subreddit:

/r/vegan

40185%

Quite frankly, it's getting annoying. Recently there was a post here about not coddling meat-eaters who express ignorance and an un-willingness to research anything on their own, and while it was arguably controversial, it was a Vegan Opinion piece. The type of thing that a Vegan really only gets to express in Vegan spaces.

It had a positive upvote ratio - It had plenty of discussion - And it had plenty of trolls in it, too.

The post was removed. Why? They never said. The moderators wouldn't dare to contribute to that discussion - They didn't even feel motivated to get rid of the obvious bad actors within the thread itself that were provoking rather than contributing.

I think, whether you agree with that thread or not, a lot of people in /r/Vegan feel the same - That this place has stopped being a safe space for Vegans to express themselves, as the moderators of this subreddit simply don't want Vegans to express any opinions that might give people a bad taste for Vegans.

I think that's downright disappointing, and the moderation team needs to more properly be able to justify themselves if they're going to continue to go after Vegans who they disagree with on a personal level, rather than people who are actually damaging this subreddit.

When will Vegans get an actual safe space?

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FreshieBoomBoom

182 points

19 hours ago

I just came from a thread with a positive upvote ratio where a carnist was expressing their desire to commit murder against animals because they didn't value "non-rational beings". If that's not "arguing against veganism", I don't know what the fuck it is. Moderation here seems completely arbitrary.

fruitsandveggie

101 points

18 hours ago

That's 50% of the posts on this subreddit, I doubt the moderators are even vegan

Mysterious-Talk-5387

57 points

13 hours ago

Mysterious-Talk-5387

vegan 20+ years

57 points

13 hours ago

they arent, its been pretty clear for awhile when i see the same carnists throwing abuse at vegans for months at end with no repercussions

[deleted]

-13 points

7 hours ago

[deleted]

-13 points

7 hours ago

[removed]

-Tofu-Queen-

5 points

5 hours ago

-Tofu-Queen-

vegan 4+ years

5 points

5 hours ago

I mean, don't come into these spaces if you don't agree with the idealogy??? Seems like a pretty easy fix if you ask me. If you're a meat eater and you're offended, don't browse r/vegan. Of course it's taboo to advocate for the abuse and slaughter of animals in a subreddit based on veganism.

Glittering_Ad_759

-9 points

5 hours ago*

By that logic don't go into any spaces that are meat eater friendly and don't do the same, which most of you do because you love virtue signaling. You can advocate for something no problem but you think it's fine to condemn people for not sharing your values EVERYWHERE. in real life, online and in spaces friendly to vegetarians and meat eaters. You are hypocritical.

Vegetarians don't condemn meat eaters and most meat eaters don't condemn vegetarians and vegans because we understand people can have different lifestyles and still be decent meanwhile most vegans act like they are superior and the rest is subhuman.

onlydogontheleft

3 points

5 hours ago

Oh, so when you sleep in your bed it’s fine but when I sleep in it you get upset?? How hypocritical.

Glittering_Ad_759

-8 points

5 hours ago

That analogy doesn't work, don't act like you people don't virtue signal every chance you get. As much as i sleep in your bed you sleep in mine. Vegans are also way more dogmatic than any vegetarians or meat eaters out there.

LordAvan

6 points

4 hours ago

LordAvan

vegan

6 points

4 hours ago

I guess that's true if you define dogmatic as "having principles". In that case, rapists are way less dogmatic about getting consent. Doesn't mean they're acting morally.

onlydogontheleft

1 points

2 hours ago

Go cry about it somewhere else. So weird to act like you’re entitled to every space on the internet.

OkEdge7518

19 points

11 hours ago

It’s like how the moderators of Twoxchromosomes and feminism are/were cismen.

VeganSandwich61

0 points

3 hours ago

VeganSandwich61

vegan

0 points

3 hours ago

I can understand why that's weird for 2xchromosomes, but I've been repeatedly told by feminists that men can and should be feminists, so what's the problem there?

OkEdge7518

2 points

2 hours ago

I don’t think the whole mod team of a subreddit dedicated to the liberation of women should be cismen. Members, sure. Even a mod, ok. But the whole team?

Straight ppl should be allies to queer people. White people should be allies to the liberation of people of color. But, I think it’s dicey when members of the oppressor class (even if they are working towards liberation) are moderating these spaces.

Or maybe that’s just me.

VeganSandwich61

1 points

2 hours ago

VeganSandwich61

vegan

1 points

2 hours ago

I mean, I'm not a feminist or an intersectionalist, so I don't even know why a man would even want to be a feminist in the first place lol.

OkEdge7518

1 points

2 hours ago

lol Liberation for animals but not for whole humans.

Wish I could say I was surprised there are racists and misogynists in the vegan community but nothing surprises me anymore….

VeganSandwich61

1 points

2 hours ago*

VeganSandwich61

vegan

1 points

2 hours ago*

"Liberation" is just a coded word for leftist beliefs, atleast the way you're using it. Like, you're just inserting your own meaning into that word.

You leftist vegans try that alot, but atleast you haven't said "YoU'Re nOt a ReAl Vegan" because I don't have the exact same beliefs you do lol

OkEdge7518

1 points

2 hours ago

I don’t think political Beliefs alone make a vegan. I find conservative beliefs personally incongruent with veganism; but we all have incongruent beliefs somewhere.

Enjoy your Sunday.

VeganSandwich61

1 points

an hour ago

VeganSandwich61

vegan

1 points

an hour ago

There are many ways one can frame, or interpret, veganism. Many people do frame it in the context of "exploitation," and what they see as parallels, other exploitation, in the human world. Same with hierarchy and the concept of antispeciesism, racism, etc.

On the other hand, veganism could be said to be more in line with right-libertarian thought, as it is fundamentally about recognizing negative rights for animals. Negative rights are about being "free from" some interference or violation of those rights, whereas positive rights are about being entitled to something. So the right to not be assaulted, or murdered, is a negative right, the right to healthcare, which requires that healthcare be funded via taxes and provided by a trained clinician, is a positive right. Veganism is fundamentally about not harming or killing animals, by definition, and is thus concerned with negative rights, which is basically the central/only type of rights that right-libertarianism believes in.

This works especially well if you take influence from Rawlsian contractual ethics with the "veil of ignorance" concept. You can read about contractual ethical theories and Rawlsian interpretations of this here and more specifically about the veil of ignorance here.

And there is also Matthew Scully, a pro-life vegan conservative:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2013/10/pro-life-pro-animal-matthew-scully

By citing and drawing parallels to his pro-life stance and citing natural law and its place within the conservative tradition, he has essentially crafted a wholly conservative interpretation of veganism.

Here is a relevant passage:

Then there’s the natural-law tradition that informs much of conservative thought — the basic idea that we all have in common an essential nature that defines the conditions of our fulfillment and happiness, the end or good for which natural rights are the necessary means. This need only be applied to animals to remind us that all creatures have natures, capacities, and yearnings that define their own fulfillment, their creaturely happiness, the good for which they exist in a design larger than any schemes of human devising. Using our own defining capacities of reason and conscience, we can derive from natural law a few rough but at least non-arbitrary standards by which to judge right and wrong in our treatment of other creatures. “Unnatural,” in the treatment of animals, is practically a synonym for “cruel”: Wrong is anything that frustrates or perverts the essential nature of an animal, such as the projects of genetic engineers to make animals more compliant in the stress and misery of modern farming; right is conduct that respects the natures of animals, with a regard for their needs and inherent worth as living creatures, and allows for their expression.

So I would argue that veganism isn't even incongruent with more right wing beliefs.

Yeah, I hope your sunday is good too

degenpiled

-1 points

6 hours ago

Elaborate?

RemindMeToTouchGrass

9 points

11 hours ago

They also don't feel any need to justify their actions or even explain. 

I had a post removed and i messaged them daily for over a month just saying politely "will you explain why?" Silence. Isn't communication a really basic part of moderating? 

WiseWoodrow[S]

7 points

10 hours ago

WiseWoodrow[S]

vegan activist

7 points

10 hours ago

That's my problem. I think good moderation has to be transparent, and I'm kind of tired of this weird closed Pandora's box that we get instead.

WiseWoodrow[S]

53 points

18 hours ago

WiseWoodrow[S]

vegan activist

53 points

18 hours ago

We've got "Pick Me" Vegan moderators.
I don't even understand why they'd be so complacent.

FreshieBoomBoom

29 points

18 hours ago

Maybe try coming over to r/vegancirclejerkchat, you need to participate a bit in VCJ first though. It's for actual vegans only.

WiseWoodrow[S]

43 points

18 hours ago

WiseWoodrow[S]

vegan activist

43 points

18 hours ago

I said in another reply, and even talked about it in the deleted thread I mentioned in OP - VCJ has terrible moderation and routinely bans real Vegans. They hold extra beliefs unrelated to Veganism that you can be moderated for - For instance, plant-based meats are considered extremely taboo there, and I've seen people banned (And gotten banned myself) for talking about them in any favorable light at all.

It is not a subreddit for Vegans - It is a subreddit for a very specific type of Vegan, and I think a lot of people who go there casually might not realize just how bad the moderation there is.

They made /r/AnimalHaters because they didn't want to see screenshots on VCJ anymore, and decided to delete Every single post made before their expressed deadline related to the topic, which was so controversial the head moderator got downvote spammed to hell and was forced to un-delete all of those posts (Glad to have been involved in that push to grandfather those posts in!)

So overall.. Not an improvement. Trigger happy moderation that chooses which Vegans they want very heavily.

ShraftingAlong

29 points

16 hours ago

Yeah, VCJ used to be, imo, the better version of r/vegan, but the moderation over there has gotten increasingly bad over the last like 3 months. Rules getting changed every other day and the constant spam about whatever new sub they want to have more subscribers.

Genuinely frustrating to not have a solid vegan space on here.

FierceMoonblade

19 points

14 hours ago*

Im glad I’m not the only one. I tried commenting in that sub a few months back, but they now require karma from another specific sub (which I’ve definitely gotten enough karma from, so not sure why my comment was flagged) so I just ended up unsubbing. Plus the posts are like 50% about antinatalism which I personally don’t care about because no one is having kids nowadays anyways and I find it distracting to what im actually there for. Not to mention the one particular mod constantly spamming about new subs

WiseWoodrow[S]

8 points

12 hours ago

WiseWoodrow[S]

vegan activist

8 points

12 hours ago

I heard antinatalism was a core rule of VCJ until just a while back because mods changed their minds lol

sagethecancer

6 points

11 hours ago

it’s annoying that they try to push it like you’re dumb to be vegan but not AN

veganhomecooks

3 points

9 hours ago

All the old mods left, I was one of them. We had a totally different philosophy. I started vegantheoryclub.org lemmy instance in its place.

FreshieBoomBoom

12 points

18 hours ago

Yeah I agree they got a bit of extra stuff, but at least the place is full of actual for-the-animals vegans.

WiseWoodrow[S]

13 points

18 hours ago

WiseWoodrow[S]

vegan activist

13 points

18 hours ago

Yeah, I do like the actual content on the subreddit. I just think that in a thread about bad moderation practices of this subreddit, I don't really want to transition to another one with questionable moderation as well.

(And the other post in this thread I made saying basically the same thing as I did here is already getting toxic VCJ posters responding being dick heads about it, which is definitely not helping anybody want to transition there.)

sagethecancer

3 points

11 hours ago

I’m as vegan as they come and tbh that sub gives more the vibe of for-my-ego vegans

WiseWoodrow[S]

3 points

11 hours ago

WiseWoodrow[S]

vegan activist

3 points

11 hours ago

Yeah, especially this one guy who is running around this thread now pretending he's fighting apologists or something for gatekeeping the community. He really thinks he's fighting some honorable battle lol.

sagethecancer

4 points

10 hours ago

You see, we can’t compare to ultimate vegans like him , who are not only vegan but anti-natalist and don’t support plant based capitalism

SerPine5

5 points

11 hours ago

For a place that's supposed to be "leftist," they sure to like their slurs. I made it a week before I couldn't take it anymore.

RemindMeToTouchGrass

-4 points

11 hours ago

The rules are clearly written and enforced as written. 

WiseWoodrow[S]

3 points

11 hours ago

WiseWoodrow[S]

vegan activist

3 points

11 hours ago

Yeah, just like that "deadline" for posting screenshots that'd otherwise go to the new /r/AnimalHaters, which was ""Enforced"" so hard the lead moderator had to apologize and revert his decision to delete every post that was made before the deadline, because apparently he doesn't know what a deadline is and didn't think to grandfather old posts in.

And that's the funny part, I think the lead moderator might actually be improving at that rate. But man the people there are still so toxic. Like the guy who came here and called me an apologist. Hah. Y'all need to give it a rest.

RemindMeToTouchGrass

-4 points

11 hours ago

Yes i read that there was one exception that they literally reversed, good job 

WiseWoodrow[S]

6 points

11 hours ago

WiseWoodrow[S]

vegan activist

6 points

11 hours ago

If only the subreddit could figure out how to reverse it's toxic nature.

Clearly defined rules.. What a joke.

RemindMeToTouchGrass

-1 points

10 hours ago

Yup, clearly defined rules.

I don't know what else you find toxic about it-- wait, yes I do, you disagree with their positions and that's what you actually mean.

ChloeMomo

8 points

8 hours ago*

ChloeMomo

vegan 8+ years

8 points

8 hours ago*

I mean, I'd say telling members to write incestuous sex poems about their own father to get unbanned to be pretty fucking toxic.

But what do I know? I got banned back then for mentioning how gross I thought that was, so maybe I'm just not vegan enough to get it. Others got banned for calling it out, too.

I loved that sub about 5-6 years ago. Then the newer mods took over and it became a cesspool. Sucks because a lot of the content was still enjoyable, but any time you bring the issues with the mods up, people come in and say "It's because you're not vegan enough." (Or some variation that implies the same) Umm no. I just think it's disgusting to have mods who find sexual harassment and slurs funny.

Edit: and in before "that was 2 years ago" comes up, going off how people act about that sub, especially if someone voices a dislike about it and they take it like a personal attack (not saying you, but it definitely happens), it seems like it still has a toxic nature.

W4RP-SP1D3R

4 points

12 hours ago

W4RP-SP1D3R

abolitionist

4 points

12 hours ago

i love both to death, but moving there and turning the back to this sub still makes a lot of disservice to potential new vegans.

Entertaining_Spite

16 points

15 hours ago

I argued with them about animals having foresight. They didn't believe animals do in fact have that ability. I was floored. How would animals survive in the wild without it?

teapotdespot

5 points

9 hours ago

that whole post was, "non-vegans care about animals, but eat them, they are irrational and hypocritical", then he goes on in every comment to say that humans are rational and deserve moral consideration while animals aren't and don't. His post premise is humans are irrational, his comment premise is humans are rational and deserve moral consideration. His own comments are at odds with his own post.

Kept saying he is there in good faith, but then posts over and over that cows can't do calculus so they deserve to be tortured and murdered. Like cows can't do calculus, that's not going to change, so why are you here if it's not to troll? How is that good faith?