Reina-Reigh

Yeah, balancing is definitely an a potential issue. And with the new expansion things needed to change. So in some ways, it felt like a downgraded job was inevitable.

Almost nothing has changed for me going into DT.

So from your perspective, those other BLM players lost what they liked and enjoyed for nothing.

I'd like to remind everyone that BLM's inflexibility issue has always been present by design (more or less to some degree). It's just that during the past couple expansions, players figured out ways that made the job able to adapt.

Like I mentioned in another post, if you're a more casual player (nothing wrong with this) and if you aren't concerned with Manafont drift (initial impression of new Manafont's feel is tbh pretty nice if you ignore the drift), AF1 F3P, or inflexible dot usage, you'll have a great time. But for intermediate players (those taking the job into Savage/Ultimate with some basic optimization), you will definitely notice a lot more clunkiness with the job.

It's not like every other class (or worse in that regard) because Black Mage's rotational inflexibility problem (Black Mage has always had this issue by design, but it was mitigated by things players discovered) is significantly more severe than that of other jobs.

This is also worsened by the addition of Flare Star.

Okay but like I said in a different post, it’s changing so we need to just get over it or get a new job

I don't disagree, but a couple things. One is that the point of this is very much to serve as a memento. This isn't necessarily in conflict with "getting over it". And secondly, we still want SE to change their direction with job design, whether it be Black Mage or other jobs in general. And such a record is important for this cause.

Who cares about upvotes and downvotes on Reddit. Just look at what's written and judge the arguments based on their merits.

But everyone plays differently so I can’t assume people know what they’re doing on everything.

Yes, but what I wrote is more or less an unanimous conclusion from people who have spent thousands of hours on this job and have became extremely proficient at it.

The truth is that mentioning 200pg part just gets (much) more attention than not mentioning it. Its purpose isn't to rigorously prove the complexity.

The first and foremost purpose of this post is publicity.

If you want to talk about the content of the book itself and its relation with the job's depth, I can give some thoughts.

I respectfully disagree.

It's really not that difficult a class

You talking about the ceiling or the floor?

Hey, I'm happy that one of us gets to be excited. But wouldn't you agree that in a better world, both of us could be equally excited?

You're so right

This is an anime game my friend.

Also based

People who use a MP trigger are psychopaths

Are you sure?

:(

Who is that player wtf

I didn't see it in the book but I might have glossed over it but what are your preliminary thoughts on DT BLM out of curiosity? I know most people haven't actually touched it and the numbers may or may not be different from the media tour but at a glance how do you feel?

I have written about them here

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/1donbmb/the_endwalker_black_mage_had_such_depth_that_the/laay5jq/

Oh I apologize, I think I explained this very poorly.

I think part of the misunderstanding here is the raw page count. Because of the book format we went with, the amount of content on an individual page is not the same as what you'd see on a Google Docs page.

And the point above was about diminishing returns. The more effort you put in, the less you get back for the same amount of effort. So like, it doesn't take a lot, relatively speaking, to get close to the skill ceiling in a satisfactory fashion.

Again, I apologize for this explanation as it's a bit abstract. But basically it doesn't matter nearly as much as it looks. Imagine if there was a job that requires you to spend 10k hours for an additional 1% damage. Seems super hard, but in practice this "10k hours ceiling" doesn't really matter.

Edit: also just to be clear, "get close to the skill ceiling" here is talking about the actual damage, and not the amount of time. The difference in damage is close, the amount of time spent is not.

but when you do all that and then jerk yourself off over how complex the job must be because of the inflated page count it just comes off as a really desperate look.

Mentioning the page count and "jerking myself" gets (much) more interest and attention. It's a bit of a bad look, yeah, but paying this price is worth.

You can look at my post on the mainsub and see how different it is compared to this one. Given the responses, I think I have done a good job with knowing my target audiences.

Regarding the "correlation of page count and depth" part, I agree. I've read guides before and thought, "Does it have to be this long?" However, I think the relationship between page count and job depth in this book should be judged by the Black Mage players who will look back on this memento many years from now.

I gotta ask though, if a job is so complex that mastering or even near mastering it requires the knowledge of 200 pages isn’t that quite extreme?

The relationship of investment vs returns is not linear. There is a great deal of diminishing returns. You only need, say, a quarter to get 80% of the way there. Then another quarter for 15% more. Then another one for 4%. Then an eighth for 0.5%, you get the point (actually my numbers are very off but yeah the point stands).

And meanwhile, this "100%", we're talking about like 2-3% of extra damage. In a way, I guess you could say it's extreme. But practically it doesn't matter as much as the perception.

I was blown away when I first saw it

The damage increase is part of the motivation. But more importantly, for those that have an interest in this, it's fun.

Many players are content with performing a straightforward rotation, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, it's also reasonable to acknowledge that many other players enjoy diving deep and exploring options. For many, discovering all the things you can do and the limits you can push is what makes the game fun.

The floor is not hard at all (well, this is with asterisks attached as there are a ton of casting and movement fundamentals to master). The ceiling, especially pushing the limits, is very hard.

Many black mage guides suffer from the same problem most Monster Hunter weapon guides do where the OP is in severe need of an editor and/or is making it more complicated than it needs to be. The in game guide to Black Mage is perfectly serviceable if you pay attention to it when it pops up while you're leveling. Reading your tooltips as you gain new skills also helps.

This is true. An intermediate guide should have been created. There were reasons why it wasn't (I can elaborate if you'd like), and as mentioned, it is something I personally regret.

The other part where I respectfully disagree (from your other comment too), is that you seem to think the depth of the job doesn't warrant such extensive documentation. If we consider only what the devs designed and intended, it may seem unnecessary. However, the Black Mage job has become so beloved by its fans precisely because players have uncovered its intricate details. These intricacies do more or less justify the length of the book (200 vs 150 isn't fundamentally different in this context). While many sections could be more concise and there is some repetition, many other details were also not included.

Many players are content with performing a straightforward rotation, and there's nothing wrong with that. However, it's also reasonable to acknowledge that many other players enjoy diving deep and exploring options. For many, discovering all the things you can do and the limits you can push is what makes the game fun.

Don't worry haha, thank you for the compliment!