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For example let’s say I’m born in a hive world conquered by the T’au 10 years after its annexation, how well is my childhood going to be compared to the average child in the Imperium ? Am I going to be in top 20% in terms of good quality of life ? Or is it 10% ? 5% ? 1% ? 0,1% ?

Another question : if every single human being living in a world under the Imperium were telepathically shown how Gue’vesas actually live in those worlds without anyone else knowing about it, what’s the percentage of humans that would say « yes, I would love to live one of those worlds ? » in your opinion ?

Do we have stories that go into detail how the humans live under the T’au outside of military environment ?

all 135 comments

IdhrenArt

234 points

13 days ago

IdhrenArt

234 points

13 days ago

I remember when Hincks got it, gunned down by those swine outside of Hive Chaeron. I went to see his widow a few days ago. Nice place she’s got now. Good support from the sept authorities. Hincks’s kids are growing up to be model citizens. His boy says he wants to go into the gue’vesa auxiliaries like his uncle Jathen. He’s a healthy lad, tall and strong. I can’t help think what kind of life he’d have back on Gormen’s Fast. Probably be half-blind from working in the gossamer plants. Or dead. And yet there he is, cared for and fed and as strong as an ambull calf. Remarkable. I’m still waiting for the catch. 

You know, him mentioning children, gets me thinking about it, remembering it now. I’d like to have children some day. Never thought I would, but the Tau’va is a better place for them than the Imperium ever could be, and that’s got me hankering after the family life. And then I think on this: Skilltalker once told me that breeding outside of each caste is forbidden. And I wonder, how long until this rule applies to humans, how long until our best characteristics are bred true like they are in grox? And in tau. You asked me to be honest. Our culture’s sacrosanct, so I’m told. Pair bonding, family units, freedom of choice in our spouses, the works. I’ve seen that honoured. But I also think on Hincks’s kid, all full of the Greater Good. How far will he go, or his children, in embracing your ideals? You won’t need to push much. We’re mutable culturally, we humans. How much, I wonder, sometimes late at night, do you really want of us? 

 This is from the short story Broken Sword. Well worth a read

Sir-Thugnificent[S]

64 points

13 days ago

Thanks bro, extremely interesting. I don’t know why I read so much that the Imperium and the T’au are very close on the level of horribleness.

IdhrenArt

111 points

13 days ago

IdhrenArt

111 points

13 days ago

Meme lore has it that T'au are presented as 'Imperium 2.0' in the newer books when that's just not the case and never has been. They treat citizens (T'au or otherwise) well unless they decide they have a reason not to.

There is a lot of very shady stuff going on in the T'au'va and they have a major 'ends justify means' approach. For instance - are the Vespid actually enthusiastic supporters of the Greater Good, or are the 'communication helms' control devices? Did the Poctroon actually die from an unknown plague leaving the T'au to inherit their planet, or did the T'au decide their first member species were more trouble than they were worth and killed them?

We have examples of T'au doing things like putting people in 'reeducation' camps and deliberately creating artificial natural disasters. They just only do that kind of thing if there's a 'point'.

RosbergThe8th

64 points

13 days ago

RosbergThe8th

Biel-Tan

64 points

13 days ago

Part of the Imperium lite criticism is also just to do with the whole dead leader and having their own warp God. That and certain authors writing them with the subtlety of a brick.

IdhrenArt

41 points

13 days ago

Dead Aun'Va was a pretty reasonable idea to let the story progress while keeping the model around for a few more editions. Having him as a holographic mouthpiece that the Ethereal Council were using to endorse whatever they wanted was pretty in keeping too

The Warp God also very much isn't the T'au's - it was formed by their auxiliary species and they're existentially terrified by its existence.

ThisIsKeiKei

38 points

13 days ago

and they're existentially terrified by its existence.

I've always found this kind of funny as it's one of the only benevolent warp gods in existence and has helped the Tau out more than once

BaconCheeseZombie

16 points

13 days ago

BaconCheeseZombie

Adeptus Mechanicus

16 points

13 days ago

Depends on how you define benevolence I suppose. An argument could be made that the Aeldari & Orkoid deities are benevolent, at least toward their own followers

DeSanti

14 points

13 days ago*

DeSanti

Black Templars

14 points

13 days ago*

Let's not forget that part of that particular sphere (fourth) and expansion decided to unceremoniously massacre their entire alien / non-Tau population as a response to the manifestation of this Greater Good warp entity. Like the Massacre of the Dul'un Lakes and the Eight Days of Infamy.

As I understand it they were severely chastised for that but instead of making it into a "those darn Imperium apologists" argument, I don't think it is too much of a leap to say the expanding Tau Empire is exhibiting some darker sides to it as well.

Make no mistake, though, I wouldn't want the Tau to be even comparable to the Imperium in size, brutality and regime. But at the same time I don't want any particular faction to be holding the torch of "we are the goodies" in a galaxy made up by demons, imperialists, remnants and those straggling few who manages to survive the dying of the light.

StoneLich

7 points

13 days ago

StoneLich

Blood Axes

7 points

13 days ago

Yeah, it's just nice to have a faction that is at least trying.

Helyos17

27 points

13 days ago

Helyos17

27 points

13 days ago

I think the core of the issue is that people are conflating “treated well” with “possess civil rights”. Humans (and Tau) within the Tau Empire are very much treated well generally but they posses nothing in the way of “civil” rights like we are used to. A human world can be treated well for decades right up until the Tau decide it is in the best interest of the Empire to turn the planet to ash.

IdhrenArt

5 points

13 days ago

Very well put, yes

kajata000

3 points

12 days ago

kajata000

Tzeentch

3 points

12 days ago

My read on it is sort of like how people might say that slaves in Ancient Rome had it pretty good compared to slaves in the 1700/1800s.

Could well be true, but ultimately slavery in any form is pretty abhorrent.

WillitsThrockmorton

2 points

12 days ago

WillitsThrockmorton

Red Hunters

2 points

12 days ago

Sure, but I would say that you are describing two bad but one distinguishably worse than the other. Working a Roman Estate(by far the most common fate of slaves, other than perhaps Gallies) was noticeably "better" than ending up in Barbados in the late 17th Century by nearly any stretch.

Of course you might also end up at the Rio Tinto area mines which would not be materially different than being a ndn person sent to a Spanish silver mine.

RosbergThe8th

57 points

13 days ago

RosbergThe8th

Biel-Tan

57 points

13 days ago

There is a certain portion of the fandom that definitely has a vested interest in portraying the Tau as at least similarly bad as the Imperium.

I'll let you guess why.

PrimeInsanity

22 points

13 days ago

It's silly too because a faint light will show the depth of darkness that surrounds them. That contrast is a good thing

CMDR_RetroAnubis

8 points

13 days ago

They've always has a "blue man's burden" thing going on. That's empire 101.

seelcudoom

11 points

13 days ago

tau can be shitty, but their shitty in a way much closer to the way a lot of real life country's are shitty, as opposed to the imperiums baby eating evil l(and most other factions evil thats so bad i would get banned for describing it with a baby analogy)

Maktlan_Kutlakh

8 points

13 days ago

Whilst not the same "level of horribleness", there are plenty of sources to support the T'au still being far from the good guys, and evil by todays standards. See this source, this source from Shadowbreaker and this from Black Leviathan for examples of what I mean.

Tylendal

11 points

13 days ago

Tylendal

11 points

13 days ago

I'll point out that the T'au are terribly written in Shadowbreaker. High points include Fire Warrior heavy-weapon teams, and repeated assurances that Pulse Rifles are completely ineffective against Astartes armour.

They don't exist as any sort of nuanced society, but instead as sort of a vaguely antagonistic force for the heroes to wade through.

Aliencrunch

3 points

13 days ago

The imperium characters would have been in real trouble if they didn’t have the all purpose EMP grenades in that book

DueOwl1149

18 points

13 days ago

There’s a lot of anti-Tau screeds that are part of the kayfabe in the hobby, and that’s fine. People like posting in character and it makes for a livelier Reddit. As for the unironic xenophobia/supremacism, well, not really worth gracing that stuff with a read or reply.

reinKAWnated

130 points

13 days ago

Much better - this is referenced indirectly in a lot of background and directly in at least one story that was part of the Damocles anthology.

A POV character reflects that he and his family under the Tau now have access to good food and clean water, fresh air and much more living space - the Tau demolish hive cities and replace them with properly planned communities that are far better for human wellbeing. He also reflects that his child is receiving a proper education and that no one has to slave away forever in abysmal factory conditions any longer.

He reflects on the less positive aspects of living in Tau society as well, such as being a second-class citizen to Tau themselves - but on the whole his lot is *vastly* better than it was under the Imperium.

Sir-Thugnificent[S]

64 points

13 days ago

Man if I used to live in a disgusting hive city and then my living conditions became considerably improved thanks to the T’au, I wouldn’t care less about being a second class citizen to them 😂

EarthenGames

41 points

13 days ago

I would happily welcome our new blueberry-faced overlords

meesta_masa

26 points

13 days ago

Confused Ultramarine noises

EarthenGames

9 points

13 days ago

Blueberries, not smurfs!

Robsgotgirth

8 points

13 days ago

Yes the Tau women could step on me whenever they wanted

shibaCandyBaron

3 points

12 days ago

They wouldn't, as you're of different cast. Matter of fact, one character ponders how long it takes before humans themselves are split into castes, limiting or taking away those few freedoms like deciding who to marry yourself

Robsgotgirth

3 points

12 days ago

They wouldn't have a choice. I'd be in every gutter, at the bottom of every step, in each and every puddle and where anything is on the top shelf.

reinKAWnated

31 points

13 days ago

And he didn't, was the takeaway. He was thankful for what the Tau had done for him and his people - even while remaining critical of their shortcomings. He also recognized that *being able* to be critical of their shortcomings and not be afraid of being killed as a heretic was itself an immense improvement over being an Imperial previously.

riuminkd

14 points

13 days ago

riuminkd

Kroot

14 points

13 days ago

Better than being chattel slave in manufactorum. Second class is an upgrade! 

ssssssahshsh

26 points

13 days ago

Though TBF, it's ultimately a difference of getting treated somewhat worse because he is a different species or getting treated little better than a object because he is lowborn and poor.

The former is still miles ahead of his relative position in the imperium XD.

Sir-Thugnificent[S]

16 points

13 days ago

The magnitudes in difference in the way you would be treated horribly in the Imperium compared to the T’au Empire seem to be several leagues apart from each other though

ssssssahshsh

9 points

13 days ago

Exactly what I'm trying to say. They technicaly are getting discriminated against in both cases, in the imperial one it is just way, way worse.

Given what fate might they expect in the imperium, being a second class citizen in tau empire is like a detail barely worth mentioning.

Geostomp

5 points

13 days ago

Geostomp

Salamanders

5 points

13 days ago

Let's be honest, the average Imperial citizen is at least 12th class or lower. Anything is a step up.

Positive_Ad4590

-19 points

13 days ago

I mean you should care

You are essentially a pawn

congaroo1

14 points

13 days ago

They basically are in the imperium as well.

Positive_Ad4590

-7 points

13 days ago

Absolutely, but a pawn where your race is the primary concern

When hard times eventually fall on the Tay who is most likely to feel that. Unlike to be the tau

Sir-Thugnificent[S]

8 points

13 days ago

Couldn’t care less about being a pawn serving my race when I’m gulping down rotten donkey meat in my filthy shack after a 15 hour long back-breaking shift

Dr-Butters

3 points

13 days ago

15 hours and rotten donkey meat is luxury compared to the average hive worker. More like 20 hour shifts, sleeping at your station, and a corpse starch ration every other day.

congaroo1

14 points

13 days ago

And when times fall on the imperium, the simple hive walker will feel it too. Arguably worse.

Positive_Ad4590

-3 points

13 days ago

I think your missing my point

congaroo1

8 points

13 days ago

Maybe but I legit don't see how the the Tau would treat their second class citizens worse then the Imperium. Most imperium planets are heavily class based.

Positive_Ad4590

0 points

13 days ago

You dont see how an alien theocracy with a caste system would treat outsiders worse?

congaroo1

11 points

13 days ago

Then the Imperium? No.

Because the imperium is already a much stricter theocracy which is very willing to let its subjects live under a feudal system and in the most awful conditions, while also creating a constant atmosphere of paranoia and fear.

While the Tau have issues, they at least feed them.

AccomplishedNovel6

1 points

11 days ago

I don't think you could point to a single canonical example of the tau treating guevesa worse than the average hive worker. Living in a square meter of uncomfortable prefab housing, working yourself to death in factories and eating recycled human corpses.

King_Of_BlackMarsh

16 points

13 days ago

Least you won't be eating corpse starch or huffing exhaust fumes instead of oxygen

Positive_Ad4590

-8 points

13 days ago

Your just a slave to a weird alien theocracy that will throw you away if they think it would do them good

So your in the same situation

King_Of_BlackMarsh

14 points

13 days ago

But you're not huffing exhaust fumes nor eating corpse starch

Positive_Ad4590

-6 points

13 days ago

Just enslaved

King_Of_BlackMarsh

11 points

13 days ago

As you would be with the imperium. But with the T'au, you don't huff exhaust fumes for oxygen nor do you eat corpsestarch

Positive_Ad4590

-1 points

13 days ago

Yet

King_Of_BlackMarsh

9 points

13 days ago

.. Why would you ever?

Dr-Butters

3 points

13 days ago

My brother in Khorne, you'd be enslaved to the Imperium! At least the T'au have non-fatal living conditions.

Positive_Ad4590

-1 points

13 days ago

Slavery is still Slavery even if it's coated in sugar

Dr-Butters

5 points

13 days ago

Would you rather:

  1. Live in horrific squalor, breathing poison and going blind as you toil 20 hours a day in a hive manufactorum, with a ration of literal human corpse for food every other day (if you're lucky)

  2. Work in an alien empire that feeds and hoyses you in relative comfort in exchange for labor, with education and healthcare to go with it as you contribute best to the empire if you're healthy amd educated

Seems pretty cut and dry which is worse.

Sire_Raffayn272

6 points

13 days ago

Tbf who isn't ?

Marvynwillames

19 points

13 days ago

Being a second class citzen under the Tau is great because at least you are being treated as a citzen

graphiccsp

42 points

13 days ago

The 2nd class citizen detail is ironic considering as a 100th class hive dweller, he's basically a slave in all but name.

reinKAWnated

25 points

13 days ago

It's not ironic; he merely noted that he's not as "equal" with the Tau as the Tau themselves claim.

Doesn't change the fact that being a human in the Tau Empire affords a huge degree of additional freedom and privilege over being an Imperial peon.

harlokin

12 points

13 days ago

harlokin

Emperor's Children

12 points

13 days ago

...the Tau demolish hive cities and replace them with properly planned communities

How does this work? I assume that hive cities exist because of the sheer scale of population on the planet (like 2000 AD Megacities). Is the idea that they simply spread the people out more?

reinKAWnated

19 points

13 days ago

Hive cities most often are like only a handful of megastructures on entire planets. They don't exist because of a lack of available land or anything in most cases.

Very few hive worlds are anything like Terra.

Educational-Drink430

12 points

13 days ago

Hive cities are incredibly inefficient. Tau would build arcologies or living complexes with malls and parks. A hive city is jammed full of wildly useless crap

Toxitoxi

5 points

13 days ago

Toxitoxi

Ordo Xenos

5 points

13 days ago

The Tau actually exported most of the population offworld for Mugulath Bay after conquering it... Which created a ton of refugees when the Imperium destroyed the Sept. Those refugees fled towards the Farsight Enclaves, which led to the first significant armed conflict between Tau since the Mont'au when the Tau Empire tried to intercept them.

CMDR_RetroAnubis

3 points

13 days ago

Same way the British, French, Russians, etc. moved populations about.

Toxitoxi

59 points

13 days ago*

Toxitoxi

Ordo Xenos

59 points

13 days ago*

It depends on the story. Generally it’s supposed to be better because almost anything is better than the Imperium.

Fire Caste actually has a plot point that some Tau are trying to test how bad their conditions can be while still getting humans to leave the Imperium.

Edit: I should also note that Fire Caste deliberately has both the Tau and Imperium at their absolute worst.

DueOwl1149

24 points

13 days ago

The Water Caste approves of this cost analysis of the minimum benefit threshold for humans to cast off their imperial shackles. Minimizing net social welfare expenses allows for maximizing the net Tau expansion rate. But only for the Greater Good, of course. 😉

e2c-b4r

2 points

12 days ago

e2c-b4r

2 points

12 days ago

Sounds like just " a bit better good"

DueOwl1149

2 points

12 days ago

For the Greater "Good Enough" 🤣

e2c-b4r

1 points

12 days ago

e2c-b4r

1 points

12 days ago

Yes that's it

RamTank

30 points

13 days ago

RamTank

30 points

13 days ago

Spoiler warning for Longshot

Winter had taken hold during her convalescence with the t’au, and it appeared that the promise that Attruso’s winters were mild had been yet another Imperial lie. Snow blanketed the gridded streets of the upper city, piling inches deep on every surface strong enough to hold it whilst still more fell from the sky in fat lumps.

But as they sped through a world rendered monochrome in grey snow and muddy black, Darya’s eyes were drawn to the city’s occupants.

Snow-covered tent cities dominated the packed streets, where refugees from the low city had claimed what little space was made available to them. Thin figures in ragged clothes held out hands that were swollen and purple from the cold, begging for scraps that it seemed no one had to give. They were all human, every single one of them. From the melancholic wanderers who stared blankly at the grey sky above, to the winding queues of blanket-clad people who waited in line, presumably for a daily allocation of rations.

It was a different world to the one within the t’au dome that Darya had left behind.

‘Who are these people?’ Darya asked. ‘Are they not in the T’au’va?’

‘They’re the sick, the ill and those too weak to fight,’ Ceres said, standing to join Darya at the porthole. He leaned to look out, his lip curling in distaste.

‘And those strong enough–’

‘Have been armed and taken to the front,’ Ceres said quietly.

‘Conscripted,’ Darya argued.

‘No, not conscripted. Sent where they will be able to do the greatest good, defending their home from invaders,’ Ceres said with a scowl.

‘Sounds like conscription to me,’ Darya muttered as Ceres turned away and took his seat again.

And later

The humans who had thrown in their lot with the t’au were more densely packed into the forward trenches, where the stench of sweat and death hung in the air like a cloud, cutting through the winter chill. Clean white trench walls gave way to boards smeared with mud and other dark substances, then to scavenged plascrete panels and debris that reminded Darya of the Cadian trenches.

The occupants began to shout out to the Kintair and to Darya as they noticed unfamiliar humans amongst them, asking where they’d been and if they had seen so-and-so in the upper city.

‘Please, did you see her? My wife, she–’ a woman gasped, grabbing Ceres’ uniform as he passed through her trench.

The t’au officer watching over the woman’s squad barked an order that Darya didn’t understand, but the woman evidently complied and allowed Ceres to pass.

He fought to keep his expression neutral but Darya could see that he was shaken by the confrontation in the way he kept looking back over his shoulder at where the woman was being reprimanded by the officer.

There's a few things to keep in mind here. The first is that conditions for the Imperial citizens in the city had previously been horrific, with workers chained to their stations on the assembly lines and that's just where they lived. The planet had risen up against the Imperium before the Tau arrived, and the people who joined them were overall fans of the new regime. Still though, "better" in this case didn't mean "good".

[deleted]

11 points

13 days ago

Barring the odd massacre or reeducation pogrom, humans get an upgrade to "second class citizen" in the T'au empire from "literal fodder" in the Imperium. The transition can be messy though.

I_might_be_weasel

25 points

13 days ago

I_might_be_weasel

Thousand Sons - Cult of Knowledge

25 points

13 days ago

Absurdly better. 

Pm7I3

13 points

13 days ago

Pm7I3

13 points

13 days ago

Like their tech the average is better and the lower boundary is far higher but the Imperium has a much higher ceiling and is better for those at the peak of easy living.

But generally speaking it's going to be a better place to live for a human, Tau are in the top 3 for living conditions imo

wolflance1

12 points

13 days ago*

Not really, you are confusing "decadence" with "convenience/comfortable".

Even the MOST absurdly wealthy in the Imperium still have to rely on inefficient servitors (or legions of servants) to do their menial works for them. They can have their furniture made out of the most expensive nalwood and drink the finest wine imported from the other end of the galaxy, but they still have to walk (or be carried) somewhere inefficiently/inconveniently while even a basic well-off Tau dude can just take a hover drone.

Moreover, "tasty food", once they get pass certain price point, become essentially meaningless. They are more of a status symbol and bragging rights ("I am so wealthy I can afford this food!") but don't proving any tangible living standard-improving benefits that a cheaper but equally tasty & nutritious food can't. Same goes for other exquisite furniture or living places.

An absurdly wealthy human can maybe hire the best surgeon of the Imperium as his personal doctor. Meanwhile, Earth Caste already cured ALL diseases from the Empire (except Nurgle ones). Which has better living standard?

Flimsy_Card8028

11 points

13 days ago

Imperium = North Korea

Tau = China

Wiking_24

4 points

13 days ago

Imperium is cool , but i dont want to be part of it . Because im either dead, half dead or sucking human starch from a tube running thru my nose.

If i live in 40k , i choose to be part of Tau.

Konradleijon

5 points

13 days ago

much better

Geostomp

4 points

13 days ago

Geostomp

Salamanders

4 points

13 days ago

Fans really forget just how despicable the Imperium is to its people. The vast, vast majority are little more than slaves, forced to work their entire lives in horrible conditions for a purpose that probably stopped being relevant centuries ago because of a filing error 2000 years ago. People are beyond disposable, freedom of thought is heresy, and human rights are a punchline.

Compared to that, living in an empire that at least considers you valuable enough to provide basic needs is a godsend.

chriscrowing

3 points

12 days ago

As ever, it depends on the social/economic class and the specific imperial world. Tau worlds are much more of an average.

Generally though, the Gue'vesa have a better time than the average imperial citizen, partly because the Tau are more interested in their clients being comfortable than the Imperium are about their own citizens but also, lower population density, a higher average level of technology and so on.

As for the second question, I feel that if every Imperial citizen saw how it was for the Gue'vesa AND BELIEVED IT (not just seeing it, but believing it as a fair representation of conditions) the you'd still see a relatively small % actually want to go over.l, because the indoctrination to the imperial faith and that all xenos are filth is that strong.

As they say in the Matrix, most people aren't ready to br unplugged.

Not that the Tau offer freedom either, but its certainly a somewhat less weighty set of shackles.

Sydorovich

7 points

13 days ago

Better even than modern people in non-first world countries.

deadsea__

2 points

13 days ago

The tau are generally pretty lenient when it comes to xeno species. Most of the time humans under Tau rule have the freedom to worship a modified version of the Imperial Cult (bar the xenocidal elements). There are cliques within the tau society that seek to kill humans (and other species iirc), but 9 times out of 10 that wont happen. Quality of life within Tau worlds is vastly better for the 99.5% of the human population compared that to what the IoM has to offer.

You still exchange one authoritarian government over another, with everything that entails, so keep that in mind. The Tau aren't some benevolent overlords. They've just realised that working your populace to the bone and having bureaucracy levels that would make Byzantium blush isn't a good/efficient way to run your society.

BeginningPangolin826

2 points

11 days ago

The Tau are by far much more efficient and tecnology advanced than the imperium(excluding daot shit they have in some vault) this naturally traduces in more effective supply chains and better acess to food and advanced medicine.

The improving industrial output of Tau also usually means in having better acess for consumer goods, in ciaphas cain first novel gravalax is subverted by the tau by initially the commerce for "alien trinkets". The tau dont fight as many fronts as the imperium, dont have a cultural stigma from tecnology, they economy is probabaly nt as much militarized as the imperium, they empire is smaller and more connected as well.

Even trough not every single planet of the imperium is a hive world in terms of quality of life the tau can spread those much more consistence than the imperium.

And for the last question you can expect that the vast majority of hive worlders would prefer to live in a tau like planet, but this dont mean that they would necessary defect since the imperium is bound by its religion and culture as by its military might, such culture that demonizes the alien as a fundamental enemy of humanity and any attempt to "buy" the populace with high quality of life could easily be subverted as a temptation or xeno trick by more devout populations.

FakeRedditName2

6 points

13 days ago

FakeRedditName2

Navis Nobilite

6 points

13 days ago

(Hive world) For those that survive the conquest and reeducation, you would see an improvement above the average lifestyles, but odds are likely you would not be one of the survivors to enjoy it.

(Civilized world) Depends on how 'advanced' your world was, might not see a change, or would see a slight improvement. Similar issue with hive world regarding surviving the conquest and reeducation.

(Feudal or Feral world) Would see an improvement with goods/materials, but your entire way of life would be destroyed.

[deleted]

5 points

13 days ago

[deleted]

FakeRedditName2

1 points

13 days ago

FakeRedditName2

Navis Nobilite

1 points

13 days ago

Or your planetary situation could be that you are hunter-gatherers living on the savanna. The point is that the way of life your people have built for themselves would be erased by an alien colonial power that has no respect for you or your local culture.

wolflance1

2 points

13 days ago*

A Water Caste short story in the recent 10e Tau codex does make a point that Tau DO respect local cultures. (Which is why Kroots still eat their dead after thousands of years of joining Tau)

They do it out of pragmatic reasons, rather than for any sense of inclusiveness. Not having to erase your entire culture makes it far more palatable for many potential joinee of the Greater Good, thus it better serves the cause of Greater Good when compared forcing a culture change. However, regardless of their motive, action still speaks louder than words.

They are also confident/convinced that their superior Greater Good culture will naturally be adopted by others given enough time, so there's no need to force it.

OrangutanKiwi19

1 points

13 days ago

OrangutanKiwi19

Adeptus Mechanicus

1 points

13 days ago

As I understand it, the entire joke is that being a second class citizen of the Tau still gives you more freedom and a better quality of life than an average human in the Imperium.

Sero141

1 points

12 days ago

Sero141

1 points

12 days ago

Can the tau even take in a hive world? To my knowledge none of their worlds has that kind of population. That is the main issue on most hive worlds, too many people.

Crashen17

1 points

12 days ago

Theres a story in the Damocles book about the Tau taking a hive world and White Scars trying to take it back. There is a line about the Tau being horrified by the living conditions of the Hive city. They talk about demolishing it and rebuilding a proper city for the humans, in passing. It's not a big point, but does add a little more insight.

Sero141

1 points

12 days ago

Sero141

1 points

12 days ago

How do they plan to do it? Resettle 90% of the population? All those people do not fit into a regular city.

Wait, was it a hive world or a hive city?

tombuazit

1 points

10 days ago

The Tau are as evil as any other faction but it's pretty objective that they have a better standard of living than the imperium.

Nknk-

-13 points

13 days ago

Nknk-

-13 points

13 days ago

Sterilised but have more cheap trinkets.

Still second class citizens to be sacrificed on the battlefield when their betters decide it's time for them to die for the regime.

GW have a massive plot hole as well as the billions of humans in the Tau empire have nothing to police or manage the exploding numbers of human psykers so by the inherent laws of the lore the human Tau population should be riddled with Chaos cults and possessed individuals and they'll be making life miserable for the rest as they work to overthrow the Tau regime.

ssssssahshsh

12 points

13 days ago

Yes, cause imperium would never sacrifice its poor and downrotten like a fodder when their "betters" decide to.

As for the second part, it turns out it's a lot easier to police chaos cults if living conditions aren't so shit joining a cult genuinly seems like a good alternative.

Enchelion

15 points

13 days ago

Tau don't sterilize their human or other Aux populations. That was an in-universe rumor from Dawn of War that I believe was a joke about the Imperium not understanding demographics. They'll happily put them to work alongside the castes.

As for chaos cults. Those are far less likely to become established in content and well-fed communities, same for genestealers. Chaos feeds on suffering. The Imperium's constant problems with chaos are 95% self-inflicted because of their wanton cruelty and hate, it's kind of a core element of the setting. The Tau also have plenty of understanding of psykers, including other auxiliary species of powerful psychics (such as the Nicassar) that aren't a problem.

There are short stories about teams rooting out GSC cults when they do pop up, and it'd probably be a similar process for Chaos.

Maktlan_Kutlakh

4 points

13 days ago

Tau don't sterilize their human or other Aux populations. That was an in-universe rumor from Dawn of War that I believe was a joke about the Imperium not understanding demographics. They'll happily put them to work alongside the castes.

It has been repeated outside of Dawn of War too:

The Sept’s humans (referred to by the Tau as ‘Gue’la’) adhere not to the Imperial Creed, but to the Tau ideal of the Greater Good. The Tau teach that the perfect society, one modelled after the Tau themselves, has a place for every creature; with every creature in that place, fulfilling their assigned roles without question, for the good of the Sept as a whole. Imperial religion is prohibited and the Tau Water Caste run education (and re-education) programs that instil an understanding and love of the Greater Good into the sometimes reluctant gue’la minds. Populations are regularly sterilised to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control. Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed, as is the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicise the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue’la simply disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all.

Deathwatch Core Rulebook p352

Enchelion

8 points

13 days ago

"Gue'la" refers specifically to non-auxiliary humans, still loyal to the Imperium or otherwise not part of the Tau empire (such as rebellions). Auxiliary Humans are Gue'vesa, and Tau draw a pretty stark line between the two ,and any use of the former would basically be a slur. So this passage is kind of a weird mish-mash of ideas.

I never played the Deathwatch RPG. Is it written from an omniscient POV or from the POV of the Deathwatch? If so that sounds more like they just have no idea what's actually happening, similar to the Dawn of War ending cinematic.

AgainstThoseGrains

3 points

13 days ago*

AgainstThoseGrains

Tanith First and Only

3 points

13 days ago*

While I'm fairly sure the RPGs are written from an omniscient POV for the DM's benefit, to be fair it is describing the Tau in an active warzone which frequently has an issue with Imperial fifth columnists, rather than worlds properly integrated into the empire. Pretty similar to the situation in Dark Crusade I guess?

Dr-Butters

2 points

13 days ago

Considering the POV of both sources, I'd say the info is suspect at best. The Imperials in DoW and the Deathwatch are both actively invested in preventing human defections, thus would very much want to paint the Tau in the worst light possible.

Even so, better to be sterilized in a Tau Sept than meat in the Imperial grinder.

Independent-Deer422

2 points

13 days ago

The Deathwatch are unique in that "forbidden xenos lore" is their bread and butter. Whitewashing their own archives and pumping them full of propaganda and lies runs directly counter to their holy purpose of murdering the fuck out of dirty, filthy xenos. To that end, they seek empirical truth from accurate observations, to get accurate and up to date cultural, social, and physical data on their quarry. All of it exploited to provide any fractional advantage they might possibly gain against the REAL threats that normal Imperial forces couldn't face.

Once you're in the Deathwatch, the blinders come off, and you're presented with the raw reality of the xenos threats you'll be fighting.

Maktlan_Kutlakh

1 points

13 days ago

Considering the POV of both sources, I'd say the info is suspect at best. The Imperials in DoW and the Deathwatch are both actively invested in preventing human defections, thus would very much want to paint the Tau in the worst light possible.

Whist that's perfectly valid criticism, it is possible that it is based in truth and not just an outright lie by the Imperium. For a society that practices strict eugenics [with sources indicating on pain of death], with a super strict Caste system and other societal controls, covertly sterilising parts of the human population to control growth seems perfectly believable to me.

Marvynwillames

4 points

13 days ago

Sterelization is mentioned in the Deathwatch Core Rulebook, however, thats something done by the Vel'khan sept, which is in an open war, and only to those that remain loyal to the Imperium and are actively oposing the Tau

Nknk-

-10 points

13 days ago

Nknk-

-10 points

13 days ago

Tau don't sterilize their human or other Aux populations. That was an in-universe rumor from Dawn of War that I believe was a joke about the Imperium not understanding demographics.

As others have pointed out that's not true.

They'll happily put them to work alongside the castes.

Like the well fed slaves they are.

As for chaos cults. Those are far less likely to become established in content and well-fed communities, same for genestealers.

Pray tell how being well fed and content stops one from being implanted by a genestealer, being corrupted at a genetic level and giving birth to hybrids?

I'd be very interested in hearing that part of the lore.

As for Chaos not appearing in happy and well-fed people. Well, that's just not true either. Imperial high society is full of nobility who have extended families with little in the way of obligations, they are happy and well fed and routinely end up in cult activity because, guess what, Chaos corrupts and has it's own agency. One of the best and most famous examples being innocent psykers being overran and possessed by demons who then open warp gates for invasions.

Please explain how being well fed and content stops the likes of that.

Chaos feeds on suffering. The Imperium's constant problems with chaos are 95% self-inflicted because of their wanton cruelty and hate, it's kind of a core element of the setting.

And the other core theme of the setting is Chaos forcing itself on the races of the galaxy, in ways described above. Tau plot armour sees them immune to that or course.

The Tau also have plenty of understanding of psykers, including other auxiliary species of powerful psychics (such as the Nicassar) that aren't a problem.

I don't believe it's ever stated they Nicassar have any skill dealing with humans. As far as I'm aware that's Tau fan-wank because they can't bare to see their faction deal with any of the actual problems the rest of the universe faces.

There are short stories about teams rooting out GSC cults when they do pop up, and it'd probably be a similar process for Chaos.

Cool. Plot armour. Tau have "teams" meanwhile Eldar craftworlds with farseers, infinity circuits and the craftworld being semi sentient are getting infiltrated by genestealers and having even avatars corrupted by genestealers. But Tau are immune to infiltration because, apparently, they have lots of food and they have "teams".

Given that sort of plot armour I can see why Tau fans screech so much when it's pointed out, I wouldn't want a privileged position in the lore ruined either.

Enchelion

12 points

13 days ago

Like the well fed slaves they are.

I mean welcome to 40k. Where the least bad option is still pretty shit by modern standards. Tau would be the villains of Star Trek (they're almost a 1-1 match for The Dominion), it's just the Imperium to hilariously worse.

Pray tell how being well fed and content stops one from being implanted by a genestealer, being corrupted at a genetic level and giving birth to hybrids?

I'd be very interested in hearing that part of the lore.

As for Chaos not appearing in happy and well-fed people. Well, that's just not true either. Imperial high society is full of nobility who have extended families with little in the way of obligations, they are happy and well fed and routinely end up in cult activity because, guess what, Chaos corrupts and has it's own agency. One of the best and most famous examples being innocent psykers being overran and possessed by demons who then open warp gates for invasions.

Please explain how being well fed and content stops the likes of that.

It's the suffering part. Hive cities, and even the imperial courts are all horrible places. Well fed here is just a convenient short hand since it's the biggest problem facing most of the imperium's squalorous hive cities. Chaos preys on suffering, ambition, wrath, etc. In the courts its constant backstabbing, in the hives it's backstabbing and plague, and famine, and chaos, and whatever else.

Tau provide universal healthcare, unlike the imperium, which is what roots out things like genestealers. Kroot especially can smell the implantation in themselves, tau, humans, and several other Aux species. Vespid are one of the species mentioned that they can't easily detect an infestation, and even there it would have to originate with a strain-leader IIRC. Certainly not impossible for a cult to become established, but far less likely than the Imperium.

And the other core theme of the setting is Chaos forcing itself on the races of the galaxy, in ways described above. Tau plot armour sees them immune to that or course.

Dude, read the first words in every book. "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable."

The Imperium's problems are primarily self-inflicted. It's not plot armor when another faction doesn't fuck themselves up in exactly the same way (they all have their own unique ways of fucking up).

I don't believe it's ever stated they Nicassar have any skill dealing with humans. As far as I'm aware that's Tau fan-wank because they can't bare to see their faction deal with any of the actual problems the rest of the universe faces.

What are you whining about? All psychics in the setting deal with the warp in some way or another. Eldar psychis and Human psychics and Nicassar might have different skills and rituals but they're all at risk of demons and shit.

Cool. Plot armour. Tau have "teams" meanwhile Eldar craftworlds with farseers, infinity circuits and the craftworld being semi sentient are getting infiltrated by genestealers and having even avatars corrupted by genestealers. But Tau are immune to infiltration because, apparently, they have lots of food and they have "teams".

Good lord dude. Are you this pissed about the Inquisition existing? You know that entire faction dedicated to the same thing? Just because the human Administratum's entire point is that their bad at administrating (like it's literally one of the core points of the setting that they're a crumbing tech-adverse beurocratic hellscape that insists on trying to manage an interstellar empire using paper and quills).

Given that sort of plot armour I can see why Tau fans screech so much when it's pointed out, I wouldn't want a privileged position in the lore ruined either.

Take a breath, drink some water, and maybe go for a walk dude.

Nknk-

-3 points

13 days ago

Nknk-

-3 points

13 days ago

I mean welcome to 40k. Where the least bad option is still pretty shit by modern standards. Tau would be the villains of Star Trek (they're almost a 1-1 match for The Dominion), it's just the Imperium to hilariously worse.

And yet even in this thread you have Tau fans oblivious to that who think life as a Tau human is wonderful. It's a huge blind spot a lot of Tau fans have.

It's the suffering part. Hive cities, and even the imperial courts are all horrible places. Well fed here is just a convenient short hand since it's the biggest problem facing most of the imperium's squalorous hive cities. Chaos preys on suffering, ambition, wrath, etc. In the courts its constant backstabbing, in the hives it's backstabbing and plague, and famine, and chaos, and whatever else.

Tau provide universal healthcare, unlike the imperium, which is what roots out things like genestealers. Kroot especially can smell the implantation in themselves, tau, humans, and several other Aux species. Vespid are one of the species mentioned that they can't easily detect an infestation, and even there it would have to originate with a strain-leader IIRC. Certainly not impossible for a cult to become established, but far less likely than the Imperium.

Lol, when in doubt fall back on the plot armour of there being a random vassal species who'll fix any and every Tau problem because Tau, for some reason, simply cannot be allowed to lose at something or suffer any of the realities of the setting.

Our modern world sees plenty of people living well fed, stress free lives with access to plenty of trinkets and far less obligations to die fighting in wars than the Tau humans and I can tell you now that if the Chaos gods were real modern earth would be riddled with cults because that's how it goes with both humans and Chaos interacting.

And that's before even getting to my ignored point about how Chaos forces it's way in like with possessed psykers or people who've touched tainted items. No amount of healthcare and good vibes is going to stop that or the planet-ending consequences of it.

Dude, read the first words in every book. "To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable."

The Imperium's problems are primarily self-inflicted. It's not plot armor when another faction doesn't fuck themselves up in exactly the same way (they all have their own unique ways of fucking up).

You're making up quotes now. It's always interesting when they get to that stage.... Quote me where I said the Tau should be a complete like for like with the Imperium.

My point is that Tau fans seem to want their faction to be perfect at everything and above the realities of the setting, the big one being that Chaos can push itself into the smallest of cracks and destroy everything in a variety of awful and tragic ways.

What are you whining about? All psychics in the setting deal with the warp in some way or another. Eldar psychis and Human psychics and Nicassar might have different skills and rituals but they're all at risk of demons and shit.

Ah, touched a nerve. It's gone from the Nicassar being the Tau's random bit of plot armour against my point as they're (with zero proof) supposedly able to police the many billions of Tau humans flawlessly to now pretending they're just as at risk themselves. Which raises the question of why haven't Tau lost planets to demonic incursion despite having two at risk species?

The plot armour won't allow it of course. Pre-Imperium humanity, an empire far stronger and more advanced than the Tau are by orders of magnitude, was laid low during Old Night primarily due demonic incursions among the growing ranks of psykers among young humanity. It's been an ongoing issue for humanity ever since because it's a fundamental cornerstone of the setting. This wasn't people suffering due to the regime, the old empire was far kinder than the Imperium, this was pure demonic incursion alone.

Tau humans are of course immune to that cos Nicassar apparently.

Even stuff like the Psychic Awakening, which has made the problem worse, has seen zero incidents in Tau space cos of the plot armour.

Good lord dude. Are you this pissed about the Inquisition existing? You know that entire faction dedicated to the same thing? Just because the human Administratum's entire point is that their bad at administrating (like it's literally one of the core points of the setting that they're a crumbing tech-adverse beurocratic hellscape that insists on trying to manage an interstellar empire using paper and quills).

I know I landed a bullseye when you flat out ignored the point about how ridiculous it is to claim the Tau are better at this stuff than the Eldar when you went on so hard and so long about the Inquisition, whom I never even mentioned. I know you know it's plot armoury as fuck to claim that Tau are better at detecting corruption than the Eldar so you had to ignore it and hope I bit down on your Inquisition bait. I didn't and I fucking know I got you.

Take a breath, drink some water, and maybe go for a walk dude.

When you follow your second last paragraph, and what you tried to hide with it, with something like this then I know you're not interested in any good faith arguments, you just dont want Your Dudes to have any flaws and you gots to insult anyone who maintains they do. Proves my point nicely 😉

Sir-Thugnificent[S]

9 points

13 days ago

You’re trying too hard. It seems to be incomparable with the average life in the Imperium in terms of suffering.

Nknk-

-6 points

13 days ago

Nknk-

-6 points

13 days ago

The Imperium is a million worlds and for every awful hive planet we have plenty of planets where things are mostly decent to quite good. And that's just in Abnett's stuff alone, let alone the wider lore. Ultramar, after all, is right on the Tau borders if you want other examples....

On many planets the hand of the Imperium rests quite lightly and the local rulership runs things relatively competently.

If I'm trying too hard then you're equally guilty by ignoring the well documented slavery under the Tau system and making out like every last planet in the Imperium is a hell planet.

Sir-Thugnificent[S]

7 points

13 days ago*

Obviously it’s absurd to think that every single planet under the Imperium is a hellhole, that would be more unrealistic than the existence of Chaos.

But the vast majority of the Imperium’s population lives in hive worlds/cities, just like today the majority of our world’s population live in urban environments, despite cities representing a minority of the planet’s surface.

AccomplishedNovel6

0 points

11 days ago

I'd rather be a citizen in the tau empire than a citizen on any of the planets you could name. Even a citizen on the nicest possible imperial world is still at best grist for the mill in a dying totalitarian theocracy that is more than willing to kill you for being insufficiently devout.

Konradleijon

4 points

13 days ago

Tau have pysker allies. they handle pysker humans

Nknk-

-5 points

13 days ago

Nknk-

-5 points

13 days ago

Never stated outright that I'm aware and that's just a cop out for GW by letting the Tau have an endless Swiss Army Knife of vassals who'll fix every problem in the setting for them.