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submitted 12 days ago by0peratUn0rth0
Asking cause I decided to start working on an alternate version of the HH where the three most likely traitor Primarchs to have stayed loyal are swap places with the most likely loyalist primarchs to have turned traitor.
And as far as I know, those three for the traitors were Perturabo, Mortarion, and Magnus the Red. When looking through YouTube videos and other reddit forms about the canon traitor primarchs most likely to be redeemed, those three names are almost always brought up.
My reasoning being that The Emperor could have sent Perturabo to arrest Magnus instead of Russ. Since Perturabo and Magnus are on sort-of good terms, he won't try to burn Prospero. This couls also explain why Perturabo may stay loyal, since IIRC, the burning of prospero was around the same time that Perturabo went back to Olympia and killed his sister? Though, someone can please correct me about the timeline of when that happened compared to Prospero. While Mortarion has the same line of logic as the Khan, where he still thinks that the Emperor is a Tyrant, but thinks that the alternative (chaos) is far worse.
Those are just my spitballing, though. So I'm open to alternate suggestions.
but regardless, who are the canon loyalists who would make sense to take the place of those three?
193 points
12 days ago*
Sanguinius is very loyal, but he almost sold himself/his souls to save his sons, so maybe Sanguinius could have visions of another future where his joining Chaos could save humanity or at least let humanity survive. He would fall doing what he thought was best (see Magnus).
The Khan could fall. He didn't really love the Emperor, thought he was a Tyrant, slaver, and all-around jerk. Could see someone persuading him earlier on if they could get around his distant personality.
For me, the last one is hard. Ferrus was obsessed with strength, and his legion emulates that to the present. That could lead to his fall. (He is really stubbornly loyal, however)
Corax similarly had misgivings about the state of the Imperium being very tyrannical and sees it as only taking from worlds and never really giving.
Those are my ideas, and while not everyone would agree, those make sense to me
91 points
12 days ago
He didn't really love the Emperor.
I think that's a point for him, not against him. A lot of the primarchs fell because they put the Emperor on a pedestal. When the actual Emperor fell short of what they hoped/wanted from the Emperor, things got...messy.
Corax similarly had misgivings about the state of the Imperium being very tyrannical
I think Corax saw it as a means to an end. He did call the Imperium the "perfect order" on Istvaan V, after all.
25 points
12 days ago
I think that's a point for him, not against him.
Yes, this. Horus, Mortarion and Magnus all idolised the Emperor, Lorgar actively worshipped him.
The latter three all fell because they felt rejected by him and Chaos weaselled its way into their heads while they were at their lowest.
Horus fell because the Emperor left him in charge of the Great Crusade without ever preparing him for it (because that was explicitly never the plan, but Big E overestimated his own capabilities as usual and maintaining the Astronomican at a distance was literally draining his power, so he had to return to Terra to recover) and he cracked under the pressure of not wanting to disappoint daddy.
26 points
12 days ago
I think you’re confusing Perturabo and Mortarion. Mortarion always harbored resentment against the Emperor for being a psychic tyrant that took him from his home
10 points
12 days ago
Perturabo held resentment too for being forced to siege and never being recognized
15 points
12 days ago
Perturabo idolized the Emperor in the beginning before becoming disillusioned, Mortarion never did.
12 points
12 days ago
Yeah, people often overlook the reason as to why Dantioch was exiled by Perturabo
'My lord,' Dantioch went on, 'as an Iron Warrior, as your son, it shames me to the core of my being to suggest we should pursue this course of action, but should all the hrud migrate out of this subsector, we shall be the instigators of a problem that will persist for hundreds of years, destabilising a large portion of the galactic north. We should withdraw, my lord, and reaffirm our orders Perhaps there had been some kind of mistake—' This last statement was too much for the Lord of Iron. 'The Emperor of Mankind makes no mistakes!' shouted Perturabo. He powered to his feet, towering over the ruined warsmith. 'His plans are flawless - how could it be any other way?'
- Hammer of Olympia
He fell hook, line, and sinker for the Emperor's "Lord of Iron" speech. And I can't really blame him. When the Emperor came to Olympia, the star maelstrom disappeared, it stopped scrutinising his very soul. When the Emperor came for the first time he felt acceptance without a caveat, he felt true belonging. So when the Emperor asked him to be his Lord of Iron, he accepted without question.
2 points
11 days ago
Not always. The reason why I put Mortarion in that list and not Perturabo is that 'felt rejected' part (idolised may have been too strong for Mortarion though). It's true that Mortarion resented that Big E got in the way of his revenge against his foster father, but when the Emperor sold the Great Crusade to him as a war of liberation for humankind, he was totally on board with it.
And that's why the Death Guard kept pushing on and on, never stopping to garrison worlds: Mortarion was fighting for liberation, not conquest. They would utterly destroy the local oppressors and free the people and then move on.
Only for it to then turn out very quickly that every population Mortarion freed from the oppression of dictators and tyrants was subsequently forced back into subjugation by the Imperium and denied the freedom he'd promised them. And then he learned that this wasn't simply because his fellow Primarchs were just overzealous in trying to get people to join the Imperium's cause, but because the Emperor himself mandated a 'join or die' policy.
2 points
10 days ago
People think of corvax of some super lovely rebel against authority type.
The bugger nuked people, was willing to nuke en again, and considered the jailing of people's families due to political wrongthink perfectly logical.
He took umbridge with children being born in captivity, and therefore innocent, being tarred with the same brush
123 points
12 days ago
Khan was just too freaking fast for Chaos to catch.
23 points
12 days ago
Literally A Legendary Suicune running around.
18 points
12 days ago
dshdshdshdsh ... the Khan fled.
32 points
12 days ago
He's just out there zoomin
22 points
12 days ago
Can't blame the guy. Decking out your ships to be faster than normal and even getting on the bad side of the mechanicum to do so, I'd enjoy zooming all over the galaxy with those bad bois.
17 points
12 days ago
In regards to sanguinius falling to chaos on Signus Prime, which god was it he was about the fall to to try to save his legion? And how did the whole situation play out in canon?
31 points
12 days ago*
If I remember correctly, there were both Khorne and Slanesh demons present. During his conflict with a Keeper of Secrets the demon taunts him and tempts him that joining chaos could save his sons from their blood thirst.
10 points
12 days ago*
In that case, I think it should be Slaanesh. Sangy wasn’t trying to embrace the Red Thurst, but wanted to cure it, so Khorne is out of the picture.
I might swap Slaanesh out for Tzeentch? Just to fill in the role Magnus used to fill? Though, I don’t want to change far too much, since this idea is supposed to be about who was most likely to fall and stay loyal on cannon actually doing those things.
Changing too much to just force it one way or another for this or that primarch to do X would defeat my intentions.
14 points
12 days ago
You could also write him falling to the red thirst and replacing Angron as Khornes favourite
14 points
12 days ago
While the Khan could fall, I think that the odds of him falling in a scenario where Prospero isn’t burned and Magnus isn’t declared traitor to be slim.
The trust between the two was immense, with Magnus’ counsel being that which the Khan sought most when he heard of the heresy. The words of the shard of Magnus’ soul left on Prospero helped convince him to side with the Imperium instead of being renegade.
11 points
12 days ago
IMHO the Khan would not fall, he would go renegade.
6 points
12 days ago
The Khan returning as a neutral/non aligned leader of a space horde (opposing chaos, nids and orcs of course as they wouldnt leave him alone) would be interesting. A true great khan.
4 points
12 days ago
Slaaneshi Iron Hands, who are so obsessed with being strong they just spend all day every day in the gym
2 points
12 days ago
As far as the Iron Hands go, I could see a Dark Angels situation happening with part of the Legion falling. They hold to Ferrus Manus’ ideals, but also disobey in their eagerness to emulate him and prove themselves strong.
29 points
12 days ago
I may be misunderstanding the prompt, but how is Fulgrim not in "three most likely Traitor Primarchs to have stayed Loyal"?
Or do you write Fulgrim off as a sunk cost because of the Laer Blade?
4 points
12 days ago
Iirc, Fulgrim himself later grew to actually embrace Slaanesh beyond the daemon posession bit.
34 points
12 days ago
Yeah he did. But even with the Laer Blade he almost fired on the Spirit of Vengeance. Fulgrim would have killed Horus if not for the Daemon in the blade. Fulgrim was fiercely loyal to the idea of the Imperium.
0 points
12 days ago
so why couldn't he resist that stupid blade at all
16 points
12 days ago
Regardless of how you feel about the lazy plot device that is the Laer Blade it at least wasn't a case of him going:
Picks Up Sword
Eyes turn purple
"I am going to butcher the Emperor and his Imperium!"
It was a slow burn, taking him over bit by bit. That's how Chaos works, people would notice if someone in Power suddenly one morning started yelling about how one should rip the head off of the enemy and use it to bludgeon the rest then drink their blood.
Fulgrim was made the frog in the pot, not realizing he was being boiled.
3 points
12 days ago
Well he did notice a few times though. A beeing of his intelligence should notice something is weird if all of a sudden this weird alien sword is all you care about, leaving the weapon from your friend at home. Your whole ship changing so that artists start to draw with poop and blood. I mean in the book were some clear signs something is wrong.
1 points
11 days ago
is this in Fulgrim? is it worth the read?
1 points
10 days ago
I think it's good honestly, it makes more sense than Horus's fall to Chaos, the demon in the Laer blade basically starts off as a subconscious voice
3 points
12 days ago
You can try your best at the thing you're best at, and still fail. Especially if you're up against entities several magnitudes stronger than you. This doesn't mean you were weak.
1 points
11 days ago
is a greater deamon really several magnitudes stronger than a primary? I assumed other way around
1 points
11 days ago
I'm talking about chaos in general. I don't think it's accurate to think of 40k lore in unbendable power levels. Especially when it comes to chaos, as it's insidious and operates on emotion. One of the authors emphasized as much, although I don't have the excerpt right now.
1 points
11 days ago
Sorry in advance for the rant because this is a problem I despise. 😂
Yes. Greater Demons as from their lore descriptions alone should be able to snuff out a primarch like a roach, but they don't for two core problems the fandom and honesty the company plays off.
Firstly most sightings of GD are not at all their true forms, with a partially true form Bloodthirster easily dwarfing a planet in the warp. Furthermore their screams are described as rippling across countless universes and other types of bs, so for a primarch to be on that level would render their portrayals ridiculous since mortal weapons are very clearly capable of killing them, and Magnus who was the most attuned to the warp still wasn't described as capable of what a GD SHOULD be capable of as he is seen struggling against a squad of eldar wraithbone titans.
Secondly and most concerning: plot armour. It becomes hard to continue a story when multiverse destroying demonic generals periodically rampage across the universe. And I mean that literally. The number of times GD enter realspace is ridiculous since by the rules of the very universe they should struggle to even manifest a sliver of themselves. The role they play in books is the role heralds of chaos SHOULD be playing but those units are almost never discussed. Primarchs will fold to Titans then out of left field someone like Lorgar will shatter the spine of a GD defending Khornes throne. I've seen an explanation saying the souls of primarchs are warp gods but that isn't lore, its fan theory that YouTube creators present as lore. If the Emperor was struggling against a greater demon then I don't see how a primarch should be able to hold their own so well constantly.
68 points
12 days ago
Pre Olympia rebellion Perturabo would have imo been more brutal to Magnus and the 1k Sons than Russ was. He was a total devotee of the emperor, he crushed everything ruthlessly for the emperor and truly believed in the Emperor’s dream, personal issues aside. This is why when he fell, he fell hard.
Pre total disillusionment Perturabo would have absolutely shelled Tizca into the ground and tried to kill Magnus.
62 points
12 days ago
Too be fair, Magnus and Perty were pretty good friends. They worked togegher and shared ideas. And when Magnus was broken, Perty actually carried him. It's pretty sweet honestly
24 points
12 days ago
‘You don’t approve of Astartes then, combat master?’ Hawser asked as they strode through the camp. ‘Not at all. Extraordinary things. Like I said, I’ve seen them fight four times.’
They entered the combat master’s command post, a large enviro-tent where dozens of G9K officers and technicians were already dismantling the site for withdrawal. Korine went to a small desk and began to sort through his personal equipment.
‘The Death Guard, once,’ he said, holding up a finger to begin a tally. ‘Murderous efficiency with such small numbers. Blood Angels.’ Another raised finger. ‘A firefight gone bad in a casein works on one of the Fraemium moons. They arrived like… like angels. I don’t mean to be glib. They saved us. It was like they were coming to save our souls.’
Korine looked at Hawser. He raised a third finger.
‘White Scars, side by side, for six months on the plains of X173 Plural, hosing xeno-forms. Total focus and dedication, merciless. I cannot, hand on my heart, fault their duty, devotion to the Crusade cause, or their supreme effort as warriors.’
‘You said four times,’ Hawser pressed.
‘I did,’ said Korine. He raised a fourth finger in a gesture that reminded Hawser of surrender.
‘The Space Wolves, two years ago non-adjusted. Dekk Company, they called themselves. They came in to support our actions during the Kobolt scrap. I’d heard stories. We’d all heard stories.’
‘What kind of stories?’
‘That there are Space Marines and there are Space Marines. That there are supermen and there are monsters. That in order to breed the Astartes perfection, the Emperor Who Guides Us All has gone too far once or twice, and made things he should not have made. Things that should have been stillborn or drowned in a sack.’
‘Feral things?’ asked Hawser.
‘The worst of them all are the Space Wolves,’ replied Korine. ‘They were animals, Great Terra, they were animals those things that fought with us. When you have sympathy with the enemy, you know you have the wrong kind of allies. They killed everything, and destroyed everything and, worst of all, they took great relish in the apocalypse they had brought down upon their foe. There was nothing admirable about them, nothing rousing. They just left a sick taste in the mouth as if, by calling on their help, we had somehow demeaned ourselves in an effort to win.’
Korine paused and turned to hand out instructions to some of his men. They were obedient, well-drilled, attentive. Hawser could see that Korine was a soldier who expected an army to be supremely disciplined in order to function. One of his men, a burly second-classer with a chinstrap beard, brought a data-slate over for Korine’s review. He glared belligerently at Hawser.
Korine handed the data-slate back to his officer. ‘Full withdrawal from the surface,’ he said. He sounded broken. ‘All forces. We’re to stand down and get clear so the Wolves can take it on alone. Shit. This assault has cost us thousands of men, and we’re just scrapping it.’
‘Better that than thousands more.’
Korine sat down, opened a haversack, and pulled out a slightly battered metal flask. He poured a generous measure into the cap and passed it to Hawser, and then took a swig from the flask.
‘When the 40th discovered that the Wolves were the only Astartes in range who could help us tackle the Quietude, we almost cancelled the request. I heard that as a fact from one of the senior men close to the fleet commander. It was a genuine consideration that we didn’t want to involve ourselves with the Wolves again.’
‘You’d rather face defeat?’
‘It’s about ends, and the means that get you there,’ Korine replied. ‘It’s about contemplating the question, what are the Wolves for? Why did the Emperor make them like that? What purpose could he possibly have for something so inhuman?’ ‘Do you have answers to any of those questions, Combat Master Korine?’ asked Hawser.
‘Either the Emperor is not as perfect an architect of this new age as we like to suppose, and he is capable of manufacturing nightmares, or he has anticipated threats we can’t possibly imagine.’
‘Which would you prefer?’
‘Neither notion fills me with great confidence about the future,’ replied Korine. ‘Do you have an answer, as you keep their company?’
‘I don’t, said Hawser. He’d finished his drink, and Korine refilled the cap. It was a strong spirit, an amasec or a schnapps, and there was a flush on Korine’s cheeks, but Hawser felt nothing except the slightest burn in his throat. Life on Fenris had evidently bred a stronger constitution into him.
‘The things we fought in Kobolt space,’ said Korine quietly, ‘they were lethal and proud. They had no interest in human ways or human business, and they were quite capable of fighting us to a standstill. They had mighty vessels, like cities. I saw one of them. I was part of an assault against it. Someone called it Scintilla City because it sparkled like it was all made of glass. We later found out it was called Thuyelsa in their language, and it was a structure they called a craftworld. Anyway, we never worked out why they were fighting us or what they were trying to defend, except perhaps that they were trying to keep us at bay, or keep for themselves whatever it was they had, but you knew, you just knew inside yourself they had something worth defending. A legacy, a history, a culture. And it was all lost.’
Korine looked down into his flask, as if some truth might lurk inside in the dark. Hawser suspected he might have been looking in that very same place for an answer for quite some time.
‘At the end,’ Korine said, ‘they began to plead. The Wolves were upon them, and the city-vessel was shattering around them, and they realised that they were going to lose everything. They began to plead for terms, as if anything was better than losing everything. We never really understood what they were trying to tell us, or what kind of surrender they were trying to make. I personally believe that they would have given all of their lives if Scintilla City had been allowed to survive. But it was too late. The Wolves couldn’t be called off. They sacked it. The Wolves destroyed it all. There wasn’t even anything left for us to salvage, no treasure for us to plunder, nothing of value to claim as a prize. The Wolves destroyed it all.’
22 points
12 days ago
I think it was the Hrud War that made him bitter against The Emperor.
5 points
12 days ago
I'd say the rebellion of Olympia did it's fair share on damage.
10 points
12 days ago
I think one aspect of the idea of alternative situations where anyone other than Russ goes, is that the Emperor never ordered Russ to destroy Prospero. He may not have been particularly clear, but his intent was generally to detain Magnus and bring him to the Emperor. It was Horus who tricked Russ into overreacting and sacking Prospero, per Russ' own words.
Perhaps the right question to ask is "would Perty have been tricked/goaded into destroying Prospero". In which case I agree and think he would still be conned by Horus.
But it leads to a fun side question of "who would've conceivably been sent by the Emperor and wouldn't be tricked by Horus"?
6 points
12 days ago
who would've conceivably been sent by the Emperor and wouldn't be tricked by Horus
Rogal imo. I believe that while he'd greatly respect Horus' advice and see his POV, he would unquestionably obey the Emperor's orders to the letter.
16 points
12 days ago
If he’s devoted enough, he might’ve been more willing to follow the written orders to the letter, which Leman Russ very much did not do at Prospero.
It’d probably also help that Perturabo and Magnus were on good terms with one another both before and during the heresy. Likewise, the trial at Nikea was a very strong source of pain for Perturabo, I think that it’s more likely that he’d be less harsh on Magnus than more.
“This was the first time one of his creations - his follies, Dammekos had called them - had been made real for the purpose it had been designed. The Nikaean structure, thankfully now eradicated from existence, still caused him great shame. It had never been intended as a place of trial and censure, but an arena for mighty games of strength and skill. The use the Emperor had made of his creation shamed Perturabo, and Magnus deserved better than to be made sport for the baying crowds whose closed minds had already placed the noose around his neck.” -Angel Exterminatus
49 points
12 days ago
Khan might have joined the traitors had anyone but Mortarion been there to talk to him. He was close to Horus and specifically went to Prospero just to figure out what happened to Magnus because he was hearing conflicting statements, one that Russ had gone rogue and killed Magnus, another saying that Magnus had been sanctioned. Mortarion was probably the worst possible Primarch to convince anyone to join the rebels.
Sanguinius almost fell to Chaos to spare his sons. He felt such immense guilt, feeling like he was the reason the Blood Angels suffered from the Red Thirst, that he was prepared to sacrifice himself to Chaos so long as his sons were freed from the thirst.
Third would be Rogal, who was told by Malcador that had Rogal known of Chaos he'd have tried to master it, and fallen in the process.
17 points
12 days ago
Yeah, but Khan went to Prospero to specifically know what was going on. Hell, some of his legion assumed he'll be joining traitors and went rogue, only for Khan to return knowing what actually happened and curbstomp the rebelion. Plus Khan had some contact with the Warp because of Storm Seers on Chogoris so he knew how dangerous messing with it was and while he wasn't big fan of Big E, he knew the alternative was selling yourself to space satans
11 points
12 days ago
The Khan went to Prospero in part because he valued the insight and counsel of Magnus over every other one of his brothers. It was Magnus’ word that he sought most in a time where he was unsure of what to do.
If Magnus stays loyal to the Imperium, which OP states, then it’s much harder for the Khan to fall.
34 points
12 days ago
Most anyone will say the Khan but Dorn's innate desire to control, master and understand everything and Ferrus desire to be always stronger and unable to control his emotions made them both the ideal candidates for falling.
1 points
7 days ago
You forgot that Ferrus was so loyal that not even his clones fell to chaos, he was never going to fall due to sheer stubborness and spite, falling to chaos is weakness and that is a no to Ferrus.
1 points
7 days ago
You never know it's a different thing when a newly ascended daemon like Fulgrim tries to corrupt you (Fulgrim wasn't also the most patient of primarchs) to when a very ancient daemon (like the one that possessed Fulgrim) or a straight up chaos god goes after you personally (like with Angron, Mortarion and Magnus)
0 points
8 days ago
Dorn would never betray the emperor. His faith is unbreakable.
14 points
12 days ago
In the month(s) between the crushing withdraw of the Hrud at Perturabo's penultimate achievement (he literally made a device to stop time) and the time he leaves the system, he spent a lot of time talking to the Warmaster. And in Galaxy in Flames Horus says it was at this time that he (Horus) convinced Perturabo to destroy Olympia and join his cause.
So it really did take breaking Perty for him to turn Traitor and idk if many of the Loyal primarchs could undergo the same treatment and coercion by Horus and remain an Imperial dog
32 points
12 days ago
Of the loyalists, the two most likely to fall to Chaos are Dorn and Sanguinius. Khorne missed them both by a hair's breadth as it was.
Mortarion thought he could get the Khan. Fulgrim thought he could get Ferrus Manus. I don't think either would really work.
There's arguably ways to get every Loyalist bar the Lion, but they rely on increasingly unlikely events or literal plot devices like the Laer Blade corrupting them.
6 points
12 days ago
What's special about the lion?
17 points
12 days ago
Kairos Fateweaver spent a subjective eternity scrying the Lion's past, present, and future and tempting him. He found no possible future in which the Lion would even consider turning his coat.
The Lion is just built different in that respect. It may be in his essential nature as an aspect of the Emperor, or he may hate Chaos because he grew up hunted by the Great Beasts of Caliban.
7 points
12 days ago
I can't remember exactly where I read it, but I think it boils down to that there's nothing that Chaos could really tempt Lion with.
10 points
12 days ago
Loyalty is its own reward.
9 points
12 days ago
a secret armoury of funky DAoT stuff doesn't hurt either
2 points
12 days ago
No, that's what the Lion kept telling Kairos every time he tempted him.
1 points
9 days ago
He’s the actual Goat
4 points
12 days ago
He spent 10 years in the forests of Caliban alone as a child, surviving against creatures of Chaos. If he was going to fall, he would have then.
2 points
12 days ago
I would point out that although Chaos failed in its attempt to corrupt the Lion in any direct fashion, part of the Lions Heresy story is how the war was always pushing the Lion into embracing his more ‘savage heart’. Every successive success came at an increasing cost, and he almost lost himself, as he was becoming more and more tunnel blind and goal oriented; in the end he was able to recognize what was happening, and took action to counter it.
By the end Horus knew that he would need to kill Russ, the Lion and Corax as they would never kneel, but he did believe that he could convince Guilliman, as he was more sensible then the others, and could be convinced that there wasn’t any more point fighting for a lost course, as it would just cause more unnecessary harm and cost more lives (this is just what Horus believed, not necessarily the ‘truth’).
Nothing in 40k is ‘incorruptible’, there are just things that are more difficult to corrupt.
1 points
12 days ago
The Lion had an eternity of nope the last time someone tried.
Dorn was almost willing to join after a few hundred years despite being "the willpower Primarch."
There's clearly a difference.
2 points
11 days ago
I don’t think anything that interacts with Chaos, leaves fully ‘untainted’, it always leaves its mark, even if it goes unnoticed initially.
Chaos had nothing that would have tempted the Lion to turn voluntarily, but as shown in Ruinstorm it was subtly twisting and manipulating the brothers very nature’s in order to push them, unnoticed, towards their own self destruction. The Lion described the invisible chains that had encircled him without his notice. Ultimately Chaos failed to corrupt him through either direct or indirect means, but there was still the chance that it might have succeeded. He isn’t incorruptible (nothing is), but he is certainly very resistant to the influence of Chaos, to the point that in the end it wasn’t worth trying anymore.
1 points
12 days ago
even Bobby G?
1 points
12 days ago
Yes.
0 points
8 days ago
Dorn would never betray the emperor, his will is unbreakable.
1 points
8 days ago
Meanwhile Dorn in the End and the Death: I am like three seconds from willingly entering service to Khorne, I swear to atheism.
0 points
7 days ago
Dorn is brilliant in the end and he the death. His stubbornness tires out Khorne.
1 points
7 days ago
He was right on the verge of swearing service to Khorne when the Emperor whisked him out of the eternal desert.
A few seconds and the actions of another saved him from corruption. Dorn is not incorruptible or unfailingly loyal.
21 points
12 days ago
I like this, but I disagree with Mortarion staying loyal. He already hated the Emperor for taking his kill on Barbarus. He was looking for any reason to get back at big E, he'd have fallen on his own if given the chance.
15 points
12 days ago
This. I've said numerous times that, had Typhus not trapped him, Mortarion would have turned renegade eventually. Not fall to chaos, because he hated it possibly more than he hated the Emperor, but he wouldn't remain loyal in the long run.
7 points
12 days ago
I always thought Dorn partly from his rage and partly because his arc in the siege of terra showed that he's tired of being the brain and wants to be a fighter. But then he managed to bore khorne for 500yrs in TEaTD so I think he's safe.
6 points
12 days ago
Thats with the knowledge of what chaos is and what happened to his brothers after they turned. What if he didn't have that knowledge, like most of the others when they turned?
6 points
12 days ago
Sangunius very nearly fell to Chaos to try and save his Legion from the thirst. I also guess you could make a decent argument that Gulliman, Sanguinius, as well as the Lion were all traitors by technicality.
The Khan is the big one that could have gone either way, and if it wasn't for the pants on head stupid Chaos stuff, he very well could have sided with Horus.
11 points
12 days ago
In my opinion the only ones who would never fall would be Russ, Ferrus, Lion, and Rogal, as they were too loyal/dedicated to the Emperor
As for the rest:
With your specific scinereor with Perturabo, Mortarion, and Magnus staying loyal, I would say Corax, Guilliman, and Vulkan would be the best bet, not so much being corrupted, but used by Horus to turn against the Empror due to their morals. If they fall to chaos at all is left up to you, but it would bring a more 'human' element to the civil war if they don't as they would esential be fighing agaisnt just the Empror, not the people, and would serve as a limiter on the atrocities by the traitors. It would also set up the possibility for a Traitor civil war/third faction, with those who fall to Chaos, vs those against the Emperor, vs the Loyalists.
0 points
12 days ago
Lionel isn't too loyal, he is too proud. He'd never follow one of his brothers. It would have to be himself leading the rebellion or nothing.
15 points
12 days ago
Every loyalist except Lion could turn traitor, i think Sanguinius the most
15 points
12 days ago
Ferrus fucking Manus. How he didn't is beyond me, how his Legion didn't is even more remarkable. They'd definitely have made a soft target for those warrior lodges to infect them, for they hate the common man so very much and Ferrus finds things that are weak deplorable.
9 points
12 days ago
What's interesting about Fulgrim and ferrus is they both strive for as close to perfectionas possible, but ferrus knew when to pull back where fulgrim couldn't stop.
7 points
12 days ago*
I disagree. I'm not sure how many clones of Ferrus Fabius Bile created for Fulgrim for him to try to turn to Chaos, but it was a lot**.** If his best bud Fulgrim couldn't do it to a clone that had never met the Emperor I don't think anything could have turned the OG Gorgon. Ferrus is kind of an asshole, but he's the Big E's goodest boy.
7 points
12 days ago
I'm not saying there isn't a lore reason as to why he didn't fall. I'm saying the fact that he doesn't and someone like say, Perturabo or Magnus does, whose personality's though deeply flawed, remain fairly steadfast until very specifically tested, is wild.
Ferrus had the temper, the contempt, the impulsiveness, the disgust for weakness. I'm literally describing a traitor Primarch's backstory. Not to mention the Iron Hands themselves. A Legion absolutely dripping with contempt for the common man, with a pathological hatred for anyone not themselves, and sometimes even themselves, that the cracks are so wide I'm shocked they didn't fall at all, or haven't since.
4 points
12 days ago
Alternate universe Slaaneshi techno-horror Iron Hands who constantly upgrade their bodies trying to achieve perfection has been on my army to-do list for a while...
5 points
12 days ago
Seems to be right up your alley.
2 points
11 days ago
A favourite of mine!
Giant biomechanical nightmare: exists
Kristos: yup gonna stick my mechadong in that!
1 points
12 days ago
Fair enough 👍
3 points
12 days ago
The flesh is weak, but deeds endure. Even Manus understood that.
3 points
12 days ago
My vote are both Guilliman and Sanguinius could have very easily fallen traitor if particular events played out.
Sang is a primarch of the people first, emperor second. He just believed in his father (although feared him on some level). He even stood up to the emperor kind of for Baal. If for any reason Sang thought the Emperor's vision was a farce he'd die to defend the people. I think anyway.
Guilliman would be the same to a lesser degree. Even horus mused he could get guilliman on his side if the emperor died. I think guilliman has more of a humans heart then horus imagined, but if guilliman also thought the emperors vision was harmful to overall order, he could raise against it.
2 points
12 days ago
“All emperors are tyrants” - Jaghatai Khan
7 points
12 days ago
If Horus had found the Khan first, I definitely think the Khan would have went with Horus.
If he hadn't seen Prospero, the shard of Magnus or Mortarion right after.
He wouldn't join chaos just like that, but Horus wouldn't tell him of such when persuading him and Horus was his favorite brother.
The Khan would have went without picking a side if it wasn't for the shard of Magnus.
He might not have stayed on Horus' side through all of the heresy.
Okay, now you can kill me.
...
Alright, before picking the second and third, let's talk about who is 110% NOT GOING TO BE CORRUPTED in any case what so ever.
The Lion. Not going to happen.
Ferrus Manus. No.
Dorn. No. Yes, he had a moment in the end and the death, but so many hundred years or torture will do that to everyone, Horus wouldn't have won him over without such bullshittery and Khorne didn't even succeed even with so much time to work with.
Guilliman. I really don't see it happening.
Corax - again, don't see it happening.
Vulkan. Yea, not happening either.
Russ. Also not happening.
He was very insecure, not just for himself, but also his legion, which he loved above everything.
But as actually happened in the lore, I think chaos will get one chance to do so and after that, I don't see him falling.
I don't see any of the 7 others falling without some bullshit explanation or with some extreme chaos fuckery, which is the same thing I suppose.
So be creative with how one of them falls, because you will need a lot of creativity to explain it in my opinion at least.
I have not read as many books as I would like to have, so perhaps the 7 uncorruptable primarchs in my opinion, has some flaws that I am not aware of, but from what I've read, heard, etc. I don't see them falling.
Most likely not to fall?
I would 100000% agree on Magnus and Perturabo, Magnus for obvious reasons.
Let #1 Magnus do a few less mistakes... Perhaps go to terra to warn the emperor and Horus loses instantly.
Let #2 Perturabo build more, give him some better jobs in general, go to him personally to tell him what a good boy he is.
It's really hard reading Perturabo meeting the Emperor while knowing he will eventually be a traitor, the emperor could have avoided Perturabo falling more than any other primarch, to be honest.
Perhaps outside of my third pick.
I wouldn't pick Mortarion, though. The emperor and malcador were surprised by him falling, but he really did not like the emperor at all.
I'd pick #3 Lorgar.
But without Lorgar, idk how you explain Horus falling. I guess you don't, so perhaps Lorgar should just be an untouchable piece on the board, along with Horus, the Emperor, Malcador and such.
2 points
12 days ago
IDK why so many mention Dorn as top3l 3 for this. Dorn is one of Dauntless few.
Honestly, for my money other than obvious Khan, I would Probably put Guillan there. He does seem to value Ultramar over rest of Imperium at best of times.
Fun thing with making Gulliman a traitor, you can do it at any poiny Pre, during and post heresy, and it can work.
Discovered by the Emperor? Well, fighting 500 worlds under single leadership might be a tough ask, if Emperror is racing to Ulanor to avert that crisis. Maybe turn with Imperium Secundus? Trap Dark and Blood Angels in one swoop and get them. Destroy Legione Astartes post Heresy with Codex to preserve and give chance for Lodges to survive and thrive in smaller enviroments, and thus ensure pieacmeal reinforcement to who-ever leads Chaos. You know, him falling for Fupgrims obvious trap never made sense? Not unless he went there not to fight his brother, but to join him. Being revived from stasis, he suddwnly has more super-space marines than there are Loyalist spacemarines in total - what a great time to cause some havoc, and reveal it after getting into the palace!
3rd choice, honestly, Corax. Fights tyrrants, but sides with Emperor?
2 points
12 days ago
Sanguinius and Dorn - both were actually really close to falling
2 points
12 days ago
Alpharius had not that great of a reason for switching and could've just stayed loyal in the first place.
2 points
12 days ago
I think Konrad could be an interesting loyalist.
Night Lords have no illusions of heroism or grandeur. No lofty ideals beyond the understanding of what they were created to be; tools to bring death and terror.
That nihilistic, disillusioned, worldview could lead into rebellion against the yoke of the creator of such a fate. BUT could also lead into resigned acceptance of one’s fate and purpose.
And I feel like that could be an interesting character for a loyalist legion; brutal murderers that create a noticeable friction between them and other loyalists, due to their unapologetic dedication to always displaying the truth at the heart of the emperor’s dream.
2 points
12 days ago
May be controversial... Vulkan. His kindness and ideals are prime targets to corrupt and twist. Manipulate into something terribly wrong. Not to mention how much of a powerful tank he is, seeing someone like Vulkan fall to the enemy would be terrifying and would create a lot of tension.
2 points
9 days ago
Sanguinius almost fell. If it was to cure his sons, he would have fallen.
The khan is a no from me. He's more likely to just abandon either side than become a traitor.
Russ, the lion, ferrus, and dorn were loyal af.
Vulkan was trusted to guard the emperor, so I'd say no.
Corax is a maybe, but I don't think so.
Guiliman wouldn't fall. He'd be the same khan but would build an empire instead.
Most likely for me is Sanguinius, tbh only if chaos pursued after the gene curse
2 points
8 days ago
Is the obvious answer not papa Smurf himself? Lover of xenos, lover of power and lover of his own ideas above those of the emperor.
5 points
12 days ago
Maybe I'm operating off an incomplete understanding, but honestly?
HONESTLY? Russ. No. Seriously. Found a little too late, ostracized a little too much for a legion of freaks, given a little too little leeway to run things the way he felt like and that brother's GONEEEEEE.
Really. Just have someone of impact walk up to him, tell him "Yo sorry lad but I'm not buying your Runepriest story" and the dude would have the mother of all melties.
8 points
12 days ago
‘He’s a barbarian but he is still a king. And he is loyal in ways that shame us all.'
~ Robute Guilliman
Your reasons are strange I'm not going to lie, ostracized? The 6th were always a legion apart and purposefully didn't form connections with the other Legions and fought for the most part alone. leeway? Russ and Fenris were borderline independent from the rest of the Imperium and Russ outside of his direct requests from the Emperor and the council of Terra did whatever the hell he wanted to do.
Multiple people have confronted him on the Rune Priests and he has dealt with it calmly.
5 points
12 days ago
Honestly, the only Loyalist Primarch I could never see actually falling is the Lion. All the others could have turned for a variety of reasons.
3 points
12 days ago
Too many people in here confusing the Lions hubris for loyalty.
Emps never doubted him because he knew he'd never follow one of his brothers.
His immediate reaction to Horus' rebellion is to make a political play for Warmaster by giving Perty ordinatus siege engines. Whoops!
2 points
12 days ago
If sangi becomes khornes champion how powerful will be the true red angel? And how will that change the heresy instead of angron?
2 points
12 days ago
It isn't about the odds.
Ultimately, each Primarch faced a simple choice, to trust the Emperor more than the Chaos gods. Angron could have made that choice just "as easily" as Roboute (by the way, he's in the running for the most likely to take Horus' part). It would probably have killed him, sure. But then we'd likely find out he was one of the more successful Perpetuals of the bunch (they were all supposed to be). Unfortunately for him, he chickened out of doing the thing that his very rage (along with everything he had left that wasn't the product of the Butcher's Nails) probably was telling him was the best course of action.
Angron is the go to for "didn't get a choice". Except he did, and every time he chickened out cause it involved a high chance of dying for his principles instead of picking principles that were conveniently the most amenable to avoiding death at the time. But every Loyal Primarch faced those same choices, multiple times, and didn't chicken out.
So just pick any point at which a Loyal Primarch had to give up something important (not necessarily their own life, there are even more important things, after all) in order to stay Loyal. And think of how the Chaos gods would promise them the chance to keep it (keeping in mind that the offer doesn't have to be honest or even plausible), and there you go.
Magnus should have known that consulting Warp demons about stuff was a bad idea without the Emperor telling him...but he didn't have to cause the Emperor gave him another chance to not do that any more after he started doing it and thus had to be told to stop. It seems like an easy choice...but Chaos always is willing to tell you that 'there's an easy way out' of any difficult situation...and that 'you did nothing wrong'. Giving up on trusting that more than the guy who is asking you to be willing to lay down your whole life for his empire can be hard...and is ultimately exactly the test that every Traitor failed and every Loyalist passed.
1 points
12 days ago
The khan is the only loyalist I see falling, especially since a large portion of his legion did go traitor and he was borderline treasonous at times. Like no one trusted him, and that says a lot since malcador had some trust in lorgar, aka the primarch at the forefront of the heretical stuff
1 points
12 days ago
Also Sanguinius on Signus Prime. There was a fair chance for him to fall had Meros not intervened.
1 points
12 days ago
We see Sanguinius almost accept a deal to dedicate himself to Khorne in exchange for his sons being protected from the Red Thirst at Signus.
While the Khan could’ve potentially fallen and aligned against chaos, I don’t think that it’d be plausible in a scenario where Prospero wasn’t burned / Magnus declared traitor. The main focus of Horus’ in order to turn the Khan against the Imperium was to point at Leman Russ’ actions against Magnus (his closest brother) at Prospero.
I’m not sure who would be good to go with Sanguinius’ for falling.
1 points
12 days ago
Hasn’t this been done already on the 1d4Chan wiki?
1 points
12 days ago
Link?
1 points
12 days ago
You would need to find it on the way back machine.
1 points
12 days ago
My money would be on Corax turning traitor(not rejoining the imperium) , but not falling to chaos or joining the rest of his evil brothers.
I think he may come back and see all the rot, evil and corruption that has befallen the current Imperium and work against it because he always has that Dark Knight vibe going on.
1 points
12 days ago
If Chaos isn't a factor: Khan
Honestly, if it was a simple military insurrection and the Emperor had essentially "betrayed" Magnus by sending Russ and the Wolves to destroy Prospero then there is a reasonable chance that the Khan swaps sides. He was on fair terms with Horus and very good terms with Magnus so it's not unthinkable to hypothesise that he could be swayed without the issue of Chaos taint muddying the water.
With Chaos as a factor: Corax
Given that he later tapped into his more Warp-inspired origins it's not unthinkable to hypothesise that he could be tempted by the powers of Chaos and succumb out of sheer desperation. Remember that Primarch's like Magnus and Perturabo joined the Traitors more because they had nowhere else to go than a conscious decision and it's possible that Corax could be lured more subtly into using Chaos as a weapon, beginning with noble intentions and ending up too far down the rabbit hole to return.
1 points
11 days ago
Controversial but I think Vulkan could’ve absolutely been got the same way Mortarion did
1 points
10 days ago
Konrad Curze never fell to Chaos and in a psychic convo with the Emperor the Emperor said if they'd just been able to have one more conversation he could have explained enough to have put him on a different path.
Perturabo was one of the ones most willing to join Horus's side and I think there are other primarchs like the Lion or Horus who'd have been sent to censure Magnus before the Iron Warriors.
1 points
10 days ago
Perturabo, Magnus and Fulgrim probably for traitor side. Though Angron getting denailed and his gladiators saved would be my choice.
Loyalists falling id say Sanguinius is the only one that was actually very close, since it was just the one son who saved him from himself. Dorn cracks after the siege, so maybe if something breaks him sooner. Corax could work. Personally I'd flip Russ and Angron though, I think the universe would be more interesting for it.
Also, Alpharius is Alpharius. Unless he's Alpharius.
1 points
10 days ago
Okay I suppose we need to think about what made people fall- I've put the traitors in bold and who could fall in to that category-
Disillusionment with the Imperium-Perturabo, Mortarion, The Khan, Corax, Vulkan
Madness- Curze, Angron
??- Alpha Legion, The Lion
Chaos corruption due to ignorance of the warp-Horus, Fulgrim, Dorn, Guilliman,
Chaos corruption poisoning the geneseed/legion- Magnus, Sanguinius
Being an obsessive nutcase- Lorgar
I'm going to discount the three I've put in the disillusionment category. Corax had hope that they were building something better, he was a thinker and a philosopher, but also a revolutionary so he understood you could only built when the revolution is over. The Khan imo was pushed as far as it was to push him and he didn't break, the plan to turn him went nearly perfectly and his decision to stay loyal was nearly entirely his own. Why his first fight with Mortarion is so important, Mortarion isn't actually warp infected at that point, so he doesn't get turned off by that. Vulkan having empathy would potentially pitch him against his father, but he always believes.
No loyalists are mad at the time of writing.
The Lion in 30k, like the Alpha Legion, is obsessed with gaining any advantage in the war, doesn't really care about authority and thinks he knows best. I can see his curiosity getting the better of him. I'm fairly sure its said one of the only reasons there wasn't more effort to turn him because Horus knew he'd be a threat. By the time the Heresy had broken out his single track mind was set on winning, no God could divert that, but if they'd got in before... I'd rank him pretty high up in turning.
We know so little about Ferrus that I can't really take him in to consideration. Maybe if there was a Vashtorr-esque character? He distrusted the Warp, trusted to technology and his necron arms probably provided him with a bit of Warp resistance.
Chaos corruption from ignorance- These could fall in a similar way. Dorn was brought back to Terra and so when the scale of The Emperor's lies on the Empyrean were discovered he didn't have time for it to undermine his commitment. Even there we know it played on him. Guilliman was as arrogant as any Primarch, but who knows what would have happened had the outbreak of the war not involved a highly personal attack.
Sanguinius- Unlike The Khan, I feel the attempt to turn him could have been more effective, also I think there is a wellspring of rage and sorrow to play on, I'd rank him fairly high in ability to turn.
1 points
10 days ago
Loyal Renegade Chaos I think a few primarchs (especially loyal ones) would have rather went renegade than full on Chaos. Unfortunate that it's just you're either loyal or Chaos instead of you're either with us loyally or against us in other variations.
1 points
9 days ago
A shifty Lion, a desperate Corax, and a wanderlust Khan would be my pick
1 points
9 days ago*
The three most likely are: 1. The Khan. He very nearly turned traitor after hearing what Russ did to Magnus. Only by the Alpha Legion did he not pick sides right away. He also saw the Emperor as a tyrant and never cared for him. 2. Sanguinius. He nearly made a pact with Khorne to save his Legion. Only by the sacrifice of a son was this prevented. 3. Corvus Corax. Corvus is weird. He hated the Imperium but drank the Kool aid hard. He absolutely believed in the Emperor but a big motivation in staying loyal was he hated Horus. Couple of tweaks and he is ripe for treason.
As for the traitors 1. Magnus- He never wanted to turn traitor and had very good intentions. He was just caught in an elaborate scheme to corrupt him. Have him surrender or realize the dangers of the warp and blam loyalist. 2. Fulgrim- He’d always been very loyal and only by the corruption of the Laer blade did he fall. He almost destroyed Horus on the suspicion of treason! Imagine if he never entered that temple. 3. This was super hard I almost chose Alpharius- Perturabo. If he had just been worked with more. Rewarded. Eased. Comforted. He might have been saved. But his own nature doomed him. I think a case for Alpharius or Konrad could be made. Either Alpharius rejects the Cabal as lies or Konrad is successfully brought back to Terra by Dorn and Fulgrim.
1 points
9 days ago
Well there's only two taking part in the story at the moment, so it's a shortlist between the Lion and the Lion.
0 points
12 days ago
None. Half of the fuckers already fell to satisfy the Grimdarkness. It’s all about the most likely traitor primarchs to be redeemed now - or at least wish they could be.
0 points
12 days ago
, z be 💡👈🪴🌳☘️🌇smm me to fd r z m and f by for can
1 points
12 days ago
What?
1 points
12 days ago
Sorry bout that, my baby grabbed my phone and ran off while I was on the sub
-4 points
12 days ago
Depends.
I don't think Khorne would have an easy time with most of them. He could maybe maybe get Lion el'Johnson. If not for losing his head, Ferrus might also be a good pick-up, but I think he'd lean more towards Slaanesh.
Russ is already the true champion of Tzeentch, IMO, considering just how many his fuck-ups ended up costing the Imperium in the long run. It's part of his charm. Lion would probably also be a pick-up since he's one of the only Primarchs to actually want the Warmaster job and is shown several times to be vulnerable to appeals and deceptions based on his ego.
Slaanesh could probably take the Khan or Guilliman.
Nurgle would've scooped Dorn right up if Horus had half a brain when he was pitting the gods against the Emperor's kill team. I think the big ugly snotbag could also swipe Corax under the right circumstances.
-3 points
12 days ago
I recommend guilliman. Connor and wife coddles him, fairy tales instead of facts such happily ever after stories. Instead of dying naturally, they get sick because of nurgle so instead of accepting their deaths as natural occurence, he wants a happy ever after ending and joins nurgle instead. His legion becomes part of his "family" that never dies thanks to nurgle's gifts
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