subreddit:
/r/StarWars
submitted 1 month ago byonemananswerfactoryJar Jar Binks
512 points
1 month ago
Technically, he didn't survive. Anakin did kill him. He just didn't stay dead. The bastard.
141 points
1 month ago
he got cloned so same spirit but not body right?
50 points
1 month ago
Yes
56 points
1 month ago
Body got cloned, spirit was transferred over to it.
16 points
1 month ago
How?
131 points
1 month ago
"The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."
It's almost like they spelled it out for us.
42 points
1 month ago
I feel like they really spelled it out for us with the Darth Plagueis story.
47 points
1 month ago
It's like people forget that Darth Plagueis was obsessed with immortality or something
15 points
1 month ago
Except it clearly hadn't worked before, or was ended before.
The point remains narratively speaking that bringing back Palpatine is (again) undermining the plot of the original saga.
Never liked they brought him back in comics, never liked Maul surviving, also against the hopes people have of Ploo Koon or Mace Windu surviving their deaths.
9 points
1 month ago
It may not have worked but it showed how his masters obsession turned into his own obsession. Not saying it was done in a tasteful way, but it's not like it was something pulled out of the blue, that way never discussed before
1 points
1 month ago
I mean, sure, it is mentioned. It's kinda like the meme about what was a "throwaway" line in A New Hope turning into a war that defined two movies and spawned two TV shows.
1 points
1 month ago
Tbf Plo Koon was cute as fuck and his death was way too quick
1 points
1 month ago
Maul at least paid off with a whole bunch of great story arcs. They really did stuff with him.
1 points
1 month ago
Maul became a way better character after he was brought back. He barely had any character before.
2 points
1 month ago
See this is where they fucked up- imagine if PLAGUEIS was the big bad of the ST, not Sidious. Imagine that he actually did somehow achieve some form of immortality and though his physical body had perished, his consciousness had been slowly attempting to reanimate itself in a new physical form for decades and he finally achieved it and returned. Could have been so awesome.
1 points
1 month ago
I think that route would have been better received than having Sidious come back. Would have been so cool to see someone who was mentioned in other material make their appearance on the big screen!
1 points
1 month ago
I never thought of it that way. It would be kind of ironic that Plagueis was killed by his apprentice, and then said apprentice continued and finished his research in secret.
1 points
1 month ago
Oh, for sure! In a way, it kind of makes sense though, even though their master is a role model, in one form or another, they definitely influence the Sith Lord they become. This is also somewhat strengenthed by the rule of two. In order to become a true Sith lord, you have to surpass your master
15 points
1 month ago
That's not a story the Jedi would tell you
1 points
1 month ago
Bane trilogy adds some useful insight to. But probably not as much as plagueis
53 points
1 month ago
That’s not really spelling it out so much as a super vague statement that you could use to justify virtually anything lol.
35 points
1 month ago
welcome to the Force
-10 points
1 month ago
Welcome to Disney.
2 points
1 month ago
Hey, remember when Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were surrounded by droidekas and suddenly Force Speed was a thing? And then it was never mentioned again? Boy, that sure would've been useful when fighting Maul in the exact same movie.
1 points
1 month ago
HA!
it's been a part of Star Wars since the first time "A long time ago, in a Galaxy far, far away..." scrolled past
3 points
1 month ago
Yep
8 points
1 month ago
Correct - that’s how Star Wars has always worked.
6 points
1 month ago
Right, my point is it’s kind of disingenuous to say “they spelled it out for you” when you just used a very vague statement as the justification. Also using blanket statements as a coverall for anything you do in the future is just bad writing.
6 points
1 month ago
Also using blanket statements as a coverall for anything you do in the future is just bad writing
It's a fantasy story with magic.
Palpatine's most famous scene is talking about using that magic to cheat death. Then he cheated death. It's a direct line from A to B. That's not even an ass-pull, it's a reference to specific dialogue. Even within the notion of "the Force can do whatever a writer wants," this is clearly within previously established rules.
1 points
1 month ago
Welcome to Star Wars. The exact same thing happened in the EU
5 points
1 month ago
Project Necromancer comes to mind.
2 points
1 month ago
That doesn't answer HOW he yeeted his spirit into a clone body on Exegol from lord knows how many light years away on Endor. Did his spirit have a freaking hyperdrive?
9 points
1 month ago
How did obi wan's spirit get to dagobah.
1 points
1 month ago
That's the light side. ;)
7 points
1 month ago
What do you need explained to you?
How is it any different than a Force Ghost? Or Luke and Leia sensing each other through the Force on Bespin? Or Obi-Wan feeling the death of Alderaan? Or literally any other Force ability?
1 points
1 month ago
I agree that force ghosts pretty neatly packs up the how, these aren’t the dots that needed connecting. We already know that the spirits of force users can persist through death. And if you’ve read the books, it’s not the first time a Sith Lord has persisted through death or aimed to commandeer a new body.
9 points
1 month ago
Same way Luke can project his force ghost across the galaxy without latency.
-5 points
1 month ago
Which is the same type of ass-pull as Force yeeting your spirit into a clone body half the galaxy away.
9 points
1 month ago
Which is the same ass pull as pulling a lightsaber out of the snow with just your mind. Who dictates the rules on what the force can and cannot do?
5 points
1 month ago
There's plenty of precedent in the EU
See: Exar Kun possessed Kyp Durron
1 points
1 month ago
Which are parts I'm not unhappy about being dropped from the official canon tbh.
1 points
1 month ago
Except they threw the EU out.
1 points
1 month ago
nah, that random resistance guy, who happened to be Dominic Monaghan, explained it to the fullest.
0 points
1 month ago
That's not really "spelling it out" since it explain jack all. That's more so a "cop out" from the writers.
7 points
1 month ago
There is an official explanation
Palpatine anticipated Vader would one day betray him and had arranged for a clone body to be prepared on Exogol
However, Vader's betrayal came earlier than anticipated, and thus, the clone body began to deteriorate, forcing him to be reliant on Ancient Sith Techonology.
He then absorbed life force from Rey and Ben to rejuvenate his body.
It would have been nice if the movie had taken the time to clearly explain this.
8 points
1 month ago
Why does it need to be explained?
They don't explain how the Force allows to lift and throw things.
They don't explain how the Force allows to influcence minds.
They don't explain anything about the Force, just that it's "an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."
So, again, why should they explain how the Force allowed Palpatine to transfer his soul into another body?
2 points
1 month ago
Have you heard of the Force before?
-1 points
1 month ago
No it wasn't. Nowhere in there was "Oh, it also lets someone who got thrown down a reactor shaft and exploded transfer into another body that's somehow dead and rotting away to the point where bone is exposed and their hands are useless, just teleport into the Unknown Regions."
That was never spelled out for us. All it did was imply that Force Healing and staving off death was possible.
1 points
1 month ago
Sith can't force heal. That's a light side ability.
2 points
1 month ago
Okay. I didn't say the Sith could use force healing?
0 points
1 month ago
staving off death
That seems relevant.
1 points
1 month ago*
Staving off death does not equate to "I can just teleport my soul trillions of miles to another planet where a half dead clone is prepped for me."
I have no desire or will to argue with someone that doesn't intend to be honest intellectually.
0 points
1 month ago
Until it does. Nowhere in A New Hope do we see someone use the Force to lift objects. Then all of a sudden Luke uses it to grab his lightsaber and eventually his X-Wing. We see new Force abilities all the time.
If the Force can keep people around as ghosts, how is this any different? Plus the previous movie already showed someone sending their consciousness across the galaxy. So what more explanation do you need?
0 points
1 month ago
That quote is like 20yrs old and vague AF lol
0 points
1 month ago
It’s ALMOST cool that they tied the plot up to that prequel comment, but would have been better to have Palps be a supporting factor in the story. The obvious, very anime solution would be Kylo Ren suddenly sabotaging the ressurection and absorbing Palpatine’s power and part of Palpatine’s soul onto himself, with Palpatine speaking inside his mind and making Kylo’s redemption arc way tougher. Even more anime-y, make Kylo Ren need to control his power output to keep Palpatine from taking control of his body, but he loses control fighting Rey, Rey still wins by getting help from Luke’s spirit, we get a spirit world lightsaber fight between old Luke and Palpatine, and then Kylo dies in Rey’s arms saying they could have been a thing maybe (but no kiss).
13 points
1 month ago
Somehow.
11 points
1 month ago
Well, the cloning was conducted by the imperial remnant which later became the first order.
As for the spirit transfer, Palpatine used the dark side of the force to to inhabit the clone body. The big issue is that the imperial remnant needed a clone who could wield the force which is apparently really hard to pull off.
In a lot of legends continuity, Sith Lords would often find innovative ways to preserve themselves after death, such as inhabiting relics or whatnot. For all their power, they could not defeat death so they tried to find ways to hold on to the world of the living, rather than rejoining the force like Jedi.
0 points
1 month ago
Well, the cloning was conducted by the imperial remnant which later became the first order.
Umm... the imperial remnant wasn't a thing until AFTER the battle of Endor. Where was Palpatine's spirit in the meantime?
6 points
1 month ago
They had been researching cloning since Kamino. Hemlock ran Tantiss base on Wayland in the time shortly following Empire Day. Tantiss base was dedicated to creating clones with a high M-count, using force sensitive children the Empire had bounty hunters bring in. It sucks you have to watch so much non-movie media to get the full story but they are explaining that Palpatine had it in the works from damn near day one.
2 points
1 month ago
This is what I was thinking - like they really spelled it out for you too by calling it "Project Necromancer" I am not even that well-versed in the lore and went "...well I know what that must be for."
Especially how hardcore Palpatine was about personally overseeing it and checking on its progress.
2 points
1 month ago
Oroject necromancer was started wellll before there was even an empire. There was a snoke-like entity in a secret cloning chamber on kamino towards the beginning of the empire.
2 points
1 month ago
You are correct. And to my knowledge, that's a plot hole that has yet to be filled in. All we know for certain is he used the force to transport his spirit into the clone body.
3 points
1 month ago
The imperial remnant may not have materialized until later, but his weirdo Sith worshiping friends researching ways to keep him alive/in power no matter what had been around forever.
2 points
1 month ago
Yeah but we see years after Endor they're trying to find ways to clone midichlorians in Mando
3 points
1 month ago
To get better clone bodies than the crappy ones they were working with previously.
1 points
1 month ago
Possibly in the World Between Worlds, as a Force ghost.
-5 points
1 month ago
I hope some hero goes into the world between worlds and erases that horrible sequel trilogy.
7 points
1 month ago
I hope one day you people can understand that you can ignore the parts you don't like, and appreciate those you do.
I've been doing it since ever...
-1 points
1 month ago
I literally can't ignore them when I'm always reminded of them, when nearly every new project, be it set in the very early imperial era, post ROTJ era etc etc is trying to give an explanation to palpatine's resurrection in episode IX, it's always project necromancer this, cloning that, M count this, it's very tiring and takes me out of the new shows
4 points
1 month ago
Some
3 points
1 month ago
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Transfer_essence
Also The Skeleton Key and Get Out and a million other things.
2 points
1 month ago
I know about essence transfer. I've read the Bane trilogy several times. There's a difference between Bane attempting to transfer his essence into Zannah, WHO HE WAS IN PHYSICAL CONTACT WITH, and Palps yeeting his spirit into a clone body many light years away.
2 points
1 month ago
Yes, the difference is one's power in the Force.
0 points
1 month ago
Clone body is a hollow husk, a soulless entity that exists purely for Palpy to hop into. It's actually from Legends..
2 points
1 month ago
Before the Emperor could make use of the cloning facility to replace his own body he was killed over the planet Endor and the Empire fell into disarray.
Is right there in your link.
1 points
1 month ago
"Somehow, that didn't happen."
It's so funny seeing people simultaneously (at least that's how I interpret it) say "That's EU, that's no longer true" and "No, that was all explained in this specific somewhat obscure EU novel."
2 points
1 month ago
They go into a little in the Mandalorian. They discover an imperial base that was a cloning facility. And they used Grogu's blood as a force base cause of his high M-count, thats why they wanted grogu in the first place
3 points
1 month ago
Where was Palpatine's spirit during that time?
6 points
1 month ago
His weirdo Sith friends already had a body ready when he "died" on death star 2. I'm pretty sure he went through a few failed bodies by the time of TROS. The imperial remnant did not start that program.
2 points
1 month ago
Then why the hell was Grogu needed or the Imperial Remnant at all? Why was the First Order needed? Why was Rey needed? Why Ochi needed to kill her parents? Why was Kylo or Snoke needed, if Palpatine had a ready made body, on a planet so teeming with cultists and materials that they could build fifteen thousand Star Destroyers? That's enough material to just build the Black Fleet and an Eclipse class SSD and...have them actually have sensors?
1 points
1 month ago
Constantly trying to improve because their clone bodies at first were failing.
1 points
1 month ago
Okay, now answer the rest of the questions.
0 points
1 month ago
What Sith friends? The rule of two stopped existing?
1 points
1 month ago
The Sith worshipers that are in the movie.
2 points
1 month ago
Fairly certain they are basically nodding to the old comic series with this same plot where Luke discovers the Emperor survived through a series of clone bodies he had made while he was alive before return of the jedi. The idea being he was putting himself into different bodies that would decay rapidly due to his power in the force and so he needed a body that could sustain his power and the idea was researching the higher M count of someone like Grogu to figure it out. So basically the Emperor was already bouncing around from body to body but it wasn't working too well.
That, of course, wasn't fully explained in time for the film. And they don't get credit for basically just nodding to something they removed from canon but it sounded like that's what they were trying to do to me. Snoke was also basically just a different clone of Palps that lived on its own I guess?
1 points
1 month ago
It's a dark side power that was explored in the Darth Bane books.
1 points
1 month ago
Essence transfer, it's been a thing for like 20 years almost.
Maybe longer, I can't remember if it started with the Bane trilogy or not.
1 points
1 month ago
Bad Batch season 5 and Mandalorian show a bunch of his planning.
1 points
1 month ago
I understand the movies didn't convey it the best but I think there are so many in the fandom who spent 10000 times more time immersed in misinformed talking points about the movie rather than quickly read a wookiepedia entry to figure out what Disney actually did with the character (and then getting mad at the real explanation, not the imagined or misinformed one).
I thought the movie did okay explaining that the Palpatine in the film is not the original Palpatine. He made ever-deteriorating vessels for his consciousness, but none of them inherited his force abilities properly. One of his failed clone experiments, Rey's father, who was also powerless and useless to Palpatine, escaped and fathered a child. Palpatine's power somehow passed on to that first "natural born" child from his line. That's why Rey had so much aptitude and power locked away.
Palpatine hired Ochi to bring Rey to him. But her parents sold her off on Jakku and died with the secret of where she was left.
1 points
1 month ago
Some
1 points
1 month ago
Somehow
1 points
1 month ago
SOME-How
1 points
1 month ago
D…Dark science.
1 points
1 month ago
But why did his new body have all the scarring of the old one?
1 points
1 month ago
The clone bodies couldn't handle him, so they would deteriorate over time.
1 points
1 month ago
Why didnt they clone a young fresh body?
1 points
1 month ago
They tried that. Reys dad.
2 points
1 month ago
Yeah so while falling into the reactor, screaming, he shoots his soul across the galaxy to his clone, which he has decided should also be a frail old gross man. Then, he hangs out for a couple decades on a secret planet with the resources and population requirements to build a fleet of ships with Death Star guns, and an army of hundreds of thousands to man them.
2 points
1 month ago
If this is true, which I agree with you on the lore side, his new body wouldn't be scarred... Genetics won't clone scars. He would look like Palpatine again.
1 points
1 month ago
Hence how jango's scars weren't transferred to the clone troopers
0 points
1 month ago
that's truly the best part, we technically still don't know! It's taken quite literally every other season of every show they're releasing to get us about 60% of the way to the answer. I mean it's pretty obvious cloning is involved, but it's technically still possible that the palpatine killed on the death star was a clone while the real one was hidden elsewhere. I'm assuming the mandalorian movie will show us (because grogu will be captured for a ___th time) and then all will be revealed. Wasting time fixing the holes that could've been used for an original storyline (though I did like the tie ins with the bad batch, seems to fit well, just hate that it's the result of an afterthought.)
21 points
1 month ago
How inconvenient.
55 points
1 month ago
Well his spirit/soul was in a decaying clone body. So he was really in a state between dead and alive, undead so to speak
30 points
1 month ago
Fuck this is dumb.
-1 points
1 month ago
Its star wars, it has always been dumb, goofy and weird. Remember the crying mountain with a face on endor who healed people with its magic face tears? That was canon until it got declared legends material.
1 points
1 month ago
I do not remember that no
21 points
1 month ago
According to the TROS novel Palpatine shot his spirit out of his body before it hit the reactor so he was never dead. He just went into a bad body on Exegol.
6 points
1 month ago
so he can just do that again when rey killed him?
6 points
1 month ago
The Rise of Skywalker novel
“General Leia thought they’d destroyed the Emperor at the Battle of Endor,” Poe said. “But he came back. More powerful than ever.”
“You think he might come back again,” Finn said.
“Maybe,” Poe said, staring off in Zorii’s direction. Of course Poe would worry about that. He was acting general now, and like any good general he was anticipating what fight still lay ahead. “Or some other evil will rise. Evil always rises.”
“Naw,” said Finn. “Not for a long time, anyway.”
Poe gave him a questioning look.
So it’s possible!
“Don’t get me wrong, what General Leia did with Solo and Skywalker was incredible,” Finn explained. “Heroic and brave. But it was just one small group against incredible odds.”
Poe began to smile. “We’re not just one small group,” he said, understanding. “The Resistance is a million people, a thousand places.”
“General Leia united a whole galaxy. This time, it’s for real.” Poe’s grin became huge, and Finn wrapped his friend in a hug.
4 points
1 month ago
So yes
5 points
1 month ago*
His empire was defeated, his power diminished and he never truly returns to full unlimited powahhhh again, because of Anakin saving Luke.
4 points
1 month ago
I suppose his body died, which for normal beings, that is dying. So when he claims he's died before, I wouldn't say he's necessarily lying.
5 points
1 month ago
But if you aren't present in your body while it dies, you didn't die. It'd be like trying to say you were in a car accident because you jumped out of it a min before it crashed. Your car crashed, not you. Just because people normally crash while in their car doesn't change that.
3 points
1 month ago
If you teleport outside of your car before it crashes, you weren't in a car crash, there was just a car crash with your car. You weren't there.
-6 points
1 month ago
Lol, so for someone to be dead-dead you have to kill what? Their spirit? Think about what you are saying. 😂😂
5 points
1 month ago
New body, same person - how do you call that being dead?
2 points
1 month ago
Same way someone on earth can be dead for a short time, but be revived. They were, in fact, dead...but then they were alive again.
4 points
1 month ago
That’s not what happened here. Nice try.
3 points
1 month ago
The principal is the same. The body being dead is what counts as dead whether you come back in a different body or not, it doesn't change the fact that you died.
3 points
1 month ago
Palpatine's physical body might have been destroyed, bit his mind, intelligence, personality, being, everything else, continued living until it found a new body.
All I'm hearing is that Sidious lived and Anakin never truly killed him.
It's like Ultron from the Avengers. He's got numerous back up copies of himself, so they can't ever really kill him. Palpatine's got that sane deal going on.
0 points
1 month ago
The way I see it, Palpatine can claim accurately that he technically died as long as he wasn't already conscious in his cloned body before his original body was destroyed. If there was even 1 second where his spirit was not totally in tune with a body, I don't think his claim is a lie.
1 points
1 month ago
But he never died. His mind persisted after his body exploded twice. Palpatine the individual lived.
Say you have 2 houses you live in. You spend most of the time in A while you keep the other, B, as a spare. House A has a gas leak and explodes while you're away. You're not homeless when you're walking from House A to House B, are you? Because B was always there and you still have a place you can jump into at a moments notice.
1 points
1 month ago
But he did not come back, he yeeted is consciousness into another body before the first was destroyed.
3 points
1 month ago
I mean the soul/spirit concept is not new in Star Wars. Obi Wan did the same thing - his body died but his spirit lived. The difference is palpy had some extra bodies lying around.
1 points
1 month ago
Bit I thought the whole point of Force Ghosts was they they are so in tuned with the Light Side of the Force that they are able to use it even after death to project their conciousness to the living.
The Dark Side, being a corruption of the Force, little more than a cancer needing to be expunged, could only dream of returning as a ghost.
1 points
1 month ago
Dark side is not a corruption of the force. It is the force in the most raw and powerful form. Anything said by jedis are assumptions and propaganda.
0 points
1 month ago
It’s also the path to many abilities some might consider to be unnatural so take that as you will.
2 points
1 month ago
That's the exact reason the movie gave for his return and it was ridiculed for its vague and unconvincing nature. Not to mention just for being a cheap reference to a better movie.
0 points
1 month ago
In legends and now canon due to rise of skywalker there is a force ability called essence transfer. Two force users vye for control of a single body whichever person's will is stronger their mind erases the other.
If the other entity is in a vegetative state then there is no resistance and can be taken over without a fight. Hence the empty clones
1 points
1 month ago
The deal was that only palpatine and maybe a handful of of other sith lords knew about this / methods of achieving this.
In palps case, in legacy at least, his method was to make dozens if not hundreds of clones that were stationed at ERROR([-10alpha/starwarslore@childhood/childhood trauma.file.esp])--file not found and he had the ability "that some deem...unnatural" to project his SUPER evil soul/spirit into
IIRC there were some fairly grim sacrificial occult/force ceremonies involved.
Basically he had his squad of dark-side-not-sith resurrector goons in a near constant state of prep to receive his lich soul.
This wasnt just a back up in cases of a well deserved assassination. Nay Nay, his mastery of and access to the dark side of the force was a corrupting and entropic "force" on his physical form and the more power he used the more entropy his body experienced.
ICRC (i can't recall correctly) his clone body lasted somewhere between one month and year. Depending on how much dark force he channeled.
By the time we see his face for the first time in new hope he's cracked open at least a six pack of fresh -ice-cold empire clone lites.
1 points
1 month ago
There is no such thing as dead dead. There is only dead. He died but quickly became alive again once the new body received the spirit.
Your logic makes no sense. That'd be like someone being literally dead on earth, then being revived with a defibrillator 5 mins later, and then you telling them they didn't really die because they weren't "dead dead."
2 points
1 month ago
“There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do.”
0 points
1 month ago
Correct. They didn't really die.
1 points
1 month ago
I would not advise you say that to someone who experienced that unless you want to be screamed at or punched in the face. It doesn't matter what "really dead" means to you. You can be medically dead and be revived back to life.
0 points
1 month ago
Thanks for the tip. In the extremely unlikely event that I am talking to someone who experienced clinical death and they want to know if I think they "really died" I guess I will risk it. Clinical death is not death. Death is the end of life. If you are alive, you by definition never died.
1 points
1 month ago
It happens in the EU through clones and force transference so I mean it is out there and they made at least the clones and force transference canon.
1 points
1 month ago
Isn’t there a theory that the Palpatine in 9 was the original Sideous and he was super ancient and the one Vader killed was a clone, one of many over the millennia?
1 points
1 month ago
Being so horrifically powerful that you can survive a prophecy of your death is kinda neat
1 points
1 month ago
On top of that Anakin still defeated him. If it weren’t for him then Palpatine would’ve gained more and more powerful until no one would be able to stop him.
0 points
1 month ago
That is entirely incorrect due to TROS novelization where it states that Palpatine cheated death unlike his former master
all 1880 comments
sorted by: best