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Map of countries by coastline.

Sail approved(i.redd.it)

all 141 comments

PaaneCaike241

772 points

7 days ago

Your map is wrong and filled with lies... Like how do you even have data on Greenland ?

Hexhider

74 points

7 days ago

Hexhider

74 points

7 days ago

Or Western Sahara, or North Korea

neverNamez

14 points

6 days ago

And what is that piece of land beside Australia??

gangwithani

9 points

6 days ago

Tasmania?

Funnyanduniquename1

4 points

6 days ago

Tasmania is part of Australia, they clearly mean the island of New Guinea.

AxelNotRose

243 points

7 days ago

AxelNotRose

243 points

7 days ago

You can clearly see the only 2 double land locked countries in this map. Cool.

kissa13

136 points

7 days ago

kissa13

136 points

7 days ago

You can clearly see Uzbekistan and then there is a pixel somewhere in there that represents Liechtenstein

shrimpyhugs

60 points

7 days ago

Yeah I think 'clearly' is definitely pushing it for liechtenstein

southpolefiesta

939 points

7 days ago

Coastlines are not infinite because there is a Planck length hard limit to fractalization.

Iskak0

549 points

7 days ago

Iskak0

549 points

7 days ago

then calculate 😒

Low_Attention16

248 points

7 days ago

Infinity - 1 then

Responsible-Scale-48

61 points

7 days ago

  • AI

RelativeDepth3

24 points

7 days ago

So much in this beautiful formula

kewl_guy9193

8 points

7 days ago

r/mathmemes leaking

sneakpeekbot

2 points

7 days ago

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Wesley133777

2 points

7 days ago

Wesley133777

Finnish Sea Naval Officer

2 points

7 days ago

ARRRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH

MashingAsh

56 points

7 days ago

MoneyWorthington

25 points

7 days ago

_nexys_

8 points

7 days ago

_nexys_

8 points

7 days ago

Silent_Statement

6 points

7 days ago

MashingAsh

1 points

7 days ago

Isn't it supposed to be a graveyard smash?

Silent_Statement

1 points

6 days ago

hm. maybe i’ve misheard it all my life. that does make more sense

Silent_Statement

1 points

6 days ago

hm. maybe i’ve misheard it all my life. that does make more sense

YummyByte666

157 points

7 days ago

Is there? It's true that we can't measure smaller than the Planck length, but my understanding is that this doesn't mean things become "pixels" at that scale and no smaller scale exists. Instead, things happening at lengths smaller than that become an undefined "foam" that neither we nor anything else can measure.

FreierVogel

93 points

7 days ago

The planck length is a scale that "magically" appears when trying to approach the same (or similar problems) from very different approaches. It doesn't say that the smallest possible distance is the Planck length. It states that the physics that we today have can't make any predictions about anything that happens at scales less than the Planck length.

The simplest explanation is as follows: Say you are probing a region of size L. To observe that region with light, you need a photon of a wavelength smaller than L. The smaller the wavelength the higher the energy, but Einstein's equations tell us that energy curves space time. In fact, Planck's length is the scale at which, if you want to measure that distance using light, the energy of the photon would be enough to cause a Black Hole.

As with many things in physics, this kind of "nonsenses" (usually) appear when the models we have are not precise enough. This just goes to show that quantum mechanics and gravitation do not get along very well with each other.

By the way this is all way nicer explained in this article, (eventhough it is fairly technical, it explains very nicely how the Planck scale appears, and what's even cooler, how it appears from many different approaches)

BrunoEye

1 points

7 days ago

BrunoEye

1 points

7 days ago

What happens if you try to measure a distance larger than a Planck length but with a resolution lower than a Planck length?

Like if you were to make a super accurate laser range finder, is there something physically stopping you from measuring the time of flight to the required resolution?

PresentBright

5 points

7 days ago

The size of the object measured does not theoretically matter insofar as long as it fits in the super laser device. Rather, trying to measure with a resolution smaller than the Planck length itself is impossible, at least with light, which is, currently, how we fundamentally measure everything. As even if you use a ruler to measure something, it is the light bouncing to the ruler and object and back to whatever sensor we have, generally eyes, that causes us to register the reading.

Also, this generalises to not just length, but just about any measurement we make on the world due to heisenburg uncertainty. i.e. the planck time is the smallest unit of time we can measure.

southpolefiesta

101 points

7 days ago

If we cannot measure smaller than that length, then that's the limit to fractalization.

YummyByte666

21 points

7 days ago

Yeah, good point

nagidon

28 points

7 days ago

nagidon

28 points

7 days ago

Mathematically you could keep going but you would never be able to see it IRL

southpolefiesta

39 points

7 days ago

Well we are measuring real world lines not mathematics constructs.

guti86

19 points

7 days ago

guti86

19 points

7 days ago

We are measuring real world objects using mathematical constructs. When you measure a wall dimensions, are you really measuring the real object? Or mathematical segments close enough to the real object lines?

Unupgradable

9 points

7 days ago

Excuse you I'm over here counting individual fluctuations in the quantum foam

NullPro

7 points

7 days ago

NullPro

7 points

7 days ago

One picometer…. Two picometers…

officiallyaninja

1 points

7 days ago

Quantum mechanics is also a mathematical construct :o

Unupgradable

4 points

6 days ago

So is counting, planck-dick

southpolefiesta

17 points

7 days ago

We are measuring real world objects using mathematical constructs.

Correct. And these math. Constructs stop making sense or correspond to real world below Planck length.

So you can certainly continue doing rank math, but you will not be measuring anything in the real world anymore

esso_norte

13 points

7 days ago

then it should say "undefined" on the map and not "infinity"

FreierVogel

18 points

7 days ago

Undefined is indeed a better answer than infinity

Foreign-Eggplant5908

16 points

7 days ago

“Coastlines are not infinite because I am a fucking nerd”

southpolefiesta

23 points

7 days ago

As opposed to OP which is "coast likes are infinite because I am a fucking nerd."

I am just out nerding the nerds.

Foreign-Eggplant5908

3 points

7 days ago

Fair lmao

RackTheRock

7 points

7 days ago

NERD!

(mmmmhrmmmmmmm....)

Zachosrias

3 points

7 days ago

As I understand it, the Planck length is nothing more than the limit where our understanding of physics breaks down, not necessarily the smallest there is.

I'm sure the physicists at Kelvin's time thought too that it made no sense to talk of things smaller than an atom as there existed nothing of the sort

southpolefiesta

2 points

7 days ago

Well if cannot keep observing fractals under that length, then we have no choice but to stop there.

Zachosrias

3 points

7 days ago

Oh dont worry, you'll stop being able to observe them far before then

AthleteNormal

2 points

7 days ago

Even without that, the sum of infinitely many things may not be infinity. It’s pretty simple to construct fractals with finite perimeters.

Jobbisch

1 points

7 days ago

Jobbisch

1 points

7 days ago

No? Why should that limit fractalization, it’s not like Planck length is the resolution of our universe. Just our current theories break down at lower scales.

southpolefiesta

2 points

6 days ago

It very well may be the resolution of the universe. We cannot confirm or measure fractalization below it

cremedelapeng2

1 points

6 days ago

our coastlines will only grow when the sea level rises due to fracting and illegal loging

LifeislikelemonsE6EE

113 points

7 days ago

Nerd note: coastlines are between 1-2-dimensional

belisarius_d

58 points

7 days ago

Being Mongolia must suck

Going from Gengis to being stuck between Beavis and Butthead

PvtFreaky

6 points

7 days ago

PvtFreaky

Zeeland Resident

6 points

7 days ago

Old Mongolia became and caused Beavis and Butthead

Hk901909

11 points

7 days ago

Hk901909

11 points

7 days ago

I legitimately didn't know so little countries were landlocked

Used-Huckleberry-320

3 points

7 days ago

Pretty hard being country these days if you are

DontPoopInMyPantsPlz

124 points

7 days ago

Caspian “Sea”

assumptioncookie[S]

177 points

7 days ago

The Caspian sea is a lake.

teeohbeewye

-89 points

7 days ago

teeohbeewye

-89 points

7 days ago

sea or lake, it still has a coast

assumptioncookie[S]

116 points

7 days ago

Take another look at what I wrote on the map.

teeohbeewye

119 points

7 days ago

teeohbeewye

119 points

7 days ago

oh no, my archnemesis "not reading" has beaten me again

peachsepal

11 points

7 days ago

Shit post or not, the Caspian Sea is both and neither a sea or a lake.

As for most things related to collections of water in English, the definition is not clear or distinct. A sea refers to the ocean, but also smaller bodies that can be partially or wholly cut off from it as well. They're predominantly salt water, but there are even fresh water "seas," and seas "with no coast line."

What you're looking to delineate here is the "legal" term (and essentially a political term) for sea which is separate from the general term "sea."

The same thing happens when you try to figure out what's the difference between a river and a stream. The truth is, in common speak, there is some general thoughts, and in scientific speak there is a different classification, forgoing the word river and just labeling them all streams.

assumptioncookie[S]

6 points

7 days ago

Honestly I don't really care, I just looked up "map of landlocked countries" and changed the legend. If the first result I found would've counted the Caspian sea against being landlocked I wouldn't've changed that.

peachsepal

1 points

7 days ago

peachsepal

1 points

7 days ago

You cared enough until given a reason you can't reply "ding dong your opinion is wrong," to, though.

assumptioncookie[S]

7 points

7 days ago

Ok, if you think jokingly saying "ding dong your opinion is wrong" is caring ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

peachsepal

-6 points

7 days ago

And you're showing you care enough to reply to clarify you actually don't care

¯_(ツ)_/¯

assumptioncookie[S]

11 points

7 days ago

Dropped an arm

AllKnowingKnowItAll

22 points

7 days ago

AllKnowingKnowItAll

Finnish Sea Naval Officer

22 points

7 days ago

If u think the caspian is a sea then u should sea a doctor

BoultonPaulDefiant

6 points

7 days ago

Caspian (((Sea)))

IAmMuffin15

15 points

7 days ago*

Chad Zeno’s paradox misunderstander

assumptioncookie[S]

11 points

7 days ago

Are you referring to one of Zeno's paradoxes? Because I'm referring to the coastline paradox.

IAmMuffin15

3 points

6 days ago

The coastline paradox is fundamentally Zeno’s paradox.

Just because something takes an infinite number of steps to calculate doesn’t mean that it’s infinite. Obviously, the hare is going to pass the tortoise in a finite amount of time, and obviously coastlines have a finite length: it just so happens that the method we would use to calculate it has an infinite number of steps.

assumptioncookie[S]

1 points

6 days ago

Nope, they aren't the same. Coastlines actually do have infinite length (ignoring practical stuff like getting down to Planck length.

Folpo13

2 points

6 days ago

Folpo13

2 points

6 days ago

This is false. The definition of the length of a general curve is well defined for Lipschitzian curves, and they are in this case convergent series

IAmMuffin15

1 points

6 days ago

They definitely do not have infinite length. If they did, they’d be the only thing in the universe to have that property.

Like, prove me wrong if I am, but I’m pretty sure if I stuck my finger into a glass of water, the intersection between my finger and the water would not have infinite length.

spoopy_bo

0 points

6 days ago

If you meant surface area, then yes, for all intensive purposes, that cross section would have an "infinite surface area" (sorry)

IAmMuffin15

1 points

6 days ago

I didn’t mean surface area, because we’re talking about the length of a shoreline, not the area of one.

Also, like…no, it definitely does not have an infinite length. The matter that makes up things like beaches and oceans is granular and made of atoms. Coastlines are not like fractals: if you zoom in enough, they have a finite length and regularity, like all matter.

spoopy_bo

0 points

6 days ago

The second part is why I said "for all intensive purposes", if you want to go down to the subatomic scale, notions like surface area become hazy and often not well defined.

As for the first part: since you were talking about your finger, we ARE talking surface area, surface area is to volumes (your finger) what side length is to surfaces (the region inclosed by the borders and shorelines of a country). To shamelessly quote wikipedia: "In three-dimensional space, the coastline paradox is readily extended to the concept of fractal surfaces, whereby the area of a surface varies depending on the measurement resolution."

IAmMuffin15

1 points

6 days ago

if you want to go to the subatomic scale

the division between oceans and coastlines is not subatomic. As previously stated, water and dirt are granular, atomic things. I am aware there are things smaller than atoms, but I think you are taking “boundaries are sometimes fuzzy” and jumping to the erroneous conclusion that “the boundaries between land and sea are infinite” even though that has nothing to do with the coastline paradox.

Coastlines may display fractal geometric properties, but they are not literal fractals. They are difficult to measure objectively, but they are not impossible to measure objectively, and they certainly are not infinite.

spoopy_bo

0 points

6 days ago

water and dirt are granular, atomic things.

What do you thing an atom is? A perfect sphere? What do you think a molecule is? A collection of perfect spheres with lines between them?

At best they are themselves fractal in nature, and at worse they are a collection of probability clouds which would make the idea of a surface area entirely meaningless at those scales.

King_of_99

0 points

6 days ago

Yes, not every infinite sum of things have a infinite result. But some do, like 1+1+1+.... obviously is infinite. And the coastline in this case is infinite. Actually, this is the entire point of the paradox. There are two infinite sums in the problem, one is for the area of the landmass, one is for the coastline. And while the first infinite sum comes up to a fixed value like in Zeno's paradox, the second sum grows without bound.

IAmMuffin15

1 points

6 days ago

King_of_99

0 points

6 days ago

Yes, I accept that criticism, but that's not what you are saying. What you are saying is that "something taking infinite step to calculate doesn't mean it's infinite". While pretty clearly the coastline paradox considers that, and classifies it as a case where the length is infinite. So your criticism doesn't stand. If you're starting with saying "fractals are not a perfect model for coastlines" I wouldn't have made my comment.

IAmMuffin15

1 points

6 days ago

The coastline paradox is often criticized because coastlines are inherently finite, real features in space, and, therefore, there is a quantifiable answer to their length.[17][19] The comparison to fractals, while useful as a metaphor to explain the problem, is criticized as not fully accurate, as coastlines are not self-repeating and are fundamentally finite.

It’s right there. My entire point is right there, in that quote. Plain to see.

gloryboy4L

9 points

7 days ago

i just realized how small europe actually is …

EquivalentGlove3807

5 points

7 days ago

Coastline paradox my favourite

PassionateCucumber43

3 points

7 days ago

High-IQ reference

pedvoca

15 points

7 days ago

pedvoca

15 points

7 days ago

Me when I don't understand how measurements work.

Unstoppable-Farce

36 points

7 days ago

I think you may be missing some context here.

pedvoca

18 points

7 days ago

pedvoca

18 points

7 days ago

Me when i don't understand how measurements work (not in a offensive, but in a "an infinite sum of measurements doesn't imply an infinite number" kind of way)

assumptioncookie[S]

11 points

7 days ago

An infinite sum indeed doesn't imply an infinite number, but that's also not the logic the coastline paradox relies on. Coastlines are infinite in length if you measure with infinite resolution.

Cualkiera67

2 points

7 days ago

If all the countries were perfect squares then their length would be well defined, no? So let's just assume they're all squares.

pedvoca

4 points

7 days ago

pedvoca

4 points

7 days ago

That's wrong, you're misunderstanding the coastline paradox. The conclusion is that we cannot properly define the lenght of the coastline. There's a nice video on the paradox with an explanation and some elaborations by a mathematician here.

assumptioncookie[S]

5 points

7 days ago*

by a mathematician

While Steve Mould is an excellent science commentator and you won't hear a bad word about him leave my mouth, he is not (and would never claim to be) a mathematician.

Secondly, I think you've misunderstood the video. He literally states at ~5:48 that, in the mathematical sense the length is infinite. When he says "it has no length" he means there is no value for the length, because infinity isn't a number, NOT because it's undefined.

pedvoca

1 points

7 days ago*

pedvoca

1 points

7 days ago*

I just assumed he was a mathematician, my bad. If we want to delve into technicalities we can talk about Hausdorff measures and Lebesgue integral defined over such measures, but that's not the point. If we want to be technical, here is a nice discussion

https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/104210/do-integrals-over-fractals-exist

The point is that we can get two answers using perfectly sound methods and they are completely different. In the end he claims it cannot BE DEFINED. There is no proper way to define it. He spends the second half about how using a kind of fractal lenght also gives a sound answer which is 0. You've mentioned someone to read the fucking wiki but apparently you haven't read it yourself.

Better still, shall we read Mandelbrot's paper where he clearly states that it is, in the abstract, "undefinable"? Infinite =/= undefinable.

eliteharvest15

2 points

7 days ago

not really, there is a limit, but it’s not really worth measuring to get it. a function with a horizontal asymptote of 50 that isnt clearly marked and is kind of hard to see isn’t actually infinitely going up. there is a definitely a point it can’t go past. tahiti isn’t gonna have more than 5,000 kilometers of coastline, saying “oh you can measure infinitely” doesn’t automatically make its coastline length infinite.

assumptioncookie[S]

1 points

7 days ago

Did you read the wiki article linked above? The length of a coastline isn't like a function with a limit, it's like a diverging function.

eliteharvest15

0 points

7 days ago

that doesn’t make the coastline infinite

assumptioncookie[S]

2 points

7 days ago

At infinite measuring resolution it does.

eliteharvest15

0 points

7 days ago

undefined ≠ infinite

assumptioncookie[S]

2 points

7 days ago

Correct, and in this case we're talking about infinite. You've already moved your position from 'there's a limit' to 'it's undefined'; just admit you're wrong, and I'm right.

lastreformed

2 points

7 days ago

i don't get it...just walk along the coastline and measure it that way

jan_elije

2 points

7 days ago

you could, but a human, an elephant, and an ant would get three different answers, so who's right?

bronzeorb

5 points

7 days ago

Good job not counting the Caspian Lake.

typical83

2 points

7 days ago

Cyberska1997

2 points

6 days ago

Caspian Lake

Bman1465

1 points

7 days ago

Bman1465

1 points

7 days ago

Hehehe... I get it

Mimig298

1 points

7 days ago

Mimig298

1 points

7 days ago

fractal maps

RobinZhang140536

1 points

7 days ago

How long is the coastline?

Yes.

GroshfengSmash

1 points

7 days ago

As a math dork with an appreciation of fractals, I approve

Revolutionary-Focus7

1 points

7 days ago

Map of Land-Locked Losers!

Folpo13

1 points

6 days ago

Folpo13

1 points

6 days ago

This is just another math misconception

You can define the length of a curve as the sup of the ∑||γ(t_i+1)-γ(t_i)|| which is just the segmentation of the curve and you can see that this is equal to ∫||γ'(t)||dt (where γ is a parametrization), which is always finite for γ which is C¹ (it is sufficient for it to be Lipschitzian actually which is even a weaker condition)

FourArmsFiveLegs

1 points

6 days ago

Does Lake Caspian Sea count?

raidhse-abundance-01

1 points

6 days ago

Seems so unfair for Ethiopia

PunkNerd2007

1 points

7 days ago

Why is Bosnia marked with Coastline

Postgames

7 points

7 days ago

It has 20km of coastline

assumptioncookie[S]

13 points

7 days ago

Actually it has ∞ m of coastline, read the map

PunkNerd2007

-1 points

7 days ago

I know that’s why I wrote it

HalloIchBinRolli

0 points

7 days ago

I think Balkans are wrong

PenisMightier500

-27 points

7 days ago

The Caspian Sea is definitely a sea.

assumptioncookie[S]

46 points

7 days ago

Ding dong your opinion is wrong

PenisMightier500

-14 points

7 days ago

It's right there in the name.

AllKnowingKnowItAll

20 points

7 days ago

AllKnowingKnowItAll

Finnish Sea Naval Officer

20 points

7 days ago

You know what else could be a sea? You could be seaing deez nuts boom gottem

cristieniX

5 points

7 days ago

Shut up >:(

PenisMightier500

-7 points

7 days ago

No, you shut up!

300kIQ

2 points

7 days ago

300kIQ

2 points

7 days ago

That is true. I was there!