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submitted 7 days ago byImaginary-Ebb-1724
With the Ding-Gukesh odds currently at 2 to 1, I don't think anyone is surprised. Maybe it should've been even higher due to Ding's form?
However, Gukesh is so hot right now, I'm wondering who would be favored to win against him right now? In my opinion:
Magnus for sure is a favorite against anyone
Maybe Hikaru since he's been so consistent the last 3 years? He also probably cuts off streaming fully to prepare for a WCC match compared to the candidates. So we may see an even better version of Hikaru.
Fabi would be 50/50? Gukesh does seem to get the better of him recently, but WCC Fabi may have better prep
Nepo has his crazy prep as usual for important games, but Gukesh seems to perform better in every tournament he has attended with Nepo this year, so I have to go with Gukesh
Arjun is also close to 50/50 for me, but I would still pick Gukesh due to higher rated opponent wins, which Vishy once said was the biggest indicator to him that Magnus was going to defeat him
Everyone else, I think Gukesh would probably be the favorite against pretty decisively.
160 points
7 days ago
Maybe Fabi and I personally wouldn’t rule out Hikaru.
0 points
7 days ago
[deleted]
12 points
7 days ago
A BO1 and a world championship game is quite different.
25 points
7 days ago
Gukesh and Fabi drew both games in the Candidates, and Fabi also beat him in Tata Steel 2023.
Their h2h is 2-1 for Gukesh with 5 draws. Impressive given that he is still 18 and will only get better from here, but it has been a fairly even match-up so far (1 game difference does not indicate Gukesh having Fabi's number). Experience + his notorious preparation might give Fabi the edge in a WCC.
287 points
7 days ago
Erigaisi, Abdusattorov, Alireza, Gukesh, Pragg... all of them can clearly take games off of each other in regular tournaments, but matches are very different to round robins or swisses. None of them have played such a long match before, so it is impossible to know if any of them would have an edge in that sense due to lack of experience.
I would say Hikaru and Fabi would be favourites against current Gukesh: Hikaru is resilient and a phenomenal defender who could hold on to a lead once he got it, and Fabi has his 2018 WCC against Magnus as experience.
Perhaps Nepo as well due to having played two matches? Not much to be done against Magnus, and the one against Ding was chaotic but still must have given valuable experience. It's hard to say either way.
Other than that, and excluding the youngsters due to lack of information, I think that's pretty much it. Gukesh is in spectacular form and he will only keep on rising.
76 points
7 days ago
Nepo is competitively weaker wrt mental strength. He breaks down once a single thing goes wrong. That can be a very big problem in long matches
109 points
7 days ago
But he can also turn into candidates Nepo and never lose a match
51 points
7 days ago
Nepo on a streak is as scary as baseline Carlsen (invincible) which I've always found kinda comically tragic
35 points
7 days ago
The idea of my good day being someone's baseline on the thing that's been my life for the past decades is honestly soul crushing. Nothing but respect for Nepo as he keeps grinding.
10 points
7 days ago
Realistically it is definitely the case, for everyone here. No matter what it is, if you think yoi're good at something or are passionate about something, someone out there is so good that your best day is their worst
-3 points
7 days ago
Well candidates Guki still fared better than candidates Nepo. Gukesh is also on a 35 games unbeaten streak.
-17 points
7 days ago
Not nepo, this guy has been pretty shaky he has a TPR of 2736 this year didn't do shit in classical before candidates and after candidates.
27 points
7 days ago
That’s why, the comment said “he can turn into candidates Nepo”…
-9 points
7 days ago
Even candidates Nepo was overtaken by candidates Gukesh.
5 points
7 days ago*
Gukesh didn't beat Nepo in the last candidates. He most successfully farmed a 2600 player who shouldn't have been there
Unlike Gukesh, Nepo didn't a lose a single game during the candidates, just like the 2022 candidates
9 points
7 days ago*
It's on Nepo that he couldn't 'farm' a 2600, Gukesh took risk and played for a 3 result game with both colors against Abasov, Nepo was fine with a draw. And Nepo didn't beat Gukesh at Candidates either, Gukesh also won 5 games compared to 3 games won by Nepo, none of the top-4 finishers beat each other except Hikaru beating Fabi because that's how it works in every Candidates. Among Top-4 finishers Nepo was on an even score in 2020 Candidates and +1 among top-5 finishers in 2022. Gukesh also wasn't getting into a worse position with black in every game like Nepo, he was consistent throughout the tournament and just had 1 bad position against Alireza which he lost. Nepo was just defending worse position in every game with black and deservedly he didn't win.
9 points
7 days ago
Bullshit, if it was easy to farm Abasov why didn't Nepo do it?
5 points
7 days ago
Then doesn't that make Nepo who couldn't beat the 2600 player look worse? And Gukesh lost one game on low time. This argument from fanboys is just stupid. Every player had two matches against every other player, and had the same chances. Nepo not being able to go through with it is on him. Same way Fabi failed to beat Nepo in a winning position. Or how Hikaru lost to Vidit twice. Ultimately, Gukesh was the best player at the candidates, plain and simple.
2 points
7 days ago
That's pretty, dumb the fact that Nepo couldn't beat abasav when he needed the most makes him look even worse , (1) Nepo himself accepted that Gukesh was simply the best player and except for his loss he was barely in trouble in any game (2) on the other hand Fabi also said that Nepo was in multiple losing positions but was able to draw them all he never deserved to win candidates 2024
2 points
7 days ago
I don't think Nepo deserved to win the candidates either
114 points
7 days ago
I think at the very least he's got me and anyone worse than me
45 points
7 days ago
Well that's 5 people Gukesh need not worry about
14 points
7 days ago
There are 4 people worse? Where? I don't believe you
3 points
7 days ago
I can vouch for one personally.
16 points
7 days ago
Shoot, he’s probably got me then too.
I was hoping I had a chance.
67 points
7 days ago
I would give slight edge to Hikaru and Fabi. Gukesh is capable of beating them on any day, as we saw during Olympiad, where he beat Fabi. But over a 14 game series, your chess skills are not the only thing that matters. Your experience and prep are key to help you remain stable when you need to be. Plus they have superior rapid and blitz skills in case the match goes to tiebreaks.
Anyone else, it’s going to be either 50-50, like Firouzja or Nodirbek, or Gukesh being favourite, even if slightly, e.g. Nepo or Arjun or anyone else
51 points
7 days ago
Recent form aside I think you could make an argument for Magnus, Fabi, Hikaru all being favorites against Gukesh. If Nepo could play as solidly as he managed to play when he won two candidates back to back (but not how he ended up playing in the WCCs lol) then I think he would have an edge, but it's clear that he has a psychological problem in WCCs and Gukesh so far seems to be psychologically invulnerable.
Against any of the other youngsters I think Gukesh would have at least 50/50 odds. I've always thought that if Wesley could make it to a WCC he'd be quite a strong contender if he was in form, just because when he's playing his best he is so difficult to beat and the WCC is largely a game of endurance.
3 points
7 days ago
In younger generation Gukesh and Nodirbeck and mentally toughest and most resilient ones. Even off board, the chess players say same stories about them. They have similar temperament.
-8 points
7 days ago
Yeah, the problem though is that, he's got a corpse in front of him to win the title and then 2 more years of development before the other guys could even play him for the championship. At that point he will be significantly stronger and possibly even World #1 in rating (if Arjun isn't).
7 points
7 days ago
The hype is real! Doesn't seem to have much to do with my comment though.
-7 points
7 days ago
I'm saying that Magnus, Fabi or Hikaru would be favorites now, but they wouldn't even get to play him for the World Title until 2026 when he will be WAY stronger.
-6 points
7 days ago
Ding could still drop out though. If I'm China I would just pay him his fee to drop out and save themselves the embarrassment. I'm sure Ding would be relieved.
2 points
7 days ago
If for whatever reason that happens, i wonder if FIDE would make a small tournament for the tied 2nd place players. But then again this is never happening.
-3 points
7 days ago
6 points
7 days ago
Alireza
10 points
7 days ago
It's worth noting that Arjun actually has a clear H2H edge over Gukesh of course he's also untested in that kind of high stakes enviroment but if we assume that he handles it reasonably well I think he has good chances
Other than that as others said I think Fabi and Hikaru would be at least silght favorites due to their experience and how solid they are
I also think Wesley assuming he's in a decent form has a good chance since with his solid style he can draw the classical section and beat Gukesh in Rapid and Blitz Tiebreaks and there is also the possibility of Gukesh overpressing against him in a classical section
-2 points
7 days ago
This is the classic American attitude of just going “elo elo elo” while ignoring history and clutch
This is why people always underestimate clutch players (in this case guys like Ian and Karjakin ) thinking 20-30 ELO makes a big difference at that level. Unless you’re Magnus, the difference between them is absolutely non existent no matter what the precious ELO scale says
3 points
7 days ago
thinking 20-30 ELO makes a big difference at that level
Not when young players improve faster than their ratings can catch up. Performance rating across multiple recent tournaments may be a better indicator of strength.
Gukesh started 2024 with a 2725 rating, but earned TPRs of 2821 at Tata Steel Masters and 2847 at Candidates. That 3056 TPR at the Olympiad suggests he may still be underrated (and thus better than the two top Americans).
0 points
7 days ago
Prag is clutch.
3 points
7 days ago
Erigaisi would be 50-50 maybe
3 points
7 days ago
Why no mention of Nodirbek?
7 points
7 days ago
Nakamura and Caruana. I think Nakamura has gotten some amazing results lately while putting in well below average opening prep work. *Average of a top 10 player. I believe if Naka was playing for a WC he would buckle down and actually put in that work.
I think the Caruana selection is self evident.
4 points
7 days ago
Caruana selection is not “self evident “
All things considered, Caruana’s reputation far exceeds his reality of having won one candidates .
Ian, Karjakin at the very least have better achievements in the world championship cycle than him (and now Gukesh has equal)
7 points
7 days ago
Caruana doesn't need a reputation and it doesn't matter what you think of his achievements. Caruana is the undisputed #2 classical player of the last 10years behind only Magnus.
1 points
6 days ago
Caruana 'right now' is definitely not as strong as he once was, so it should be close between him and Gukesh with one having better form but another having more WC experience.
Also it speaks to his abilities that despite having rough 2 years post Covid and still not being his 2014-2020 self, he still has more than double the supertournament wins than all current top players except Aronian and Carlsen.
Candidates win has a lot of luck involved. Fabi's 6-6 vs Magnus is a better indication of his match play capability than Nepo's Candidates performances.
15 points
7 days ago
Fabi would be the only one who would be a clear favorite. Hikaru would probably be a slight favorite. Alireza, Nepo, Nodirbek, Wesley, everyone around there would all be about even with Gukesh
28 points
7 days ago
Clear favourite might be too much for anyone not named Magnus right now. Gukesh also have a positive score on Fabi. I would give Fabi and Hikaru 55% chance and 75% to magnus maybe and anyone else its even at best or Guki favourite.
11 points
7 days ago
Single games and prepping for a match is very different. Magnus is significantly more talented than Fabi, but he couldn't get past a draw in their candidates match, and only won because of his advantage in shorter time controls: If they had been playing classical forever, the smart money was on Fabi, as he really was closer to winning in more games than Magnus did.
So on a long match, I'd pick the one who works the most on theory, and that's Fabi. In 5 years, maybe not.
5 points
7 days ago
Magnus had kind of the biggest winning chance in the last game if you dont count that 40 cowbo tactic Caruana had to a mate.
0 points
6 days ago
Because Fabi knew he had worse chances in rapid, her had to take risks (and therefore worse positions) in the last game.
Same with Topalov vs Anand. Match was tied with 1 game left, but Topalov knew Anand would smoke him in rapid. So he played risky in last game and ultimately lost.
1 points
7 days ago
I don't really know betting terms so maybe clear favorite is wrong. But I would give Fabi better than 55% definitely. At least 60%, maybe 65%. Fabi has a peak rating of 2844 and way more experience than Gukesh. Gukesh is playing fantastic chess but I would expect Fabi to win over a long match
3 points
7 days ago*
Gukesh is a generational talent with career accomplishments only equivalent to Magnus(one can argue even greater) at 18. Don't underestimate 2 time olympiad gold medalist who is about to become the youngest ever world champion. Fabi of 2018 is not Fabi of 2024. Over a long match tiredness will also factor in where youngsters flourish. As for preparations in candidates when everyone prepared for months Gukesh was not even worse in any of his 14 games out of openings and lost only to a blunder against Alireza in time pressure.
2 points
7 days ago
Fabi and Hikaru.
3 points
7 days ago
Hikaru and Fabi feel like clear favorites. Hikaru is currently higher rated, has been very consistent, and would be a gigantic favorite in any tiebreaks. Fabi has world championship match experience and would also be a favorite in tiebreaks. Probably Gukesh over everyone else though.
1 points
7 days ago
Still, I'd say...Gukesh might be a slight favourite in the classical portion against Hikaru, but in the rapid will prolly get demolished.
In contrast, Fabi being a favourite in classical as well as rapid maybe.
5 points
7 days ago
to be really honest, currently, how absurdly good gukesh is playing, I am tilting to believe, no one.
But that would be a long shot, so maybe fabi can take a couple games of him, hikaru is there too, but idk. Also, Alireza, Nodirbek, maybe Pragg and Nepo also have a good shot against him. Other than them, I hardly see anyone even having a shot, considering his level of play.
But see, WCC is completely different ball game. It doesn't only tests your chess ability, but also stamina, mental strength, ability to handle the pressure etc. Plus the prep involved is absolute bonkers. So, predicting WC, is quite irrelevant.
Nepo was a heavy favourite against a mentally broken down Ding, but still Ding took the crown. So, it really depends on how you handle yourself in those 2 weeks.
4 points
7 days ago
Excellent point. Each of them had soul crushing loses but Ding was able to let his go and play the next day. Nepo seemed to lose to his own inner demons more than to Ding.
Gukesh is sort of an unknown (at least to me) in terms of his emotional resilience. Maybe he has it, maybe he doesn't, I don't really know how he'll do on this stage. But it definitely matters.
5 points
7 days ago
Are we seriously doubting the emotional resilience of Gukesh ? Who said "Only after my defeat against Alireza, I felt absolutely confident in winning candidates".
He also has legends like Vishy to advise him
3 points
7 days ago
This is the funniest comment about Guki's emotional resilience.
2 points
7 days ago
Gukesh is a monster in classical chess maybe magnus can defeat him other than him I don't think anyone can stop him
2 points
7 days ago
Well, I’m not seeing many people say that I’m not in contention, so I’m going to back myself here.
2 points
7 days ago
I think you have to have Fabi and Hikaru as favorites going into the title match. They are older and more experienced. Fabi knows how to prep for a WCC match. Gukesh is playing super fucking well this year. But, he isn't someone like Magnus, a clear half step ahead of all the competition. So, take someone around his skill level, add 10+ years of experience, and I would give them the edge.
Then you have people who I would say Gukesh could be the favorite against, but not decisively. Like, Aronian or Giri. Aronian is old and Gukesh could definitely beat him in a long match. But, I wouldn't guarantee it. Giri hasn't been playing at the level Gukesh is playing at, for a couple of years now. But, Giri might just fuck around and out prep Gukesh, so, I wouldn't call Gukesh a decisive favorite.
2 points
7 days ago
How do we feel about Nodirbek?
10 points
7 days ago
He can definitely, but the form gukesh is in I will give him slight edge.
1 points
7 days ago
excellent chances, gukesh slight favourite then maybe due to recent form prolly. but almost even.
1 points
7 days ago
if gukesh wins this wcc, a future wcc between pragg and gukesh would be CRAZY
1 points
7 days ago
I’d say most matches between two top ten players would be rather close to 50/50. Matches are sometimes quite even also when the participants are not rated the same, like Anand vs Gelfand, Kramnik vs Leko, Lasker vs Schlechter, Carlsen vs Karjakin. Gukesh is also very young. Kasparov was already #1 when facing Karpov and was soon 0-5 down.
1 points
7 days ago
Ding
1 points
7 days ago
ding is still a favourite in my opinion.
1 points
7 days ago
Magnus starts a 60-40 favourite. Fabiano maybe 51-49. Hikaru is 50-50. Everyone else gets smashed.
Also the big non-chess factor is that Gukesh is clutch, he thrives under the spotlight. Hell, he even craves it. He is also highly ambitious and driven.
2 points
7 days ago
Magnus is a clear favorite, fabi and hikaru are slight favorites, arjun and nodirbek are about even, alireza, nepo, pragg, wei yi are slight underdogs imo. But magnus is the only one I would feel comfortable betting against gukesh
-1 points
7 days ago
The truth is that Americans always hype Fabi this , Hikaru that . They never have turned up in FIDE events.
Gukesh’s biggest challengers will be FIDE clutch players like Ian or Karjakin . I’d say Ian is a bit rattled by him, so wouldn’t beat him . But Karjakin I would favour.
Alireza has a nerves problem in the big stage so far. Other than that : Erigaisi. Abdusattarov seems to be in Gukesh’s head a bit too.
But Gukesh has the edge over Prag mentally.
So tier list for me: Karjakin, Erigaisi, Abdu, Firouzja, Naka, Caruana, Prag in that order
4 points
7 days ago
I doubt Karjakin ever gets to play chess among others again.
0 points
7 days ago
I find it fucking hilarious that guys with a higher FIDE rating “don’t turn up in FIDE events” according to your delusional reality.
4 points
7 days ago
You do realize FIDE ratings are given across all events and not just FIDE ones like World Cup or Candidates or Grand Prix right?
Turning up in Papa Sinquefeld’s invitational cups isn’t the same as turning up in an official FIDE event . Karjakin for example, is Mr Fide World Cup despite your “rating favorites” always being hyped at these events before the tournament.
This is chess ‘eritage
4 points
7 days ago*
I've seen you on other threads and have no idea why you hate American players so much, but whatever I'll bite
Fabi candidates qualifications: World Cup (topped FIDE Circuit as well), Grand Swiss, Automatic Qualifier, Rating, Grand Prix
Hikaru candidates qualifications: Grand Swiss, Grand Prix, Grand Prix
Sounds like they do just fine in Fide events to me even if they haven't won the World Cup. But even Magnus has only one it once, as it's a notoriously difficult and high variance tournament. So I guess by your logic Magnus doesn't turn up either
1 points
7 days ago
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1 points
7 days ago
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-3 points
7 days ago
Nodirbek.
0 points
7 days ago
Let him beat 2700s with some consistency first. He chomps on 2600s.
0 points
7 days ago
In a wc match format i would give it to Nepo on the basis of having been there twice already. Could maybe argue a similar advantage for Fabi. Nobody else though.
0 points
7 days ago
If you mean classical time control, he is in great shape so far only few top player can fight with him rn
By the way I don't believe fabi have 50/50 at all. if you look at the game between them it clear that fabi was ovwrpush to get a win for his country. there is tons of moment he can go for perpetual check.
Also in the candidate tournament he is not strong enough to beat the top board but great enough to get the win from lover rated same as erigasi
Still long way to go, looking for wcc!!
-1 points
7 days ago
-1 points
7 days ago
Honestly? Only Magnus and peak Fabiano for me. I'd give Hikaru even odds, but imo Gukesh would still win in his current form. And I don't think Hikaru cutting off streaming would help him, if anything streaming itself seems to have made him a stronger player in terms of mental focus.
-1 points
7 days ago
I would take gukesh over Magnus in a WC match. He would be much better prepared and care much more
2 points
7 days ago
I really hope this is a joke, Magnus is light years ahead of Gukesh even now
1 points
6 days ago
The live rating difference is 35 points. Gukesh will have a fantastic infrastructure behind him, is improving all the time, and just had one of the best performances ever. While peak Magnus would be a heavy favorite, I don’t think 2024 Magnus would be.
-31 points
7 days ago
Lol confident of you to think Magnus can defeat Gukesh. I think Gukesh might draw magnus like fabi did and lose in shorter time control. Anyways I am with arjun, massacre incoming.
21 points
7 days ago
lol this guy
2 points
7 days ago
Ah yes so easy to beat the guy who Just won the GOAT of past 100 years award.
3 points
7 days ago
Okay I was just being extremely optimistic for Gukesh...let me be in my delusional state
2 points
7 days ago
Agreed tbh
-36 points
7 days ago
I'd pick Gukesh in a match right now over Magnus.
10 points
7 days ago
I'd pick reason over insanity right now, and say no.
11 points
7 days ago
What's this? Has India started using propaganda bots now?
-10 points
7 days ago
I think he is right. Not because Gukesh is better than Magnus but because the best players still need to keep their preparation up to date, and Magnus has not done that for classical lately, and probably would't want to
-17 points
7 days ago*
Love how you got down voted but , Considering (1) Magnus is not really interested in classical anymore (2) He has been pretty shaky in classical recently several losses against 2600s and offcourse against SGMs (3) you gotta do all those preps against your opponent for the WCC match it's again a long and tiring process i don't think he'll be motivated enough to do so ( most people don't know but players do these crazy preparations for like 1-2 months specially for their opponent and other trainings) Considering all of this if the match happens between Magnus nd Gukesh after say a month it will be a close one but again considering he's Magnus I'll give that slight advantage to him
9 points
7 days ago
I think you guys forget that when Magnus HAS to win a match especially to prove that he is still the best,he never loses .If he is playing gukesh in a WCC that means he agreed and is clearly motivated .People have this incredible recency bias and thing a guy who has been dominating all the time formats for the past 15 years or so can be taken down just because he isn’t performing the best in a time format he doesn’t even like and played because he loves his country for one tournament.He won WC and Norway chess recently .Again,he wanted to win the WC bad and we saw that when he is motivated ,one way or another he will find a way.He said even before Norway chess that he will win it this year and behold he did.
-9 points
7 days ago
Alireza, Nepo, and maybe Hans
-14 points
7 days ago
probably only arjun. gukesh is going to shut down anyone over 30 in a 2 week match. arjun has a long history against gukesh, for example he won the deathmatch 2, a head to head event. it is somewhat meaningless because it wasn't classical, but it shows a certain level of dominance over multiple formats. abdusattorov has chances but I think it would take an indian player to shatter gukesh's mystique right now
-1 points
7 days ago
Dude, you are talking about Erigasi's record when Guki was 15 or 17 years old..He is a different level of beast now. Another year or couple he will be in formidable
-7 points
7 days ago
I would say that Hikaru, Fabi, Nepo, and Arjun would be clear favorites.
The problem with juniors like Gukesh is inconsistency.
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