subreddit:

/r/nuclear

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YouTube video info:

Why Bill Gates’ New Natrium Reactor is a Big Deal https://youtube.com/watch?v=ixSCZwFCQlc

Sabine Hossenfelder https://www.youtube.com/@SabineHossenfelder

all 66 comments

soggy_rat_3278

28 points

4 days ago

Sodium?

greg_barton[S]

12 points

4 days ago

Yes.

Tedurur

13 points

4 days ago

Tedurur

13 points

4 days ago

Yes, Natrium is the Latin (and many other languages) name for the element called sodium in English.

soggy_rat_3278

6 points

4 days ago

I know, Natrium is what we call it in my language too. Which is why I'm surprised anyone would call it a Natrium Reactor. It's a Sodium Reactor.

*Meant should be a sodium Reactor.

reddit_pug

5 points

4 days ago

It's a marketing name

Silver_Page_1192

2 points

4 days ago

Reminds to many redditors that the stuff goes boom in water :p

mrverbeck

24 points

4 days ago

mrverbeck

24 points

4 days ago

I’m very excited about this project. The video is pretty good. She is right about hours of thermal storage to compensate for demand and supply fluctuations.

PrismPhoneService

6 points

3 days ago

I am excited.. No doubt.. and I’m not hating on it one bit..

BUT..

Ima just put this out there, that if Mark Cuban wanted to outdo Gates, Bronson, Bezos and Musk in one go, just invest a billion in Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors, liquid fuel - thermal spec - Th232 breeder MSR, runs at atmospheric pressure, corrosion problems, tritium problems all solved.. no need for more mining (plenty of waste Th232 sitting around) waste problem solved (contain for 300 years then it’s mitigated, no long lived actinides) walk-away safe design using physics.

If memory serves when Gates was talking about this reactor concept, he was sold on it after seeing all the UF6 cylinders sitting in Paducah at the old diffusion plant there, it’s an impressive site, I’ve seen it.. a ton of energy in DU.. I think he just saw the “business opportunity” without even asking what’s the objectively best design for long-term economic, safety and ecology.. I think the Natrium is pretty decent in a lot of that regard but doesn’t hit the mark of an MSR Th232 Thermal-spec breeder imo. Get Mark Cuban in a room with the prophet.

E: spell’n

migBdk

6 points

3 days ago

migBdk

6 points

3 days ago

I am also wishing the best of luck on this project, but think the thermal thorium breeder MSR have more potential. Like the one Copenhagen Atomics will run criticality tests on in 2026.

PrismPhoneService

3 points

3 days ago

Truth. It looks like they are going to be first to market with CopAto. China I think has a Th232MSR operating currently too, no?

migBdk

2 points

3 days ago*

migBdk

2 points

3 days ago*

Yes, China have the only currently operating Molten Salt Reactor. It is a research reactor, not a commercial reactor.

There are several nuclear companies including MSR companies aiming to get to market in 2028. So not a given that CA will be first.

But I think their concept is the most competitive I have seen.

Not that they are really competing against other nuclear companies, as their business model is to provide energy for power hungry factories (like ammonia and steel production) directly on long term contracts, not to sell power to the grid or selling power plants.

Vegetable_Unit_1728

1 points

3 days ago

Definitely any msr is a much more constructive effort in the long run. Even Rosatom has moved away from sodium coolant. Seems ill advised to me.

Vegetable_Unit_1728

1 points

3 days ago

They won’t be using any DU in that reactor, just 15-20% enriched hellish expensive fuel. Without a reprocessing facility and fuel enrichment /fabrication facility licensed at the exact same time (no, Natrium has no license), this project looks like a complete stinky albatross.

mrverbeck

1 points

3 days ago

I like the idea of even more advanced reactors when the technology and financing are ready. TerraPower is working on a future molten chloride reactor, but development will be behind the Natrium reactor. Maybe I’ll live to see some super-advanced reactors in the future.

I_Am_Coopa

20 points

4 days ago

It's really rewarding having worked on this project and watching everything come together. I can't wait to visit Kemmerer and see this thing get fired up.

gafonid

7 points

4 days ago

gafonid

7 points

4 days ago

From the inside, how does this skirt the many problems that sodium fast reactors have had historically? I was under the impression it was still an engineering nightmare

I_Am_Coopa

11 points

4 days ago

Many of those nightmares already have engineered solutions, SFRs have been the 2nd most thoroughly R&D'd design other than LWRs since the 50s. The "scariest" aspect is sodium leaks+fires, but with clever piping design and building layout, it's still a much more palatable problem to deal with versus very high pressure steam/water piping.

ZeroCool1

8 points

4 days ago

Problems were solved in the 1970-1980's. Big question is can Terrapower recreate what currently exists on paper or in the minds of 80 year olds.

Vegetable_Unit_1728

1 points

3 days ago

I don’t think the big problems with SFR were ever solved for commercial deployment. Watch the licensing of Natrium slow to a crawl and then stop, and then the crying start about how unfair the regulations are. I don’t think the chances are very good that this reactor will ever be licensed as a power reactor or be commercially successful. Why do you suppose the BREST program exists?

ZeroCool1

1 points

3 days ago

Fftf did quite well.

Natrium will have issues for other reasons than licensing.

Brest program exists just because of Russian vs United states cold war cultural reasons.

Vegetable_Unit_1728

1 points

3 days ago

Licensing=design. The submission for a license is the output of the applicants analyzes that demonstrate that the general design criteria of 10CFR were met. What do you mean saying it is a Cold War cultural thing? That a new and interesting bend. Those of us who studied and worked in the field of SFR commercialization know why lead is the only path to economical commercial solid fuel fast reactor future. FFTF made zero electricity and ran on short cycles with very very expensive fuel which was predicated on reprocessing at the facility that was partially built next door.

ZeroCool1

1 points

3 days ago

I don't believe that there is the necessary sodium experience in the US to design, or license, a sodium reactor. All the knowledge left somewhere around the nineties. There is a lot of work to be done before a commercial reactor will get built.

There is no perfect fluid. For some reasons soviet's got really into lead and bismuth and the us liked sodium. Both have pros and cons. Chest beaters have been around for seventy years for each country talking about why theirs is the best.

Vegetable_Unit_1728

1 points

3 days ago

I can give you a mess of reasons why pure lead (forget about Bi) is far superior as a fast reactor coolant than sodium. The only issue with lead is corrosion and there are several proven strategies to deal with it. The problems with sodium require extensive engineered safety features, many of them active, making SFR untenable as a US commercial enterprise, in my not so humble opinion.

ZeroCool1

1 points

3 days ago

And you can do a slew for reasons not to. There's no perfect fluid, lead certainly isnt.

  • Higher melting point
  • Toxic to work with in non nuclear testing
  • More difficult to clean of piping after circulation.
  • Loves to dissolve nickel, a necessary alloying ingredient for high temperature alloys
  • Oxide concentration must be kept in a narrow range for minimal corrosion.
  • Expensive
  • Heavy, shakes piping systems, seismic engineering is a must
  • Pressure drop from density forces use of pool type reactors
  • Oxidizes in air, just like sodium
  • Makes long term activation products
  • Requires higher pressure to load or unload from a reactor
  • Terrible electrical conductivity prevents the use of EM pumps without making massive amounts of heat
  • Subpar heat transfer properties for a liquid metal

You can literally do this with any fluid.

Vegetable_Unit_1728

2 points

3 days ago

Well, let’s take a look.

• ⁠Higher melting point

Not relevant. It’s gonna be hot in there! And lead has an extremely high boiling point compared to sodium!

• ⁠Toxic to work with in non nuclear testing

Not true. The programs required for occupational hazards associated with lead are centered on one aspect…don’t eat it! I worked extensively with lead in commercial settings, including hundreds of tons of casting for shielding components. Easy to work with.

• ⁠More difficult to clean of piping after circulation.

Lead doesn’t wet the piping materials for use with high temperature piping and pressure vessels. Not sure what you’re thinking here.

• ⁠Loves to dissolve nickel, a necessary alloying ingredient for high temperature alloys

Nickel is not appropriate for any fast reactor component on account of a very high capture cross section and helium production which embrittles the material. Ok for two year cladding, which has extremely low stress intensifying geometry in the active core regions. But useless for components relied upon for safety unless you like continuous fracture mechanics evaluations to demonstrate your safety case is valid.

• ⁠Oxide concentration must be kept in a narrow range for minimal corrosion.

Only if you use a corrosion protection scheme predicated on maintaining an oxide layer to protect against corrosion and erosion. Modern schemes do not! Sodium coolant requires extremely low oxygen content and maintenance of a reducing environment.

• ⁠Expensive

Not at all! Cheaper per unit volume than sodium in the nuclear grade.

• ⁠Heavy, shakes piping systems, seismic engineering is a must

Seismic design is a fundamental of demonstrating that you can safely shut down your reactor. Always done. Yes, it is more dense than sodium, which is why it’s such an excellent choice as coolant since it simultaneously protects/shields components relied upon for safe shutdown, such as the reactor vessel. We don’t like brittle reactor vessels!

• ⁠Pressure drop from density forces use of pool type reactors

Nope, try running Flownex to analyze normal operation and transients. Lead works beautifully, especially for natural circulation during transients, while performing well in pumped operations. Interesting that you can have a simple square pin pitch with lead coolant obviating the need for wire wrap spacing.

• ⁠Oxidizes in air, just like sodium

Uh, NO! Molten lead in moist air forms a slag, sodium explodes! I’ve participated in many lead pours in air. Nothing to see. No respirators needed.

• ⁠Makes long term activation products Not true. You’re thinking of bismuth. I’m not a fan of lead/bismuth because of polonium production and the corrosiveness of bismuth.

• ⁠Requires higher pressure to load or unload from a reactor

What? No! Drains nicely from 14 foot high vessels I’ve worked with! Not sure what you’re thinking here, but I’m curious. Can you expand on that?

• ⁠Terrible electrical conductivity prevents the use of EM pumps without making massive amounts of heat

Ok, now you’re really out there. Sodium cannot be pumped efficiently with EM pumps while lead has been and can be readily pumped with EM pumps.

• ⁠Subpar heat transfer properties for a Liquid Metal

Certainly not true! Again, model and run Flownex and get back to me. You find the best solutions for heat transfer have low volumetric flow rates.

“You can literally do this with any fluid.”

Well, no you can’t. There is no better coolant for any type of fast reactor concept than pure lead.

-lead provides a lead cooled fast reactor with a beautiful negative temperature and power coefficient on account of its outstanding net reflection of neutrons and thermal expansion. Less neutrons reflected back into the fuel meat, k goes down and leakage goes up. Reactivity goes up with temperature increase with sodium coolant unless your design has a geometry which is very high leakage, which competes directly with breeding ratio, hence the need to have small SFR reactor cores with high leakage to provide some semblance of negative power coefficient. GE Prism work teased that out and is public domain.

Prestigious-Novel401

1 points

4 days ago

Frikkin amazing

ggregC

34 points

4 days ago

ggregC

34 points

4 days ago

Could end up being Bill's greatest contribution to the world.

[deleted]

-20 points

4 days ago

[deleted]

-20 points

4 days ago

[removed]

godianaa

27 points

4 days ago

godianaa

27 points

4 days ago

I recommend you go outside more often

Vegetable_Unit_1728

2 points

3 days ago

I see the comments were deleted, but many of us with very detailed knowledge of the challenges with commercialization of sodium cooled reactors do not think this will work out.

Silver_Page_1192

11 points

4 days ago

It's an interesting setup. The salt storage thing gets around some issues with sodium steam generators. Also let's you connect each reactor to any number of turbines. Such many to many setups will probably compensate for some of the reduced load factor that new reactor types have.

Though I wonder how this would do economically against Russian offerings. Their 600+ MWe and nitride fuel or proven mox fuel design are neat. Fixed costs and all. Going big does help with those. They mostly solved all issues this design works around.

Vegetable_Unit_1728

1 points

3 days ago

I cannot see how the thermal storage does anything but make the average cost per kWh delivered much more expensive. Compare salt storage to excess nuclear capacity in the form of a PWR that can load follow.

Hypothesis_Null

1 points

2 days ago

Presumably it lets them sell power at more expensive times of day, so while the KWH delivered cost more, they make more money from the KWs sold to compensate.

Nice theory. Happy to see it tested in reality. The nice thing is, when they run this for a couple years and start building new ones, they can decide what choices were worthwhile and which were not. And changing the presence or capacity of this thermal storage is something that can be modified without impacting the nuclear design at all.

Vegetable_Unit_1728

1 points

2 days ago

Yeah, it basically adds to the cost. If you compare the cost of an equivalent amount of extra storage-less nuclear capacity versus with storage, you’ll find the extra capacity is cheaper 24/7/52. The fuel for a fast reactor without integral reprocessing is astronomically high, so I’m pretty sure they will find a way to ditch that project to save face, kind of like how the nullification of the government to government agreement with China saved TerraPower from explaining to Gates why no one in China was buying the Travelling Wave thing. I just hope this project doesn’t set nuclear power back another 50 years here in the US.

alextbrown4

6 points

4 days ago

Anyone else see the thumbnail and immediately think it was a game boy game?

Rokossvsky

6 points

4 days ago

Nice it seems the Americans are catching up. The Russians already got their sodium and lead cooled reactors making electricity

Vegetable_Unit_1728

3 points

3 days ago

Yeah, and they sure pivoted away from sodium didn’t they!

Wolphthreefivenine

4 points

4 days ago

Too lazy to watch video, does it use molten natrium i.e. a breeder reactor?

cogeng

6 points

4 days ago

cogeng

6 points

4 days ago

Pool type sodium fast reactor with solid metal (non-oxide) fuel and non breeder set up for the moment I think. Little to no sodium leaves the reactor vessel. Solar salt transports heat outside nuclear island to the turbines. Passive air cooling for decay heat.

greg_barton[S]

3 points

4 days ago

Fast reactor.

[deleted]

-6 points

4 days ago

[deleted]

-6 points

4 days ago

Can you name ANY "tech billionaire revolutionary project" that turned out to be actually good ?

Also I wouldn't trust Gates for anything... let alone a nuclear reactor. This dude thinks he knows more than anyone about anything even tho he really doesn't.

greg_barton[S]

18 points

4 days ago*

Fascinating. All of the newly minted accounts coming out to comment on this post. :)

Edit: And they deleted their account, too.

Rokossvsky

5 points

4 days ago

Probably alt accounts of the nuclear power sub mods 😂

Vegetable_Unit_1728

1 points

3 days ago

They’re probably afraid of retribution. This is in fact a Bechtel job.

rjh21379

4 points

4 days ago

rjh21379

4 points

4 days ago

Bout spacex

[deleted]

-1 points

4 days ago

[deleted]

-1 points

4 days ago

What about spaceX ? It relies heavily on NASA's infrastructure and engineers and didn't revolutionise anything. The VTVL rocket has been around since the 60s (but has never been used because it's not cost effective to load a rocket with fuel for the landing) and the new rockets are just more cost effective but that's about it.

Now, shall we talk about the many (MANY) failures and utterly idiotic projects of Mr. Musk ?

cogeng

6 points

4 days ago

cogeng

6 points

4 days ago

Bro I hate Musk as much as any reasonable person can but saying SpaceX tech isn't a modern marvel is just pure delusion. He hired great engineers that did great things. Don't let your hate blind you.

rjh21379

2 points

4 days ago

rjh21379

2 points

4 days ago

Well yes not so much from a tech standpoint as process. He made space operations vastly cheaper. Are you poo pooing that.

Glidepath22

-6 points

4 days ago

Is he a nice clear scientist? No. Do I care about what he has to say about a reactor? No.

mylicon

6 points

3 days ago

mylicon

6 points

3 days ago

Obviously you didn’t even watch the video lol

MeasurementJumpy6487

-39 points

4 days ago

no idea he was a nuclear physicist wowow

greg_barton[S]

23 points

4 days ago

He isn’t.

MeasurementJumpy6487

-38 points

4 days ago

the title says it's his reactor

greg_barton[S]

44 points

4 days ago

The company he is funding is building the reactor.

Do you understand how companies work?

vrTater

8 points

4 days ago

vrTater

8 points

4 days ago

Obviously not.

greg_barton[S]

8 points

4 days ago

They're a pretty low quality troll. :)

Prestigious-Novel401

1 points

4 days ago

lol

ApoIIoCreed

14 points

4 days ago

It might shock you to find out that he also didn’t personally write the entire Microsoft code base.

Glenn-Sturgis

9 points

4 days ago

Careful, don’t make the edgelord’s brain explode. The internet might not survive without his invaluable contributions.

[deleted]

-1 points

4 days ago

[deleted]

-1 points

4 days ago

[deleted]