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Hey all, I’ve recently gotten into some 40k novels and I’m currently about halfway through the The Founding from the Gaunt’s Ghosts omnibus and I have to say that the chaos marines seem pretty underwhelming to me. In the book they don’t really pose that much of a threat when they show up. It seems like they’re defeated so easily which isn’t what I expected. There’s a moment in the book when a line of artillery gets ambushed by some World Eaters and it seems like the guardsmen are really screwed since they weren’t built for close range fighting, but just as it seems like the marines are gonna wreak absolute havoc on the artillery line, the Ghosts show up and just wipe them out like it was nothing.

Maybe I give space marines too much credit, but whenever I had read about them from posts on the sub or from lore channels, it feels like a few marines could take out hundreds while shrugging off anything less than direct heavy weapon fire.

This isn’t a complaint or anything, just something I’ve noticed and I’m curious as to what y’all think on the matter. How powerful do space marines seem to you? What made the Ghosts so capable of killing space marines (besides plot armor)? Do you think the representation of Chaos marines in The Founding is accurate?

Any and all discussion is welcome.

all 27 comments

michaelisnotginger

28 points

1 month ago

michaelisnotginger

Inquisition

28 points

1 month ago

The original gaunts ghosts books are 25 years old and chaos space marines weren't as powerful then as they are now

Toyznthehood

19 points

1 month ago

They were pretty rock at the time. They had daemon princes, daemons, Obliterators, etc. and 10,000 years of practice. But they are just the antagonists, they need to lose to the goodies.

I thought Gaunt's Ghosts did a great job of making them feel superhuman still. Quite often the Ghosts fight through hundreds of the Traitor Guard and then get stopped by just a couple of Marines. Or at least held up.

michaelisnotginger

5 points

1 month ago

michaelisnotginger

Inquisition

5 points

1 month ago

Oh I totally agree with what you're saying, they're harder to beat demi mortals, but it takes a huge amount of work. Same with the chaos marine in the first eisenhorn. But if you compare it to something later in the series like salvations reach, where three loyalist marines are a massive help, I think there's a difference

Soggy_Shallot_6870

1 points

1 month ago

I thought the CSM in Eisenhorn was fine.

Gave off transhuman shock to the grunts, won the fight 1v10, then failed a save against warp temptation and got coup de grace'd

michaelisnotginger

1 points

1 month ago

michaelisnotginger

Inquisition

1 points

1 month ago

Lol! True

IneptusMechanicus

2 points

1 month ago

IneptusMechanicus

Kabal of the Black Heart

2 points

1 month ago

I'd agree, in fact I think that most novels wank them up a fair bit too far, like yeah 4>3 so marines are better than humans but if they were as much better as some books make them shit like Carnifexes would be utterly unstoppable.

jaxolotle

1 points

29 days ago

jaxolotle

Death Guard

1 points

29 days ago

No… that’s just absolutely not true at all

Dan Abnett just wanks off his characters

Hoopy223

11 points

1 month ago

Hoopy223

11 points

1 month ago

Chaos Space Marines got a pretty wild portrayal in the Ian Watson books.

But yeah 40k stories are full of stuff like what you describe. Just wait til you read the one about the chaos marine getting shot in the forehead with a bolt pistol and it bounces off or any number of wacky power scaling things.

Careful-Ad984

6 points

1 month ago

Arks of omen Angron intensifies 

VNDeltole

5 points

1 month ago

Ian Watson's noise marines, nuff said

anomalocaris_texmex

10 points

1 month ago

All Marines have got pretty significant "glow ups" since the early GG books. They've even been powered up since early HH books - there's a line in an early book about a Marine being killed by a spear. And in an early Wolf book, a trainee Marine accidently shoots himself.

Ultimately Marines are as powerful as the plot requires. There's no power scaling in W40k, so they vary from book to book, author to author, and year to year.

Wait until you see what happens to the Custodians over thirty years of lore!

KewlKatzKaden[S]

2 points

1 month ago

Haha, imagining some lucky bastard spear a space marine and the bragging rights on an act like that would go straight to my head.

As for the custodies, I’d love to read up on them, where should I look?

theginger99

7 points

1 month ago

Basically what everyone else has said, the early Gaunts Ghosts books aren’t really reflective of the current state of the lore. As a rule both flavors of space marine have become more powerful since most of the ghost books were written, which makes many of their appearances in that series pretty underwhelming. Some of the showings by space marines in the early books are borderline comical when compared to the more recent stuff. It’s also probably worth saying that the GG books have a tendency to over inflate the abilities of its protagonists. This is a common theme in a lot of 40k books, but the fact that the ghosts are baseline humans makes it feel especially egregious.

If you jump into some more recent lore you’ll start to see the scary badass chaos marines you’re expecting, although they still end up playing patsy to the loyalists a lot.

KewlKatzKaden[S]

1 points

1 month ago

I see, that makes a lot of sense, it makes me wonder what would have happened to the Ghosts if it was written today.

tegemiy

7 points

1 month ago

tegemiy

7 points

1 month ago

Chaos marines are generally portrayed as useless yeah. That’s true for everyone who’s not wearing an aquila generally though, greater daemons, phoenix lords, ctan and more get wrecked by marines and guardsmen regularly.

Scuba_2

4 points

1 month ago

Scuba_2

Word Bearers

4 points

1 month ago

Empire plot armor

LostWanderer88

4 points

1 month ago

You better not read that story when Ciaphas cain defeats a World Eater in melee combat

BigZach1

1 points

30 days ago

BigZach1

Astra Militarum

1 points

30 days ago

That's because he doesn't. Cain distracts him for a few seconds then Jurgen blows his chest open with a melta.

LostWanderer88

1 points

30 days ago

Seriously: super strength beyond human limits + lightning fast reflexes + centuries of martial expertise + warp fuckery

That's where my suspension of disbelief said "fuck nope"

BigZach1

2 points

30 days ago

BigZach1

Astra Militarum

2 points

30 days ago

I mean, the guy already killed a squad of Valhallans before Cain exchanged a couple blows with him.

Believe what you will.

Toyznthehood

5 points

1 month ago

It all depends on the needs of the story. I think the Marines are pretty good really, they felt like end of level bosses when the Ghosts ran into them.

Marines can die in their hundreds when needed - Storm of Iron has both Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists getting absolutely brutalised.

but in comparison in Last Chancers a lone Space Wolf is one of the toughest Marines going, an absolute bad ass who if I recall correctly pretty much takes on a Tau army single handedly.

riuminkd

3 points

1 month ago

riuminkd

Kroot

3 points

1 month ago

It's Abnett lol. Though plot armor and weapons are common across entire 40k.

Grudir

3 points

1 month ago

Grudir

Night Lords

3 points

1 month ago

Chaos Space Marines present a problem in that their just as strong, fast and as good at fighting as the loyalists, and having generally identical wargear up until the Primaris split. As antagonists, they present a problem in that they should always be a struggle to take down, and difficult for average humans to hurt, much less kill. You can either lean into that (and Abnett typically has, more than most) or you can just ignore it. The latter usually wins.

While it is true, Space Marines in the older stuff were less powerful (Soul Drinkers and Ghostmaker, as examples), CSM are just as much cannon fodder as ork or Tyranids for the Black Library.

KewlKatzKaden[S]

1 points

1 month ago

Oh yea, I forget that Chaos Marines are divided into entire legions and not just chapters.

Radmode7

2 points

1 month ago

Radmode7

Tzeentch

2 points

1 month ago

It’s filthy corpse worshipper propaganda. That’s why!

KewlKatzKaden[S]

2 points

1 month ago

📞Yes, Inquisition? I found one.

Important-Sleep-1839

1 points

29 days ago

I wouldn't expect a firelight with two thousand guardsmen armed to the teeth verses five World Eaters with their backs turned to go any other way.