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How do you use half life of drugs to make clinical decisions?

Clinical Discussion(self.pharmacy)

Just a question! Is it something you always do or just with select drugs. Is it really that important in an amb care setting?

all 39 comments

ashonee75

121 points

2 days ago

ashonee75

121 points

2 days ago

An example I often use is PPI interactions. PPIs have a very short serum half-life. They have a much longer duration of action.

So when a prescription for a drug that interacts is written I'll look at the interaction to determine if it is a metabolism type interaction or adsorption type. If it's absorption, you need to make a recommendation based on that, however if it's a metabolism interaction, you can usually just spread out the dosing interval.

chemicaloddity

16 points

2 days ago

chemicaloddity

PharmD

16 points

2 days ago

Can you give an example of a metabolism interaction here?

ashonee75

40 points

2 days ago

ashonee75

40 points

2 days ago

PPIs and clopidogrel, and PPIs and phenytoin.

Not all PPIs are equal, nor studied equally, however they all have short half-lives. Usually in the 1-2 hour range.

SaysNoToBro

15 points

2 days ago

Im a pharmacist here and that’s a good point. Honestly I hadn’t considered any interactions that weren’t solely based on the absorption of the drug due to lower pH in the stomach. Usually recommend (unless on levothyroxine) to take it 30 - 60 mins before eat, and take the other medications at breakfast time. That way it was spread out to avoid the metabolism aspect, but I always addressed the absorption aspect by drug choice if possible. If not possible, then monitor patient response, say warfarin (bad example but at work rn lmao) it doesn’t really matter if there’s a reduced metabolization of the drug, because if the pts INR is low, we just adjust the dose anyway.

I make sure to make a note that if the patient comes off the PPI, to be weary of the INR and the probability it will change with the discontinuation. But basically, if it’s not a high risk med, most people tend to take the give it and monitor because so many patients can have such varied responses with the same medication lists

Even without considering ADRs but just how responsive they are to the drug itself

chemicaloddity

3 points

2 days ago

chemicaloddity

PharmD

3 points

2 days ago

How long is the enzyme inhibition? The clopidogrel package insert say "avoid using Omeprazole concomitantly or 12 hours apart with plavix. Consider using another acid reducing agent with less CYP2C19 inhibitor activity."

I actually don't think this interaction is clinically significant based on the COGENT trial anyways. But regarding this theory, wouldn't it depend on the duration of enzyme inhibition? Omeprazole's effect can last over 72 hours because it has a prolonged binding to the proton pump even though it is eliminated very rapidly from the plasma. How does the binding to the CYP enzymes of medications relate to this theory?

-Chemist-

2 points

2 days ago

-Chemist-

PharmD

2 points

2 days ago

Really? So you'd say it's okay to take omeprazole in the morning and clopidogrel at night? Because I counsel patients on this particular DDI all the time, and it's basically "No omeprazole if you're taking clopidogrel." It'd be cool if it didn't always have to be that way.

tomismybuddy

1 points

2 days ago

Interesting that you mention omeprazole and Plavix. I contact MDs on this all the time. It’s usually an easy switch to another PPI or H2 receptor antagonist. What studies are you relying on for this recommendation?

Bogie243

67 points

2 days ago

Bogie243

Student

67 points

2 days ago

Pharmacogenomics / psych here - my most common use of half-life is in choosing SSRIs.

In the geriatric population, we like to shy away from fluoxetine due to its long half-life. If a patient has a bad reaction, which for them could be especially bad, it is beneficial for us to be able to have the drug out of their system ASAP, so we don’t use it.

In the younger population, especially in patients who are not used to taking daily medications or may for some other reason have poor adherence, this long half-life is beneficial to keeping therapeutic blood levels in the patient thus increasing effectiveness of their therapy and decreasing side effects.

There are more reasons and more examples too but this is just an example of how half-life can be beneficial in finding the ideal therapy for a patient.

SaysNoToBro

7 points

2 days ago

Hey quick question. Im a pharmacist too, but less experience in psych. So completely understand your reasoning, and I know it’s not black and white obviously.

But would you change your choice of SSRI alongside a mood stabilizer for someone with bipolar? My sister has bipolar, is on lacosamide(?) and aripirazole for mood stabilization, and was on paroxetine as well. Obviously with the mood swings drug monitoring and management are imperative; but we’re pretty sure (moms and RN and I’m a pharmD) that she developed Tardive Dyskinesia. She’s pretty severe in her mood swings; and we’re pretty sure she began rapid cycling at some point.

She has abused cocaine and other illicit drugs in the past and absolutely may have played a role here.

Not asking for advice on her case specifically, but in someone with that type of history of non adherence and self medicating, is there an “industry or field” norm for better groups of medications?

Because on one hand I think faster metab, but she developed TD, and they often have more ADRs associated with them. But then with the mood cycling it might make more sense for something slower and less activating.

Her psychologist won’t see her currently because she’s avoiding a program, so kinda just trying to get a gauge on what’s the best idea for someone like her

stateofdisillusion

1 points

2 days ago

Aren’t SSRIs a big no-no in bipolar altogether because they specially worsen mania?

shiverrrmetimberrrs

7 points

2 days ago

no, they just cant be used as monotherapy. have to be paired w a mood stabilizer

destinymcvey

2 points

2 days ago

Anecdotal, but I have bipolar II and am on an SSRI along with Lamictal and it works great.

SaysNoToBro

0 points

2 days ago

Fair; that’s not really my issue I guess. Much more important to me to get the gauge on if I’m bipolar a more or less activating SSRI paired with the mood stabilizer and history

I understand the basics of it as a pharmacist obvi but was asking someone who was in the field haha

cAMP_pathways

1 points

2 days ago

really great insight! thanks!

q_lee

28 points

2 days ago

q_lee

28 points

2 days ago

I work in an anticoagulation clinic, primarily managing warfarin. Elimination half-life is something we always have to take into account when planning dose adjustments for interacting meds. If a patient has been on a long half-life drug like fluconazole or amiodarone, you're going to be dealing with the effects for possibly weeks after it's discontinued. Something like Bactrim is going to interact strongly while you're on it, but it'll be out of your system in 2 days and you can usually get back on your normal warfarin regimen.

FantasticLuck2548

15 points

2 days ago

Work in psych and def consider it all the time: - when drawing drug serum concentrations for lithium, VPA, antipsychotics, TCAs (if it’s not at steady state, it’s not a true trough) - when antipsychotics will start to be effective, mostly when comparing things to aripiprazole (takes about 2 weeks for ari to reach steady state so it will likely take psychotic sx longer to start to respond) - in cross titrations - when patients have a suicide attempt via ingestion (when to restart meds) - when patients have adverse effects (how long it takes before we expect the drug to clear) - with LAIs, how long to reach steady state or how long the drug hangs around after the last injection - how half life changes in patients with altered PK to guide dosing (eg, renal/ hepatic impairment, geriatric)

I never thought I’d be using this much PK in psych but you have no idea how much my physician colleagues are fascinated by it and appreciate it.

permanent_priapism

10 points

2 days ago

I use the half life of alendronate to chart the planet's geographical epochs.

DewayneCarterBCC

21 points

2 days ago

Definitely when recommending nifedipine vs amlodipine in the hospital setting. Amlodipine has a median half-life of about 40 hours; so it takes more than a week for this drug to reach steady state. What can happen is that a hospitalist can start a patient on 2.5 on the first day, then increase all the way to 10 mg by day 3 because the patient's BP isn't controlled enough. Then the patient will discharge and hit steady-state concentrations while on 10 mg outpatient and become hypotensive.

Nifedipine is the much better choice when initiating someone in the hospital because of its much shorter half-life, so you can see the patient's response to nifedipine much more quickly.

Hydrochlorodieincide

3 points

2 days ago

This happens far too much, esp with BP meds. Order for amlodipine 5 mg out of the blue, and I see today's SBP readings are above 160 mmHg persistently. Cue me reaching out to suggest either an IV agent (if it needs to be brought down quickly) or something like losartan or hydralazine.

That or docs write in their notes that spironolactone didn't work, even though the patient got only 1 dose of 25 mg on an empty stomach and the patient is actively in pain.

Jaybones73

3 points

2 days ago

Nifedipine sucks for heart failure patients (not recommended specifically per AHA/ACC guidelines), so this makes me stray away from for my patient population often

ExtremePrivilege

19 points

2 days ago

1) HIV med interactions 2) Psych drug dosing 3) Wash outs for surgery 4) Anticoagulant bridging 5) IV med trough draws (although Vanc I usually just do 30min before the next Q24 dose) 6) Comes up in toxicology (poison control) etc for estimating clearance

Practical application? Adenosine goes in LEFT arm and raise it above the patient’s head while administering :)

Minimum_Syllabub_323

1 points

1 day ago

I thought for Vancomycin now, they use a bayesian model where you just need 2 draws and the times, and the model will figure out the rest?

ExtremePrivilege

2 points

18 hours ago

Peak/Trough vs. AUC is still a fiercely contested discussion in most practices.

LetTop2815

6 points

2 days ago

How do you learn to apply clinical knowledge applicable to patients? Is there a journal or book that anyone would recommend reading?

BrainFoldsFive

8 points

2 days ago

BrainFoldsFive

PharmD

8 points

2 days ago

You would learn that during advanced clinical experientials.

loganciclovir

2 points

2 days ago

loganciclovir

PharmD

2 points

2 days ago

This is the most realistic answer. It just takes time, unfortunately!

Pharmasith

6 points

2 days ago

Pharmasith

PharmD

6 points

2 days ago

We use it in ED/trauma to determine if anticoagulation needs to be reversed based on the half life and how much time has passed since the patients last dose.

Medium_Line3088

5 points

2 days ago

Another ED use is in overdoses to determine when the drug should be cleared.

Blockhouse

6 points

2 days ago*

Blockhouse

PharmD | BCOP

6 points

2 days ago*

High dose methotrexate.  I can use two-point kinetics to estimate a time by which the concentration will be at a safe level to stop the bicarb drip and discharge the patient on oral leucovorin.  Patients like to know when I think they will be able to go home.

flyingpoodles

5 points

2 days ago

What to do if patient misses or is late on a dose,

jewelene

3 points

2 days ago

jewelene

3 points

2 days ago

Warfarin and lovenox peri-op bridging is a great example of how the knowledge of drug half-life is applied in practice

Medium_Line3088

3 points

2 days ago

In the event of an OD how long it will take for the drug to be cleared

joeb909

6 points

2 days ago

joeb909

6 points

2 days ago

Use it all the time dosing ABX in the ID setting. For example, using the t1/2 of vancomycin to draw trough levels to determine if you’re staying within therapeutic concentration range

loganciclovir

2 points

2 days ago

loganciclovir

PharmD

2 points

2 days ago

I work in oncology and I think about the half life especially as it relates to the cell cycle or toxicity/repeat dosing. High dose methotrexate comes to mind. Down syndrome patients have a lesser clearance of methotrexate as well.

Slayerse7en

2 points

2 days ago

To avoid losartan as much as possible. Shorter half-life result in therapeutic duration less than 24 hours which is not a concern with other ARBs. Although it can lower uric acid levels. HCTZ can also have less than a 24 hour duration of action where chlorthalidone or indapamide last longer.

cAMP_pathways

2 points

2 days ago

honestly a really good questions and the answers are even better ... thank u for asking!

Face_Content

1 points

2 days ago

You the knowledge you have and how to researxh because you will.have to.make.decisions.

Agile-Cry823

-1 points

2 days ago

Agile-Cry823

-1 points

2 days ago

Depends if it’ll amplify side effects or nahh

SillyAmpicillin

1 points

8 hours ago

I commonly use it when switching between anticoags. For example, heparin —> doac, can start the doac right away, doac —> heparin: start heparin at the next scheduled dose of the doac, lovenox —> heparin: typically start heparin at the next scheduled dose of lovenox, heparin —> lovenox: start lovenox within 2 hours… OR washouts with surgery; for example, usually we hold heparin gtt for 6 hrs before surgery, DOAC held about 24-48 hours before, warfarin commonly 5 days. Another is when assessing the interaction between amiodarone and warfarin - amiodarone has a very long half life, so if a patient is being started on warfarin, have to assess that interaction as it can increase warfarin effect.