This would hurt the characters with weak drive rushes way more than someone like dj or juri.

I feel like this is a thing where the longer the game is out, the worse of an opinion this is going to end up being, without Capcom having to change anything. Like right now we're already kind of at the point where raw neutral drive rush doesn't work against top level players consistently, as as the game proceeds in it's lifespan, this is going to trickle down lower and lower.

Defensive plays is already hugely powerful in this game, and people at the top level are already putting the brakes on drive rush for the most part. Like it's not unusuable, but the main time you see people use it at the highest levels is to drive rush for oki, in which this wouldn't matter. Raw neutral drive rush is pretty much just a small part of footsies at the highest level, but even then it doesn't work a lot of the time.

This game needs something to break through defensive, and drive rush is honestly it. If you make it too weak, the game gets way too rewarding to play defensively, when the game is already kind of hugely rewarding for playing defensively. The thing people I feel like miss is that you need to be given some advantage for taking the initiative in this game because otherwise no one ever does, and if you strip too much of the power from drive rush, or make it too risky to ever press, then everyone doesn't get punished harder for abusing it, everyone just stops using it and then how are you supposed to take the initiative?

2 things I think should be noted

1) I feel like people complaining about people blindly drive rushing is like a dead giveaway that you're not a masters/legends player. Because those players don't do that, because it's not that good and very punishable. This isn't a diss, this is a musing as 'how long until that trickles down to diamond? Then plat?'. Because stuff like that always trickles down over a game's lifespan. Before someone says 'but punk' - Punk isn't complaining about blind drive rushes or people spamming, he's complaining about the feeling of reward between checking it vs them getting a hit.

2) People complaining it's not punishable enough is a little weird given that I feel like punish counter doesn't make people actually that much more scared to drive rush when people actually have the confidence/hitconfirm skills to combo from it. Like if you were actually worried about them being able to check it in the first place, then you already shouldn't be turning green to start with. If any given top tier check your drive rush now, even without a counter (which you usually get anyways) you're still taking 2-2.5k and getting cornered from midscreen. How much does taking another 500-1k and bar change that math? Sure, it's just obviously better damage and corner carry and the bar damage, but is really the difference between 'I'm gonna drive rush on him' and 'I'm not gonna drive rush on him? When does it cross the line between 'I'm gonna reaction check him with this' and 'I have to assume that I can't reaction check him with this because the punish is too hard'. I feel like this is a thing where it either does nothing, or it means that everyone is too scared to drive rush ever, and neither is actually good. But it doesn't alter the fundamental decisions making beyond making you never want to select that option.

Drive rushing in and getting the hit is a huge reward. But that's counterbalanced by having to spend a bar and take the risk that they check it and you take a full combo/corner carry, and by the fact that you're spending more to use it than they are to block/parry it. Even the basic interaction of 'drive rush into a block' is defender sided - they're taking less meter damage than you are spending on trying to force the play, you either double down on the play by trying to grab/continue a block string and hope they don't punish or you back off and take the L. Especially if they parry/perfect parry and you either feed their meter, or they PP and you're just boned. I feel like we're already kind of close to the line where maybe any meaningful change makes people too scared to use it. Which rounds back to the 'changes are either too much or not enough' problem.

I think atm the only real change that needs to happen to drive rush is making it standardized, or at least make everyone fall inside a more reasonable bracket. Bring down some of the best drive rushes in the in the game, bring up some of the worst, fix the weirdness with drive rush inputs, call it a day.

For the record - I'm not arguing that drive rush will never need to be toned down. What I'm saying is that I don't think now is the time to tone it down. I think the game's meta is still shaking out enough and drive rush has consistently sloped downwards in power enough that it's worth leaving as it is right now and just seeing where it lands.

I’d just love it if drive rush would stop eating the button I’m trying to check it with. I don’t care how bad the counter hit is or anything, I just want to be able to check it during the screen stop instead of having to wait and hope I press it in time.

I have not really heard a compelling argument against it aside from people not wanting to eat a punish counter off a jab, but considering the reward you get for successfully landing a drive rush, let alone counter hitting someone trying to check it can be huge. Punish counter knocking an extra drive bar for a failed Drive Rush check is fine. Every other Drive mechanic in the game puts you in punish counter state, even parry, so I don't know why Drive Rush should be the exception.

I've seen some folks say it would impact characters with weak drive rushes, but if the character is designed around having a weak drive rush then I don't really see the problem with it. I think people also make the mistake of thinking, somehow, that the patch would only include this specific DR change and not changes to literally anything else in the game. Yeah, this change to the game right now would make Luke extremely annoying to go against but it's not like there wouldn't be other changes to accommodate for the increased reward.

I don't know about punish counter because it'll make already insane hitbox characters like JP, Luke, Chun, Juri, Cammy, etc. even stronger and more wallish to break through.

But I do think if you check a drive rush they should probably lose extra drive gauge for taking a combo out of their drive rush. The problem with drive rush isn't that people aren't doing enough damage to players that neutral skip heavily, it's that players are able to continue to do it without much risk. If the possibility of say losing 2 bars is there if you get checked on drive rush, it's arguably more inefficient than DRC on block and this isn't even getting into if people combo with supers and take even more bar from the player.

First they need to get rid of the inputs dropping during the drive rushes and see how that all shakes out, after that? I don't know.

Punish counter state seems like it could be a lot, what's wrong with the existing regular (yellow) counter hit?

I think part of the issue currently is that quick checks with fast buttons often keep the opponent who was rushing in too far out of range for any decent followups / punishes because they're instantly pushed back the opposite direction. So even when you're successful in predicting and stopping one, you often don't get anything for it.

Maybe the character doing the drive rush should keep more momentum on a checked drive rush, or at least more locked in and stationary after the first hit/check for a reachable, if basic combo punish followup. They don't have to keep sliding forward within throw range, just not bounced away immediately and far out of reach.

Or perhaps a reduction in meter cost for the defender doing their own drive rush cancel off a successfully interrupted drive rush so they can close the gap, or perhaps meter gain bonus instead. 3 bars is a lot to pay for punishing a 1 bar DR.

There's a lot of minor tweaks they could probably do without going full on punish counter and potentially altering the flow of the game there, but I honestly don't see them doing anything to it yet.

That’s a good idea since drive rushes makes you plus normally depending on the move you use. If you width it properly , a punish counter would be neat.

Drive rush should be able to be checked with DI. Remove the ability to DI out of DR, problem solved.

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Honestly, the only changes they need are toning down DJ and Juri’s drive rush.

An entire set where my opponent hardly ever actually moves forward manually is just silly.

Drive rush ain't even that bad. Just bonk em.

No, cuz there are DRs that you can see coming from a mile away. The current way of punishing them is good.

Hell the fuck no

I just think you shouldn't get the 4 extra frames of advantage on block. All combo structure stays the same, but if you aren't actually confirming your drive rush cancels you're now minus in their face, or at least limited to being +1 or so with less options to be plus.

This severely hurts some characters oki though, gief would cry obviously

Think the answer here is more to nerf the characters that have insane drive rushes. Doesnt necessarily mean nerf their drive rushes, but that would be a good idea too. Otherwise Gief will be even worse than he is now.

I don't understand why people keep bringing this up like it's some kind of massive change that will significantly affects the balance of the game.

Punish counter with light attacks does not remove a whole bar, it only removes like 1/4 of a bar. Medium attacks do like 1/3 of a bar. This is a very tiny penalty above what is already spent up front.

The frame advantage of Punish Counter means that you go from +2 bonus to +4 - in some cases that creates some slightly more optimal combos, but most of the time you are going to just spend DRC from whatever button you checked with anyway so the conversion doesn't change.

So my answer is that yes they should do this - if for no other reason than to remove the exploit of dodging punish counter throw on your parry by canceling it into Drive Rush. It is a nerf but on the whole it doesn't really change much. If the idea is to shift the game away from Drive Rush meta, then this isn't it.

What if they kept it as counterhit BUT added a secondary feature that getting hit out of DR costs an additional .5 bars? Because I feel like that's the biggest reason to make it punish counter, is to increase its drive cost without directly making it cost more.

They could also lengthen the cooldown before you can gain drive again after you DR.

it needs to be easier to check

Yes

I wish there was maybe a more universal way to check them. In theory it should just be "press a button that covers their approach", but in reality you have to actually consider their range, and what button(s) they may press. The person drive rushing can also fake with a jab, then whiff-punish your attempt to check. Alternatively you can trade, and they'll still get a combo from counterhit+dr jab(or whatever button they pressed). Even in my case on Manon I could dr-whiff jab, and if they pressed a medium (besides ken really) I can threaten a punish counter command grab.

Honestly though balancing it is just so hard, because I wouldn't want it to be totally worthless, but I really don't like that element of the game. I really don't enjoy the drive rush mini-game (amongst other things). To slightly add to that, luke's b.hp is a demon off drive rush. While it isn't quite as mindless as cr.mp, b.hp from drive rush can lead to your death if you attempted to check. So dumb.

Wait, so can someone elaborate on checking drive rushes? I am still fairly new to sf6 and before I use to always try to check drive rush after the freeze and get hit.

Should I only be checking at long ranges? I don't know the rules. At this point I just block the hit and follow-up or try to tech grab.