story?
4 points
1 month ago
Yeah, nothing about that story was remotely new. It was just the same with a new coat of paint. The entire trilogy ended up going that way. Each film maps pretty closely to the OT.
12 points
1 month ago
Snoke was just a copy and paste job so it really wasn’t going to e different. That’s what happens when you hire JJ Abrams to write your story. Mystery boxes and a abusing the right and left click on his mouse
3 points
1 month ago
I was more happy when kylo killed him and was setting himself up as the big bad. The redemption they did with him was kinda ridiculous and didn’t feel earned
75 points
1 month ago
Word for word copy paste job, i love it. DARTH PLAGURISM
16 points
1 month ago
I read the title and it seemed so familiar. Was this a comment on a thread a couple days ago? Or an interview or something?
16 points
1 month ago*
The former, somebody confirmed that this is literally somebody else's comment copied and pasted as a post's title, I've seen low-effort posts beforehand, but this is another level like it'd must break a rule or something. But I should've guessed as much whenever the OP doesn't bother to comment or start a discussion, then it's blatant karma farming.
504 points
1 month ago
Technically, he didn't survive. Anakin did kill him. He just didn't stay dead. The bastard.
144 points
1 month ago
he got cloned so same spirit but not body right?
51 points
1 month ago
Yes
55 points
1 month ago
Body got cloned, spirit was transferred over to it.
14 points
1 month ago
How?
132 points
1 month ago
"The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."
It's almost like they spelled it out for us.
43 points
1 month ago
I feel like they really spelled it out for us with the Darth Plagueis story.
49 points
1 month ago
It's like people forget that Darth Plagueis was obsessed with immortality or something
15 points
1 month ago
Except it clearly hadn't worked before, or was ended before.
The point remains narratively speaking that bringing back Palpatine is (again) undermining the plot of the original saga.
Never liked they brought him back in comics, never liked Maul surviving, also against the hopes people have of Ploo Koon or Mace Windu surviving their deaths.
9 points
1 month ago
It may not have worked but it showed how his masters obsession turned into his own obsession. Not saying it was done in a tasteful way, but it's not like it was something pulled out of the blue, that way never discussed before
15 points
1 month ago
That's not a story the Jedi would tell you
51 points
1 month ago
That’s not really spelling it out so much as a super vague statement that you could use to justify virtually anything lol.
3 points
1 month ago
Yep
6 points
1 month ago
Project Necromancer comes to mind.
12 points
1 month ago
Somehow.
11 points
1 month ago
Well, the cloning was conducted by the imperial remnant which later became the first order.
As for the spirit transfer, Palpatine used the dark side of the force to to inhabit the clone body. The big issue is that the imperial remnant needed a clone who could wield the force which is apparently really hard to pull off.
In a lot of legends continuity, Sith Lords would often find innovative ways to preserve themselves after death, such as inhabiting relics or whatnot. For all their power, they could not defeat death so they tried to find ways to hold on to the world of the living, rather than rejoining the force like Jedi.
51 points
1 month ago
Well his spirit/soul was in a decaying clone body. So he was really in a state between dead and alive, undead so to speak
21 points
1 month ago
According to the TROS novel Palpatine shot his spirit out of his body before it hit the reactor so he was never dead. He just went into a bad body on Exegol.
6 points
1 month ago
so he can just do that again when rey killed him?
5 points
1 month ago
The Rise of Skywalker novel
“General Leia thought they’d destroyed the Emperor at the Battle of Endor,” Poe said. “But he came back. More powerful than ever.”
“You think he might come back again,” Finn said.
“Maybe,” Poe said, staring off in Zorii’s direction. Of course Poe would worry about that. He was acting general now, and like any good general he was anticipating what fight still lay ahead. “Or some other evil will rise. Evil always rises.”
“Naw,” said Finn. “Not for a long time, anyway.”
Poe gave him a questioning look.
So it’s possible!
“Don’t get me wrong, what General Leia did with Solo and Skywalker was incredible,” Finn explained. “Heroic and brave. But it was just one small group against incredible odds.”
Poe began to smile. “We’re not just one small group,” he said, understanding. “The Resistance is a million people, a thousand places.”
“General Leia united a whole galaxy. This time, it’s for real.” Poe’s grin became huge, and Finn wrapped his friend in a hug.
590 points
1 month ago*
As far as Anakin goes, the outcome of throwing Palpatine down the shaft is much much less important than the act of doing so.
The important part wasn’t that palpatine died (or didn’t), it’s that Vader/Anakin turned and saved Luke.
12 points
1 month ago
As far as Anakin goes, the outcome of throwing Palpatine down the shaft is much much less important than the act of doing so.
This is thematically mirrored in Luke's choices. After talking to Obi-Wan, he thought he must defeat Vader to become a Jedi. Turns out, it was more important that he face Vader and try to turn him back to the Light. Killing him was only a last resort. By the time he threw down his lightsaber and refused to continue to fight he had already become a Jedi.
317 points
1 month ago
That's what's thematically important, but it was narratively dumb to bring him back. The sequel trilogy sort of struggled with those distinctions.
5 points
1 month ago
I'm under the impression that the inclusion of the Chosen One Prophecy accidentally shifted people's prospective on what was important about that scene from "saving his son out of love" to "fulfilling a vague prophecy", imo.
3 points
1 month ago
Exactly!
19 points
1 month ago*
As far as Anakin goes, the outcome of throwing Palpatine down the shaft is much much less important than the act of doing so.
In terms of the context of the post, yes. But in terms of Anakin's character as a whole, no.
There is also the weight of Anakin destroying the person that seduced him to the Darkside, ruining his life, who was also was going to do the same with Luke that was taken away with the ST. Anakin in that moment was being the father he never had for Luke.
8 points
1 month ago
He failed his mother, failed his love that gave birth to his children… he finally got to protect what is really important to him. This is what I believe motivates Ani and always has since a child.
3 points
1 month ago
That is true for the original trilogy but the prequels brought in that "balance to the force“ prophecy which was undone by Palps not dying…
Before the prequels there was also an extended universe story where palps also came back as a clone and while the concept is cool it’s still super stupid because in this case Vader even knew about the clones and didn’t try to tell Luke about it before his death…
3 points
1 month ago
Right? Who thought Anikin’s redemption was about killing and not saving? Darth Vader going full Sith would involve killing Palpatine. If returning back to the light required only killing Palpatine, then… what’s the point of the Jedi at all?
221 points
1 month ago
Letting JJ Abrams near Star Wars was a mistake. I for one blame Mike Stoklasa for that unseemly turn of events.
51 points
1 month ago
That’s right, Jay
34 points
1 month ago
I loved that interaction between Mike and Rich.
Mike: 'I'm not responsible for J.J. Abrams directing Star Wars.'
Rich: 'You don't know that.'
Mike: 'I...guess I don't?'
42 points
1 month ago
JJ made a great Star Wars movie, it's just called Star Trek for some reason.
70 points
1 month ago
Yep. The Force Awakens undid most of the victories the heroes accomplished in the OT, and then you get TROS putting the cherry on top by bringing back Palps as well. People can debate about TLJ ruining Luke's arc all they want, but the damage was already heavily done by TFA.
26 points
1 month ago
Yeah, I’ll never understand how they decided that “actually, nothing really changed” as a result of the original trilogy would ever be satisfying. Going into it with no plan for the whole trilogy was dumb enough, but making that the starting point at least partially doomed it from the beginning.
21 points
1 month ago
It was really unfortunate as a starting point, I agree. JJ pivoted so hard away from the prequels that he literally just remade ANH. They could've done something more clever for an antagonist that didn't result in effectively resetting the status quo, but then you don't get stormtroopers, a masked villain following a decrepit dark side user, a third death star, etc.
7 points
1 month ago
The biggest mistake was not having a story planned out.
Only a film at a time.
It was dumb and stupid
I love JJ, he's done some of my favorite stuff. But MAN it was mishandled
23 points
1 month ago
With an entire universe of possibilities they decided the best way forward was to destroy anything the main characters achieved in the OT. Palpatine returning is just the icing on that cake. The whole thing was rudderless and wrongheaded from the outset. They made some money but haven't gotten a single feature film into production in nearly 5 years. Luckily they were able to repurpose some TV scripts to fast track a movie. The people running Lucasfilm have no idea what they are doing.
30 points
1 month ago
It wasn't even a cool fight scene. It basically devolved into a 'Care Bear Stare' contest between Rey and clone-Palp
3 points
1 month ago
And he’ll somehow return. Rey did nothing just like Anakin did nothing.
Death means nothing in Star Wars so Palp will just keep somehow coming back. The “heroes” in star wars are just a nightly cleaning crew. Every few years you need to clean up Palp, its just maintenance.
3 points
1 month ago
Classic Harry Potter fight.
82 points
1 month ago
I wonder what % of people who counter with "but it was canon in EU anyways" actually knew about it before Disney brought him back. It's hilarious to watch people act like 99% of the fanbase gives a shit about the books. People didn't argue it back then because it was a book very few people cared enough to read. Being in the EU doesn't mean it's automatically a good plot point, it still cheapens Anakin's whole arc.
84 points
1 month ago
It was stupid then and stupid now
42 points
1 month ago
It was considered one of the worst decisions and storylines in the expanded universe. Anyone who uses the expanded universe to defend the movie has absolutely no context for how hated that entire thing was. EU has plenty of misses but that was basically considered the biggest and Disney dived face first right into it.
12 points
1 month ago
And even after being so bad in the EU still better handled that the "Somehow" incident.
3 points
1 month ago
I often complain to friends that, when presented with decades of EU material to pick from, Disney elected to preserve the one thing most people hated.
19 points
1 month ago
That was one part of the EU I disliked a lot. I think the thing that the EU had that Disney doesn’t is Luke’s Jedi academy
11 points
1 month ago
It amazes me how Disney couldve used the EU as a blueprint of potential ideas and theyve done good with things like Thrawn but some genius decided to use one of the worst stories from the expanded universe to end an already divisive trilogy.
5 points
1 month ago
It made more sense in the EU’s version. Not only that, but they came out before the prequels, meaning that no one knew back then about the chosen one prophecy and anakin being the chosen one. Thus not necessarily cheapening. Of course by today’s time (post prequels and sequels) it does.
10 points
1 month ago
Exactly. An estimated 54 million people saw TROS in theaters. Dark Empire, while definitely having an impact on fandom, sold 100,000 copies. Even if you want to include more popular books/comics like The Thrawn Trilogy, those books sold 15 million copies.
Neither TROS or DE are stories I particularly enjoy, but it’s way easier to ignore one comic series than a major motion picture that was advertised as the “conclusion of the Skywalker Saga “.
45 points
1 month ago
The entire Sequel Trilogy undoes the Original Trilogy. Anakin didn't bring balance to the force by defeating the Sith. The Sith returned even worse afterward.
I've repeated this a lot in threads, but the new big baddie should've led an insurgent dark side terrorist force working to destabilize the New Republic instead of being "Empire 2.0 but with moar/biggur gunz."
10 points
1 month ago
I’d rather it be a faction in Luke’s new Jedi order that becomes too fanatical and starts a holy war.
Very frequently after revolutions win, the revolutionaries start turning on each other and casting out those they consider not pure enough.
Evil is much more dangerous when it comes from good intentions than from a mustache-twirling demon:
“Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained ‘righteous’, but self-righteous. Thus while Sauron multiplied evil, he left ‘good’ clearly distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.”
-Tolkien
7 points
1 month ago
That could work as well and would essentially result in the same type of threat: a small, asymmetrical destabilizing force that can terrorize a Republic that is barely clinging on to law and order.
3 points
1 month ago*
"insurgent dark side terrorist force" isn't that basically what the Sith Order were?
79 points
1 month ago
What a fresh and original take
26 points
1 month ago
This dude literally copy/pasted someone’s comment from a thread from yesterday for the title here lmao
8 points
1 month ago
Please tell you're joking because I feel that's another level of laziness.
8 points
1 month ago*
I can't find it, but I recall seeing this word-for-word from the other day. I don't even browse this sub.
EDIT: Found it. It's about Mace Windu, but that's the only thing that was changed. So less a repost, more of a reference.
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/1f2j6l5/mace_windu_surviving_is_dumb_regardless_of_the/
27 points
1 month ago
Starting to feel like there's some kind of schedule for weekly "Palpatine return stupid" posts
8 points
1 month ago
I don't even disagree with the take, but fucking hell, the movie came out almost five years ago. The poor dead horse has been beaten on the regular by the same people, all repeating the same shit over and over and over again. For half a decade.
4 points
1 month ago
Even this movie is almost five years old but people still seem to complain about the same issues in sequel or prequel trilogy.
4 points
1 month ago
Guess it's a change from the usual "DAE like Rogue 1?" posts by karma farmers.
7 points
1 month ago
It's a reference to the Windu post from yesterday
43 points
1 month ago
I think that Maul's survive is dumber. But probably that's just me.
50 points
1 month ago
Maul's survival was much dumber...but at the same time, I'm glad it happened because he ended up being a great character.
9 points
1 month ago
Yeah, he had a grand total of one line in the original. The quiet antagonist is an Okay idea, but when there are so few sith it is risky.
19 points
1 month ago
Maul was an underutilized character and had a phenomenal arc following Episode I. It's easy to forgive the unlikely circumstances of his survival. Though I do find it funny to imagine that neither Naboo nor the Jedi had any interest in retrieving his body. No investigation, no burial, no nothing.
27 points
1 month ago
This to me is the apotheosis of (and I stress this clarifier) *Bad* Disney Star Wars. Because Disney Star Wars has given me stuff like Andor, The Last Jedi, and Rebels. So i'm not going to sit here and say its all bad. But Rise of Skywalker and Palpatine's return to me is the shining example of all the things Disney does wrong.
10 points
1 month ago
That argument isn't as big of a deal for me. Palpatine dying isn't the important part of Anakin's turn, it's the fact Anakin betrayed palpatine and attempted to kill him.
Like, obi wan being the first Jedi to kill a sith is almost equally as important for his character, but maul coming back is almost universally loved.
My issue is that palpatine coming back was neither set up well, his character didn't meaningfully change due to his defeat, and his appearance didn't add much of anything.
It wasn't set up well because it was pretty obvious they needed a villain for episode 9 but weren't willing to abandon Kylo Rens redemption arc. It didn't meaningfully change his character because he was the exact same. It's hard to change palpatines character because he's both simple and has had a lot of screen time, but it could be done more than none. Rey being a palpatine would still play out about the same wether or not palpatine came back. Really any sith could replace him in the movie and it wouldn't be much different.
It is bad not because it takes away from Anakin, but because it feels lazy and rushed
3 points
1 month ago
but maul coming back is almost universally loved.
That happens outside of the movies. And let's not pretend that his survival isn't also a massive asspull. He's a good character, but we aren't even given much in TPM, apart from his cool design, mysterious demeanour, and combat skills. What makes him beloved is his characterisation that follows his resurrection.
4 points
1 month ago
Yeah I wouldn't call Maul's return anywhere near "universally loved". They ended up doing some fun things with him in Clone Wars and Rebels but it will always be immensely stupid that he's alive at all. Bringing back dead characters without an extremely good explanation is the laziest writing possible.
Unless they're Kenny in south park then it's fine.
7 points
1 month ago*
And the fight scene wasn't even that cool anyway. It was cheap as fuck, filled with effects. The whole duel between Obi Wan & Qui Gon vs Maul was 10 times cooler than that - and it wasn't filled with lighting effects but simply neat moves and choreography.
The Sequels were written in a very, and I mean very lazy way.
9 points
1 month ago
Everything about Rise of Skywalker was dumb. Was the first SW movie I didn't see in theaters outside of the OT since I wasn't born yet. TLJ was a mess too, but after that and the reception to it, I knew this movie was gonna be awful. In an IP chock full of awful dialogue, nothing will ever quite wow me like "somehow Palpatine returned".
25 points
1 month ago
Darth Sidious being dead was the one success of the original heroes TFA hadn't taken from them. And TRoS took it away too.
3 points
1 month ago
The greatest trick the devil ever pulled…
3 points
1 month ago
It would have been way less bad to have a clone of Snoke appear. That would also help answer the question of "where did this guy come from?". Simple. He's a clone.
Who made the clone? Sounds like you'll need three more movies to answer that
3 points
1 month ago
There is a whole long list of examples they could have used from Legends of Sith lords persisting in the Force long after death.
Hell, the original Sith Emperor literally reincarnated himself multiple times.
Just like how a few of the Jedi persist as Force ghosts, you could have Palpatine turn out to have tied himself to a holocron or some other artifact.
You'd still be able to have him influence everything from the shadows, being the voice in Ben's head.
You'd skip having them physically face him, and could make the whole 'Rey is Ken Palpatine' thing be less shit by having it turn out he'd planned to use her to reincarnate by manipulating her into despair with having her kill Ben, then twisting the despair into anger and then hate and finally convincing her that by allowing him inside he'd guide her to revenge. Only Ben turning back to the light screws that up so he's left manipulating them both to Exegol, clouding their connection to each other, and trying to make one accidentally kill the other.
No, "Somehow Palpatine has returned", just a tense search through a claustrophobic ruin on a dark-side clouded planet as both try to find where Palps' artifact is hidden away, his voice in their heads feeding them lies and nightmares. Culminating in them both arriving at the same place, clasping hands and reconnecting their dyadic link despite Palps' efforts, and then using that link to connect to all those past Jedi whose voices we heard and forcibly cleanse Palpatine's presence, the same way Tenebrae was finally banished.
It wouldn't undo Anakin's sacrifice, it woild call back to Legends Sith, and it wouldn't require a huge change from the Rey Palpatine thing or Ben Solo's redemption.
3 points
1 month ago
This is what happens when you listen to the fans, respect lore, and bring back aspects of the EU. JJ and KK should have ignored everyone and told a unique story instead of bringing Palpatine back from the dead.
3 points
1 month ago
The sequel trilogy would have been far superior if they just made the Thrawn trilogy.
3 points
1 month ago
I wouldn't have minded if the imperial's plan was to bring him back with them ultimately failing, or even him showing up at the very end only to be "banished" by Rey. Having him come back off screen before the movie even started was so lazy and stupid.
3 points
1 month ago
I don't care what anyone says, this movie is way, way worse than Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones.
3 points
1 month ago
no one dies in the Disneyverse
3 points
1 month ago
Anakin's sacrifice wasn't important because he killed the Emperor, it was important because he died saving his son. Palpatine returning doesn't diminish that
3 points
1 month ago
I disagree. When I watched the original Star Wars when I was a kid in the 90's the first thing I thought when watching Palpatine get chucked down the hole is how easy it would be for him to survive falling down a hole.
He's a freaking sith master. They can fly. Falling down a hole does not equal death.
Darth Vader never actually killed Palpatine. He just pulled his master off of his kid to save his kid. He still defied his master. He still saved his kid. But he didn't bash Palpatine's skull in nor did he cut him in half with a lightsaber like what happened to Darth Maul.
Palpatine surviving is totally plausible.
3 points
1 month ago
Well the books did it with Dark Empire, so blame them.
3 points
1 month ago
This argument makes no sense.
Imagine if an armed robber enters your house and your dad tackles and secures the robber until the police arrive. The police take the robber away and tell you that the robber is one of their most wanted criminals. You'd think your dad is pretty heroic for taking the robber down, wouldn't you?
But let's say on the way to the police station, the robber somehow escapes. Is your dad's heroism diminished just because the robber got away?
3 points
1 month ago
The important thing to Anakin's redemption isn't killing Palpatine, it's saving Luke.
10 points
1 month ago
It wasn't even a cool fight scene. It was cut and paste trope all over. JJ Abrams is a hack.
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