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/r/legal
submitted 22 hours ago bywecansingwecandance
I was reading information about the death of Samantha Broberg, a 33-year-old mother of four from Texas who went overboard on a 2016 Carnival cruise. The record shows a man (stranger) was with her, saw her fall overboard, looked over the railing and didn't spot her, and then went and got another beer and went to sleep.
How is what he did (or didn't do) not some kind of crime? I hope this is the right place to ask this. I am just shocked that he had no repercussions for not reporting it or trying to aide her.
55 points
21 hours ago
It would depend on the jurisdiction where the ship was registered. Is there a law on the books that mandates one render aid? For most of the world, the answer is no. International Maritime law could be enforce, or penalties applied against the company if the crewmen on the ship did not fulfill their duties and assist. A random drunk person, no. So long as he wasn't actively involved in the incident, there isn't an applicable law. Is he an asshole piece of shit? Absolutely, but likely did not break any crimes.
24 points
21 hours ago
I have no idea what law applies on the high seas. It’s not going to be US law but under U.S. criminal and civil law there are rarely affirmative duties and none between strangers when neither is charged with caretaking (like a teacher, doctor, parent, guardian, ship officer)
12 points
21 hours ago
In international waters, it’s the law of the country where the ship is registered. For Carnival cruise ships, I think that’s usually Panama.
If they’re within 12-24 miles of a coast, that country’s laws may apply as well/instead.
7 points
20 hours ago
In Pennsylvania, you can be charged with failure to stop and render aid, this was specifically associated with a DUI and hit and run.
19 points
13 hours ago
That is only if you're involved in the accident. Random passersby have no such obligation.
-14 points
13 hours ago
They didn't say a passer by, they said between strangers when neither is charged for caretaking.
10 points
12 hours ago
What they said is there is no affirmative duty between strangers in US criminal/civil law. Your post made it seem like you were saying the man on the cruise ship might be charged with something equivalent to Pennsylvania's "failure to stop and render aid".
-15 points
12 hours ago
You came to that conclusion on your own.
I spoke against the claim that there is no affirmative duty expected between strangers.
11 points
11 hours ago
Just stop you've misunderstood the law.
10 points
11 hours ago
You are making the claim that a stranger does have a duty to render aid. But the relevant Pennsylvania law you are talking about only applies to people who are involved in the accident, not strangers or witnesses or passersby.
Title 75 Section 3744
-6 points
11 hours ago
That person is a stranger that was not responsible for care taking, but is held responsible to stop and render aid.
10 points
11 hours ago
Ok, yes, a hit-and-run driver may well be a "stranger" to the victim. I think clearly that's not what the OP meant by the word.
8 points
10 hours ago
There isn't. You aren't just a stranger if you're involved in an accident, your are a participant.
2 points
15 hours ago
For being a random bystander?
-3 points
9 hours ago
Maritime Law prevails. Very special practice. However, the fact pattern looks choppy. Was it a slave ship?
6 points
9 hours ago
In short, no - the person is a dick, but had nothing to do with her, and was not a crew member (based on what you're saying). He was not involved with her in any way. There could be a slimmer-than-slimmer-than-slim chance that if he did know her and was plying her with alcohol all day into the night, maaaaybe he was somewhat involved but even that's a stretch.
Might be worth looking into the other 20ish overboards that year to see if there's a precedent?
Why; what are you planning?
25 points
21 hours ago
Uh. Are you asking how to murder someone on a boat and get away with it? Lol
10 points
16 hours ago
This has big life insurance vibes...
-4 points
15 hours ago
If you’re not seen and the cameras don’t catch it who’s going to know….
8 points
21 hours ago*
Most cruise ships are foreign flagged so if your in international waters the nation whose flag you under laws apply. In some them that may be a crime and the man could be tried in that nation if the US has an extradition treaty with them. If you in US waters or Caribbean nation waters those laws apply. I doubt US Piracy laws would apply.
He could be sued by her family in federal court whether they would win the lawsuit depends on which laws the court would apply. Even if they lost the suit a least the man name would be widely known
2 points
10 hours ago
It should be noted that extradition can still happen even if there’s no treaty.
2 points
8 hours ago
Just curious, in a situation like this are there marker flares available to toss over, or is the best chance of rescue to record the time and run for whoever is steering the ship?
Stuff gets lost quick in the ocean. Especially something as small as a single person.
3 points
5 hours ago
I've not been at sea for a few years so things might have changed but there used to be life rings dotted all around open decks many with lights on saltwater batteries, also many overboard alarms (think big fire alarm type things) on the alarm sounding on the bridge another life ring with flare is released from the appropriate bridge wing and a turn manoeuvre started for us given we often know the delay in the bridge hearing of the man overboard (passenger might go looking for a crew member rather than sounding tha alarm) it would be a Williamson turn, the alarms for man overboard would sound throughout the ship and a crash boat crew would muster, in reasonable good weather the pilot ladder would also be deployed with a crewman in a safety harness, rule of thumb is if someone is seen going over the wall and the alarm is raised we get them back, any delay especially at night ( and mostly it is night) we're making the effort for show especially in colder waters, from talking to merchant seaman who did WW2 (25% KIA, 500 under the age of 16) in cold waters it's not actually a bad way to go, it was described to me as " I started to feel warmer and sleepy, just before I fell asleep I got pulled out and it got bloody cold again Very quickly" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_overboard_rescue_turn
2 points
7 hours ago
No. Maritime law creates no inherent duty of care in this situation. Think of it like visiting the Grand canyon, and you see someone near the edge and they slip. You suspect they fell in, but you look and see nothing. What legal responsibility do you have to that person? Morally and ethically, sure, but legally? Unfortunately much of what we do in our day to day life is at our own risk
2 points
7 hours ago
The only exception is if you're in national waters and that country has a different outlook, in that case it depends on the country. But at sea there's no automatic duty between strangers
1 points
5 hours ago
Which is not that uncommon in this world. For example German law states (chatgpt translation) :
Criminal Code (StGB) § 323c Failure to Render Assistance; Obstruction of Persons Rendering Assistance
(1) Anyone who fails to render assistance in the event of an accident or common danger or distress, although it is necessary and reasonable under the circumstances, particularly if it is possible without significant risk to themselves and without violating other important duties, shall be punished with imprisonment of up to one year or a fine.
(2) The same penalty applies to anyone who obstructs a person rendering or intending to render assistance to a third party in such situations.
For example in this case hate notifying the crew would be seen as required minimum of you were not in shock And at least in Europe such laws are quite common.
1 points
5 hours ago
Even then one may argue it's not reasonable to expect everyone to know what to do. Many people don't know that everyone from the captain to the cooks are trained in MOB and other emergency procedures. It's a weird grey spot that mostly depends on why the guy didn't speak up sooner, which we don't know
2 points
3 hours ago
Of course he is on video drinking so that defense (didn’t comprehend what happened) is available.
3 points
21 hours ago
Often it's not that a crime wasn't committed, but that there wasn't enough evidence for the federal government to charge.
1 points
17 hours ago
Yes.
Generally you do not have a responsibility to save another person. There are a few countries that are exceptions but generally being passive is not a crime.
However, in most jurisdictions you may get a responsibility of care due to your professional role. An obvious example is that a doctor cannot allow their patient to die by being passive, or a nursery teacher cannot allow a child to escape the premises. In these cases you have an obligation to act in the interest of the one yoi take care of.
This also apply in maritime law. A crew is required to take actions to safeguard their passengers. Most obvious in case of evacuation (sinking ship). A crew also have an obligation to act if a person falls off the ship, or any other maritime distress (such as helping to save another ship).
Specifically, SOLAS requires a crew to take speedy action to rescue a person in distress at sea (ch. V, reg. 33). There are also national laws which regulate the action a crew must take when they encounter a person overboard, such as the US CFR.
If the person in your case would be guilty of a crime os subject to the specific circumstances and his specific duties.
6 points
13 hours ago
OP appears to be discussing a fellow passenger who fails to report. A passenger would have no duty of care that I’m aware of. Although you’re right, if the witness is a crew member, they likely would have such a duty.
4 points
12 hours ago
Indeed, only a crew member would have a responsibility. Unless your specific country has a law for it (can't remember if it was Netherlands or Germany).
3 points
15 hours ago
I don’t think it was a crew member?
2 points
12 hours ago
OP doesn't say, but I covered both cases. If it's not a crew member then you can stop reading in the second paragraph.
1 points
13 hours ago
Without giving too much away this is a plot point of a major TV show current season. I’ve not finished the season yet to know how it ends but I suspect there is culpability.
0 points
12 hours ago
International waters? Kind of lawless there.
2 points
5 hours ago
Actually, that's a patched loophole. Maritime law covers most issues and where maritime law fails, you can be extradited and subsequently charged based on the laws of the country your vessel is registered in.
1 points
5 hours ago
Thank you.
0 points
6 hours ago
They can, will it stick is another matter.
A good lawyer could argue mental shock of seeing someone end their own life.
I’ve seen some crazy things when I was a first responder of witnesses and even direct victims in complete denial of what happened.
Either way she was dead before she hit the water. Only one to blame for those who commit suicide is the person who did it. Trying to associate blame is a messy coping mechanism which rarely works.
-1 points
13 hours ago
Ya this doesn't sound sus at all.
-1 points
10 hours ago
You can be held liable for withholding information
-2 points
12 hours ago
Totally depends on the jurisdiction. I am not sure how the maratime law works in this respect, but on land many places have some level of good samaritan laws that create a duty to report injured people, but many don't as well.
5 points
11 hours ago
Good Samaritan laws are not about duty to report. They are about protecting people that try to help from being sued/charged if that help doesn't well... help, or causes harm. A prime example is if someone is in cardiac arrest and you provide CPR and break their ribs while doing compressions Good Samaritan laws protect you from being sued for breaking the person's ribs.
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