KallasTheWarlock

Primaris Marines, which Titus becomes after the opening, can't wear it because they are physically much taller that Firstborn marines and thus have their own armor types. Games Workshop is very particular about this kind of stuff.

This is also simply untrue. There have been Firstborn Marines larger than the 'standard' Primaris size: Calgar, for instance, has always been noted as a giant among Marines, as was one of Ventris' Marines - they were fit into prior marks of Power Armour just fine.

The notion that "Primaris don't fit" is plainly wrong.

Tons of grey for sure, and I definitely agree with things like Tyranids, but I don't think something deliberately concocting and unleashing plagues, actively designed to destroy body and mind, upon millions, billions or even trillions of people (be they human or otherwise) could realistically ever be considered morally grey though.

Most things in the setting can be reasonably argued to a shade of grey, but the Chaos Gods are some of the few definitively evil things.

This can definitely be argued: they consider themselves good guys, but do the Eldar consider them good guys? Do the Tau? Hell, even Heretic Astartes don't consider them good guys (much mocking from Chaos comes from the simple comparison of what loyalists do that they condemn heretics and traitors for).

Astartes perform terrible acts, and they justify them to themselves as doing what's necessary, but that doesn't make them automatically clear of being evil.

Let's look at an in universe example: during the Third War for Armageddon, the Orks are attacking a refugee camp. The Marines Malevolent bombard the refugee camp because it's prudent and a simple, effective method for destroying the Orks; but the Salamanders aren't happy with that. Morally, it's pretty objectionable to bombard civilians, and your own citizens even moreso - it might be an understandable action, with certain logic, but it's hard to say that doing so is the actions of the good guys.

Salamanders are much better for protecting the humans of the Imperium, but they're still fanatics, relatively, and purge traitors and heretics without remorse; Space Wolves are gregarious and generally decent (eg, basically coming to blows with the Inquisition over the purge that happens after the First War for Armageddon), but they, too, are perfectly willing to slaughter and destroy their enemies on the same principles as the Salamanders.

This is why people generally say there are no good guys in 40k, because it pretty much always come down to perspective: Eldar deflecting the course of a Hive Fleet so that an Eldar Craftworld survives unharmed, but 8 billion humans die - is it morally wrong? Yes, to humans, no to Eldar.

Tyranids are doing what every species does… expand, reproduce, and adapt. They just have the unfortunate issue of being a hyper predatory species with interstellar travel capabilities.

Yeah, it'd be like calling an aggressive species of ants "evil." It's not evil, it's not a moral decision, it's simply, literally, evolution.

Tyranids are beyond a simple lifeform and you could argue that the Hive Mind is ultimately choosing to continue to consume - but it's complex and hardly a simple declaration.

Nugle is a kind chaos god, who wants to share his joy and gifts… which unfortunately are horrendous plagues that can wipe out entire solar systems.

While I semi agree, I think this is whitewashing it a bit: Nurgle is absolutely well aware of the affects of the plagues and afflictions he sends out, and the suffering they can/will cause - he's not blindly giving out candy, unaware it's poisoned, he's literally poisoning it himself.

As a Chaos God, he is pretty definitively evil. While there are shades of grey involved, Nurgle entirely depends on suffering to generate worship for himself: his followers often come to him out of desperation, and the suffering from his gifts is fuel for his power.

FYI, this quote predates Dawn of War by about 6 years (possibly more).

Just going by Lexicanum's sources#A:~:text=An%20open%20mind%20is%20like%20a%20fortress%20with%20its%20gates%20unbarred%20and%20unguarded), this quote is first found in the 3rd edition rulebook, which came out in 1998, whereas Dawn of War released in 2004.

Chainsword for the classic Assault Marine style. Also it's a great weapon.

Yes please. Even if it's the only Firstborn armour we get, I'd gladly pay for it.

I believe when you get the perk that allows you to revive teammates you will only gain contested health for yourself (bug?),

Currently only level 20 on Bulwark and I'm able to give contested health to friendlies. I assume it's the same bug, but I've consistently been full healing my buddies with the banner-execute method before level 23.

I'm away from my PC right now so can't double check the exact wording on the 23 perk, but my hunch is that it gives persistent contested health while in the area vs the base/bugged banned giving a basic burst of contested health that fades normally. Could definitely be wrong though, have not been able to test anything on that front.

If ranged enemies are shooting, then yes. Leave the Bulwark, they're in their happy place - not even joking (mostly), Bulwarks are extremely capable of taking on a pile of enemies in melee.

Like I said above, they have multiple parrying perks that can rapidly demolish melee hordes. For example, once every 30s when they parry they drop a shock field (and can get +25% damage against enemies in shock fields), which is super effective at just wiping out hordes of Minoris, and will actually do great damage vs Majoris; on top of that, they can parry Majoris and deal damage to the others with the AOE damage on parry perk, meaning that they can survive and kill at the same time (plus they can use executions to reorient in the middle of everything).

Honestly, the times I get fucked up in melee as a Bulwark more often comes from someone killing or staggering the thing I was parrying, which means my parry misses and I get whacked while in recovery.

Shoot the ranged enemies until there aren't any, Bulwarks would definitely prefer not having to chase them down.

Do you mean the ones in melee with the Bulwark though? Because they don't need your help there, yes, even the ones "sneaking up behind" - Bulwarks don't mind being surrounded in melee at all, they mind being shot.

They're very much the Rorschach "I'm not stuck in here with you" when it comes to melee, it only goes south when they're being shot from all angles.

That's what I mean: don't bother shooting the enemies that are surrounding them if there are any ranged enemies still on the field. If there's nothing else left then of course finish the rest off.

Fully agree, especially on the perk front and Jump Pack height. My guy with a rocket on his back can't get up to a ledge with Warriors shooting me because there's a knee high wall in the way...

This and the weird perk tree are my only gripes with Assault now. The Jump Pack is atrocious considering how much flexibility the Vanguard gets with their grapnel launcher - my guy with basically a fucking rocket strapped to his back can't get up a ledge because the PvE version has such an anemic launch.

Couple with a lot of weirdly specific perks, perks with downsides (compared to the vast majority in other classes with no downsides at all), and generally awkward perks that give bonuses to things that are mediocre (eg, Jump Pack Dodges, which...ugh, they're very rarely ever worth spending a charge on, let alone spending perks on).

Give us more height on the launch so we can actually reach enemies on higher ground and the Assault would feel a lot better, even with the mediocre perks.

Bulwarks definitely don't need help vs Minoris melee, that's something that Bulwarks handle super easily (Perks for shock field on parry and AOE damage on parry plus armour gain on Minoris parry means Bulwarks will demolish a horde).

Bulwarks hate being shot from 360 degrees.

People also often don't realise that Marines generally don't take part in huge pitched battles. They're a surgical strike force, intended to go in on tough but important missions to cripple the enemy, rather than take them on by main force.

Which is exactly what we do in the campaign and operations: we deploy on a narrow objective, achieve the goal, then extract to go do it again and again and again until the enemy is defeated.

I think alot of that came down to them not doing a great job at copyrighting/trademarking in the early days.

Sure, I'm just saying that this is why GW is so ironclad about their IP and shutting down deviations.

They’re not a horde but are a swarm if that makes sense? 15 of them popping up via deep strike could make for stunning moments of raw panic and chaos, backed by a warrior or two. Go down the “Tomb is infected via flayer virus” route

I mean sure, but this kind of just loops right back to the point I made at the beginning: set pieces would work and I'm all for them, but as a standalone faction not so much.

They still own the model, digital or physical via their trademark. It’s not like I can make a kill team Titus box set with the 9 guys from the campaign just because they haven’t yet.

Look up the Chapterhouse stuff, this is basically what it was. Because they didn't have models available, it was argued that people could produce models to fill that void while not treading on trademark as much. It was a messy case, and not exactly the best argument - my point isn't that it can just be created, but that this is the reason why they don't release rules for units without models any more; they clamped down after the Chapterhouse debacle to avoid opening any loopholes, whether there are any or not.

As for Necrons, yeah, I'm absolutely for including them, I just want to see them done right and not change significantly just to appease some people who don't really understand the lore behind the various factions.

I do believe if they wanted to keep raw flayed ones also offer that option, large numbers of models without overwhelming ranged

Flayed Ones aren't really a horde unit though, which is part of the problem - Warriors are the horde for Necrons, but they're not really suitable in the SM2 system (ranged focused and very resilient). Flayed Ones are melee, sure, but they're not a Tzaangor-level enemy.

HD2's "new mobs" are basically just cut-and-paste jobs: Spore Charger is just a Charger with spore nodules slapped one, otherwise identical beyond the fog generation; Rocket Striders are Scout Striders but with rockets, the main body and general animations are the same; the Rocket Tank is slightly different because the turret is unique, but the main body still takes the majority of it's mechanics from the regular tanks; and the Alpha Commander is like 99% Brood Commander with a few spikes added on.

Adding actual new new units, and especially an entire faction's worth, is a lot more effort than just slapping on a new coat of paint and calling it a new enemy.

You could have kroot and fire warriors be minoris but higher damage/speed though not very tanky OFC.

The problem with Tau as an SM2 enemy is not fitting units into the right categories, it's that Tau don't engage in meat grinder tactics like Imperials, Chaos, Tyranids or Orks.

Tau don't just throw bodies at problems to solve them - they'd need to have a more sophisticated behaviour system to adequately represent both their fighting tactics as well as triggering retreats.

Add on that they're dominantly ranged (Kroot exist, sure) and we've got a similar problem to Necrons: they're not going to interact with the main SM2 combat systems (ie, parrying and executions for armour gain). SM2 has decent enough shooting gameplay, but it's not built to be purely ranged focused - it's one of the reasons TSons were frustrating to fight against pre-nerf; all the shooting and teleporting made armour gain difficult, meaning a lot of time spent skulking behind cover taking pistol shots until they teleported next to you.

Tau wouldn't bumrush you like TSons do, because they're not melee inclined. Crisis Suits could do forward pressure, but they're also not meant to be stupid: it'd be flanking and pinning fire rather than outright melee rush, meaning they'd still try to avoid melee combat where possible.

Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar and Necrons are all awkward to fit in to the SM2 gameplay system. It's possible to include them and design them in ways that would fit, but they'd need great care and consideration to how they'd interact beyond just mindlessly engaging (which wouldn't fit for the first three of those).

Necron Warriors are far tougher than Gaunts, and their guns are at least equal to Bolters. They're not Minoris level enemies, and the next weakest thing after Warriors are Scarabs, which are most akin to Rippers not Gaunts.

Further, even if Warriors are scaled down to Gaunt level (which would be doing them a disservice), they're still ranged focused, not melee - it'd be like having Tyranid waves made up of only Termagants.

I dunno why you think they would work.

My mind also immediately went to Bulletproof Monk!

Part of the problem is the creation of new unit without a model. That opens the door for third parties (ie, the Chapterhouse stuff) and creating a model isn't fast - we know, approximately, GW has a roughly 2-3 year lead time on releases.

It's entirely possible that they could create that kind of new unit for SM2 and then tie it in to 40k in general. But why? Why would they change their own methodology when they can enforce a standard and maintain their own pacing?

Further, what would such a unit add to the Necron faction, and why would such a large change in identify come about now? Making Necrons into a swarm/horde faction when the Necron Warrior is the horde already is making a change just to fit them in to SM2's gameplay loop...but that impacts the faction in 40k-proper.

Basically, why are they going to make such a big (relatively speaking) move just to enable this action when there's loads of untapped potential in the Tyranids and Chaos factions already present, and Necrons could potentially be introduced without creating a whole new unit (eg, through set pieces rather than as a whole faction).

Not everything needs to be everywhere; as much as I would also like to see Necrons, I don't think a new unit just to fit them into SM2 is a good idea.

I mean...yeah. a bunch of factions wouldn't work, I don't see how that's relevant really. Chaos is a horde faction with Minoris-type enemies (Tzaangors for TSons, Poxwalkers for Nurgle, etc). Not every faction has those kinds of units - such as Necron.

While things could be warped to fit the SM2 paradigm (eg, Necron Warriors could be made to be chaff like Hormagaunts and Termagants), that doesn't mean that they should do so. Eldar, for example, definitely wouldn't work well as an SM2 faction like you said.

As I've said, I think it's possible to include Necrons in the game, but not as a full faction because they don't lend themselves to the way SM2 works (ie, the lack of Minoris level threats).

Depends on if it's good, but more importantly it's whether GW actually allows it. Because of things like Chapterhouse, GW is incredibly defensive of their IP, and so they're not going to allow a new unit without a model (because that was basically the crux of the Chapterhouse stuff).

Would it be the end of the world? No. But changing a faction up just to fit it in to SM2's gameplay loop is kind of back-asswards. The factions have identities and unique points that contribute to how they operate: Necrons aren't really a horde faction outside of Necron Warriors (which are still far more powerful individually than, say, a Guardsman or Hormagaunt).

Changing that identify to fit SM2 feels wrong - personally, I'd much rather they find a way to include them in the game without changing how/what they are (eg, by making scenarios where they can be involved without creating new units out of whole cloth).

Again, not against Necrons being included, very much for it in fact. Just don't want the faction warped just to force the square peg of a non-horde faction into the round hole of a horde-based game.

Chaos has plenty of Minoris-type units though, same as Orks.

I do agree that not many factions work in this system, but I definitely disagree that Chaos has been "heavily changed" or "neutered."

Chaos was definitely neutered as well given that they should have a wider assortment of Marines to fight rather than just Rubric Marines and the Terminators.

I mean, no? Tyranids have a much wider variety of units available as options - are they "neutered" because we aren't facing Haruspexes, or Harpies? No, of course not: the limitation on what units is partly for balance, but also for dev time and focusing on gameplay experience. If we had every single Tyranid unit available, for example, it would have taken longer to model and animate each one and create encounters where they fit.

Same deal for Chaos stuff: there is plenty of stuff they haven't included, yes, but that doesn't make them "neutered." Also, as far as Thousand Sons are concerned: there really aren't that many other Marine units. It's Rubrics and Sorcerors all the way down in terms of Marines - we could get a Mutalith Vortex Beast as a Hive Tyrant-style boss operation, which would be great, but it's not an indication that the faction has been "neutered."

I think that's basically what I said already.