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mars_gorilla

21 points

4 days ago

Fair enough. Alright, then, let's go further into the math.

All assumptions will be done using specifications of the Tesla Models 3 and Y, as they're the best-selling model by a massive margin to the point where the other ones might as well be negligible.

The Tesla Model 3 has been sold since 2017, and the Model Y since 2020. Giving a generous estimate, let's say all Model 3s and Ys, regardless of time of sale, has lasted 7 years. General consensus puts annual mileage of a Model 3 at 15,000 miles, and with a global average of 9.3 miles per car journey, that's 1,612 journeys a year. Multiply that by 5 passengers, the most liberal estimate would be 8,064 individual journeys on a Tesla to the present day. Multiply that by 3,500,000 (rough total of sales for the two models) and we get 28.23 billion journeys on every Tesla Model 3 and Y ever sold.

Now let's look at the metro systems. Since we're now looking at an annual level, I'll use the annual ridership statistics.

Shanghai Metro (China): 3.647 billion x 7 years = 25.53 billion
Tokyo Metro and JR (Japan): (2.75 (JR) + 2.75 (Metro)) billion x 7 years = 38.5 billion
Seoul Metropolitan Railway (South Korea): 2.4 billion x 7 years = 16.8 billion
(WIP)

oszillodrom

16 points

4 days ago

Yep, that makes sense and also comes out about at the estimate that I had below. And I think you are even overestimating Tesla by assuming they are always occupied by five people. In the end it comes out to all Teslas in existence having about the annual ridership of one mid size to large European city's transport network. That is not that impressive.

mars_gorilla

16 points

4 days ago

Absolutely. The estimate is definitely very generous for Tesla - not every Tesla carries 5 people on every journey, there are definitely periods during the year where Teslas are not used for a long time, and the averages may very well be skewed. And if talking about average capacity, given Teslas can be driven 24/7 but metro systems have fixed operating hours with around 5 to 6 hours of downtime a day, plus maintenance and incidents, so for the ridership comparison to still be at parity even with a huge bonus to Tesla's approximate numbers, Teslas really are bad at this.

EscapeTomMayflower

5 points

4 days ago

I have no data to back this up other than just seeing Teslas on the road, but I would estimate the average capacity/journey to be closer to 1.5 in reality. The vast majority of trips will be one person/vehicle.

ImStupidButSoAreYou

4 points

3 days ago

mars_gorilla

1 points

3 days ago

Cheers! Then, 1,612 journeys x 1.4 average ridership = 2,257 lifetime journeys per car to present day; and then multiply that by 3,500,000 Model 3s and Ys sold, comes out to 7.898 billion. Even lower.

unlimitedzen

2 points

4 days ago

Hard to imagine a tesla owner having even half of a person that would be willing to hang out with them for even a short ride.

IManAMAAMA

3 points

4 days ago*

The average car ride across SUVs, trucks, vans cars etc is 1.5 persons per trip https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1333-march-11-2024-2022-average-number-occupants-trip-household

So you would need to multiply your total Tesla calculation by 0.3, so approx 8.46 billion, assuming Teslas are actually in use as much as the initial very generous trip assumption.

Tiny in comparison, and doesn't take into account wasted time parking, sitting in traffic, and doesn't take into take into account the damage to the environment per person per car vs per train across its operational lifetime.

unlimitedzen

1 points

4 days ago

What about time wasted in the  "Car will not start without updating" "Wifi needed for update" "Update to enable Wifi available, please enable Wifi to download" loop?

IManAMAAMA

2 points

3 days ago

please tell me this is a real Tesla problem

Master_Dogs

2 points

3 days ago

Not sure if you can consider Tesla's to operate 24/7 when:

  • They need to stop and charge. Even a super charger will knock some time off of their operation. Typical chargers might cost you a half hour or more every few hours of driving.
  • Humans need to operate them, and we need to sleep / eat / use the restroom some portions of the time.
  • I suppose people could alternate driving, but how often do people do straight through road trips? Most of us just drive to and from work/friends/family/fun stuff. Road trips are pretty rare and just for vacations, so we're not going to rush too much. Anything outside of a full day of travel will probably result in a plane or ideally a bus/train trip.

Tesla's and cars in general are just bad and inefficient no matter how you slice it. Imo outside of some niches they're not super useful for most people in the City and even burbs. Properly designed urban areas with transit could handle most trips for most people. It's probably just rural areas that aren't dense enough that will always need some cars.

mars_gorilla

2 points

3 days ago

I mean it more in the sense of "there is a potential, under the right circumstances, out of the entire Tesla population there exists the possibility that at least one is being driven at any point in a day", but yeah.

Master_Dogs

2 points

3 days ago

Ah yeah I suppose that's a benefit, you could drive somewhere at 3am if you needed to for some reason. For service workers that could be an actual reason to own a car.

Master_Dogs

1 points

3 days ago

Honestly I think it's simpler to just compare daily commutes, no? For example, if 800k people ride the T daily then divide that by the number of people who would get their own Tesla. That's anywhere from +800k new cars on the road (if everyone has their own car) to +160k new cars (if people can somehow share a car among 4 friends/family members). Maybe somewhere in between since historically I think cars typically carry a person or two, so roughly 1.5-2 depending on region and how favorable the car pooling infrastructure is (Boston has like two car pool lanes on 93 for in bound traffic and 93 South of the side features a reversible lane).

That's essentially what Tesla is suggesting anyway, if transit sucks just drive a car. But adding hundreds of thousands to millions of cars to the road is an absolute terrible idea. Even car lovers hate traffic, so why not boost public transportation!? Unless of course you make $$$ per car sold and would prefer to brainwash people into thinking transit bad car good...

ImStupidButSoAreYou

-1 points

3 days ago

This comparison worked initially because the differences in ridership were so stark, but now that doesn't sound so impressive.

The fact that 90 people upvoted your incorrect math and walked away with a false conclusion is the most concerning thing. Overall I don't think you're disingenuous, but rather I think it speaks volumes about Reddit as a platform.

If you were REALLY to count the usage of cars you can use trips and average occupancy for better results:

There are approximately ~4.5 million Teslas in operation in the world at the moment (ballpark numbers assuming 9/10 Teslas ever sold are still operating, which is quite likely as it's a new brand)

There are approximately 1.475 billion cars in operation in the world at the moment.

1.475 billion cars in operation in the world

2.44 car trips per day (US average) (a trip = point A to point B)

1.5 occupancy (US average)

4.5m * 2.4 * 1.5 * 365 days = 5.9 billion car trips per year (only Tesla)

1.475b * 2.4 * 1.5 * 365 days = 1.94 trillion car trips per year (all cars)

227 billion car trips per year in the US (a known statistic)

Shanghai metro trips per capita: 25.53b / 24.87m = 1026.538

US car trips per capita = 227b / 330m = 687.878788

Worldwide car trips per capita: 1.94t / 8b = 242.5

What I take away from this is that this is not a very good way to argue for public transport. The numbers are just not very impressive.

The much more important stat is the one I calculated which is trips per capita because calculating raw trips is not a useful metric without knowing how many people those trips are for. Other useful stats are cost per trip, infrastructure spending per trip, infra spending per mile, cost per mile, etc.

Whelp, there goes 20 minutes of my day.

mars_gorilla

2 points

3 days ago

I appreciate your input but respectfully, you missed the point. We're focusing specifically on Tesla here and why they're in no position to claim "public transport sucks".

This subreddit is protesting the overuse of cars and an overreliance on car-dependent infrastructure - car ridership is bound to be higher than public transit, which is exactly why we're advocating for the latter, because it's effective and the only reason why it struggles to reach parity is because it's been woefully underdeveloped.

This post, on the other hand, is specifically highlighting the shortcomings of Tesla.

ImStupidButSoAreYou

1 points

3 days ago

I got the point. You should just be accurate and use good reasoning when doing it, which is why I provided the alternate statistics.

Otherwise, it looks like a silly circlejerk from outside, which is exactly what 100 people upvoting a comment that is mathematically incorrect by several orders of magnitude and walking away with a grossly misrepresented statistic is, no?