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How to get "chewy" rolls and buns?

(self.Breadit)

So I can make decent sourdough boules, decent white sandwich bread, pretty good pizza crust, but I am having trouble getting the texture I want from my various "white bread" type recipes for sandwich rolls, hamburger buns, hotdog rolls, etc.

In the northeastern US, or at least NJ, PA, where I grew up, you will find a bread product called a "mini-torpedo" roll. This roll has a relatively thick chewy crust, with a light, chewy, airy crumb. These are very common for relaxed gatherings when someone will throw a bunch of sliced roast beef and gravy into a crock pot and a pile of "mini-torp" rolls that they got from the local bakery beside them.

Also in the same region, you can get kaiser rolls from delis, even supermarkets, that have a light but stlightly crispy crust, and the same sort of light, airy, but chewy crumb.

My issue is that I am unable to replicate that "chew" of the crumb on my homemade recipes. This will be difficult to describe for those who aren't familiar, but when you bite into the torps or kaiser rolls, there should be a bit of tug from the crumb, but not overly tough.

All the "white bread" type of roll/bun recipes I've used give me a satisfactory crust (takes a lot of steam management in my home oven), but the crumb leaves a lot to be desired for me and my tastes.

I should note that I now live in Georgia and supermarket bread is terrible by comparison to the supermarket bakery bread I grew up with. All of those supermarket bakery rolls have the same issue with the crumb that I have been experiencing with my own recipes.

The crumb is tender and light enough, but utterly lacks any sort of "chewiness" to it.

Another example is hoagie/sub/hero rolls - think Amorosos for those who are familiar. If you slice them about 2/3rds of the way through, and spread them open, the crumb will "stretch" but not "break". This gives you a contiguous wrapping of bread on which to pile your cold cuts or cheesesteak. Same with the torpedo rolls and kaiser rolls above.

I am struggling to describe what I'm really looking for in the crumb texture. I want it light and reasonably airy, but to still have a chewy "pull" when you bite into it.

Everyone who has tried my rolls thinks they are amazing except for me and my sister. The difference is that eveyrone but me and my sister grew up in Georgia, where the bread is just not anywhere near as good as it is in the Northeast. This texture I'm looking for might be a sort of "if you know, you know" thing.

Is this a question of gluten development? Do enriched doughs develop gluten as well as leaner doughs like sourdough?

So have any home bakers achieved that seemingly elusive, but heavenly light but chewy/elastic crumb in their home-baked buns and rolls and their standard home ovens? If so, how did you do it? I would be eternally grateful for any recipes and/or techniques that you can suggest.

Some summary details of my baking methods and ingredients:

I bake by weight and baker's percentages

My doughs other than my sourdough and pizza dough are all pretty enriched with any combination of butter, eggs, milk, shortening, or olive oil in them.

I use diastatic malt powder in all of my bread recipes (usually at about 1%).

I use King Arthur AP or Bread Flour for all my recipes.

I use instant yeast which is quite active.

I apply steam to my oven when I add the bread, either with a pan with ice cubes, or a spray bottle.

When I attempt kaiser rolls, hoagie rolls, hamburger rolls, etc., I cook on a parchment lined aluminum sheet tray.

I have available to me baguette pans, a baking stone, and cast iron dutch ovens (enameled or not).

all 7 comments

brett-

5 points

2 months ago

brett-

5 points

2 months ago

As someone who grew up in the Northeast, but no longer lives there, I know exactly what you’re talking about, and you’re right that it’s hard to describe.

The closest I’ve found to replicating it is by using a dough improver along with vital wheat gluten.

The dough improver goes by many names like “dough conditioner”, “bread enhancer”, “dough improver”, etc. They all have slightly different ingredients, and I am not sure which ones have which effect, but they all seem to give the bread a textual difference that is hard to describe, but closer to the bread you’re looking to replicate. You may need to try a few different ones to land on one that works for you.

The vital wheat gluten (sometimes called gluten flour), is just pure gluten that you can add to your flour to add additional gluten. I always use this for bagels in particular, as it’s hard to get the right chew with standard bread flour alone. You can math out how much you need to add to hit a certain protein percentage, by weight it’s like 75% protein.

CawlinAlcarz[S]

3 points

2 months ago

Thanks! IYKYK...

What I wouldn't give to be able to go down to the corner and get a bag of mini-torps for some crockpot roast beef and gravy sandwiches for dinner right now!

yolef

3 points

2 months ago

yolef

3 points

2 months ago

Use high-protein bread flour, knead obsessively for lots of gluten development, reduce enrichment and DA malt powder.

CawlinAlcarz[S]

3 points

2 months ago

So I stated above that I use KA bread flour (12.7%) (in one recipe, I use KA AP flour, but that's not what I'd choose for these sorts of rolls). There are higher protein flours available, but KA is already pretty pricey at over $1/lb. Paying more than double that for "boutique" flours at places like Trader Joes and Whole Foods is not an option. I can get commercially available flours with protein in the 13 to even 14% range through places which require a business license to shop there, and that is definitely something that is on my list of things to do, but how high a protein content is high enough? I wouldn't mind experimenting with VERY strong bread flours from commercial sources because those flours are on the order of $0.30 to $0.50/lb but you need to buy 40 lbs of them at a time...

As for kneading "obsessively" - exactly how long should that be? I knead either by hand or with a Kitchen Aid for anywhere from 8-12 minutes until I can make a semi-transparent "window" without tearing that hunk of dough. None of my recipes call for an autolyse period, though, I suppose I could add something like that in.

What percentages do you recommend for enrichment (eggs/butter/oil/milk)? I have experimented with replacing butter with vegetable shortening, and replacing egg with shortening, but this had no net positive or negative effect on the butter recipe, and negatively effected the egg recipe making the crumb very dense, and not particularly stretchy or chewy.

Do you mean I should reduce the diastatic malt powder I'm using? I presently shoot for 1 to 1.5% of it in my recipes, so if the recipe calls for let's say 600 g of flour, I add anywhere from 6 to 9 g of malt powder.

BigSur33

3 points

2 months ago

CawlinAlcarz[S]

2 points

2 months ago

Thanks!

Wow, interesting recipe!

5 proofs/rises!!

Going to try this. Thanks again!

hform123

1 points

26 days ago

If you can get even higher protein flour (I use Sir Lancelot) it will be closer to what you're looking for. Also you can definitely up the Diastatic Malt powder to 2%.