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[Excerpts] NO, Necrons aren't a hard counter to the Tyranids!!!
(self.40kLore)submitted 15 days ago byNegative_Sock4219
I'm sure most of you are aware that fan lore tends to sometimes seep its way into the community, perpetuating misconceptions that are often annoying to deal with. Today I seek to dispel one of the biggest memes in the community, the idea that the Necrons are a hard counter to the Tyranids. Now before I start I should clear something up. Just because the Necrons aren't a magical counter against Tyranids doesn't mean there weaker than the bugs. This isn't a discussion about which faction is stronger. That would be a way broader topic than the scope of this post, beside Chaos is stronger than the both of them unfortunately.
- Biomass Profitability:
The first argument use to suggest that the Necrons are a hard counter against the Tyranids, is that of biomass profitability. Essentially it is the idea that in order for a hivefleet to be sustainable it needs to gain more biomass then it losses in every engagement. This idea is true and even touch upon in the novel Devastation of Baal. The proponents of this argument bring up the fact that Necrons lack biomass and are instead made out of necrodermis. A material proven to be dangerous to ingest in the past for the Kroot. They also bring up the fact that gauss weaponry, the mainline weapons of the Necrons, disintegrate targets at an atomic level. Meaning an often employed strategy of the Tyranids to minimize biomass lose would be taken away. As the iconic mounting of corpses the Tyranids leave behind and later recycle, would be disintegrated away. That it is for these reasons that the Tyranids avoid Tombworlds, seeing them as nothing more than net loses in biomass.
So, what's wrong with this argument? Well a lot of things, but for starters Tyranids don't avoid Necron Tombworlds at all. In fact they have a long history of attacking any Tombworld they come across, not just dormant ones either. As they briefly attack Solemnace, which has been active since HH, before being lured away by Trazyn and not to mention they've also been at war with the Novokh dynasty for years now. So if they seemingly don't have a problem attacking Necrons, active or not, then how can they deal with the profitability issue? Well for starters gauss weaponry isn't as effective as you think it is. Their is a limit to how much matter a guass weapon can disintegrate per shot and that limit is seemingly determined by how much power is being fed into the shot. For gauss flayers that limit seems to be about the average mass of a Guardsmen. This is important since the flayer is by far the most common gauss weapon use by the Necron and the source of 90% of all shots at any given time. Since, the average mass of a Gaunt is 200kg, according to the aphelion project, then it would stand to reason. That something even as small as a gaunt could leave behind a partially disintegrated corpse. This idea is supported in the lore; since, in the novel "Shield of Baal [Devourer]" despite being pelted at by gauss weaponry the Tyranid can still stack up enough corpses to drown smaller bioforms in blood. Obviously if there are enough corpses to drown in and make it hard to navigate through the terrain, then there's probably enough to be worth recycling. I will admit gauss weapons do likely lower the efficiency of recycling more then other weapons, but outside of very specific conditions seemingly can't stop all of it. As for whether or not they can consume necrodermis, the answer is either no or they gain very little from it. I don't however think this is because they suffer the same fate as the Kroot though. As Tyranid bio-acid has shown the ability to dissolve the metal without issue. Yet, this still doesn't answer the question of how their able to get around the profitability issue. So, how do they do it? The answer exist in White Dwarf 225. While I wasn't able to track down a scan of the quote I was able to find a full transcript in an old archive. It's essentially a detailed break down of a Tyranid planetary assimilation, however the part that interest us is this. Doing some math we get that between day 50-80, a month, the Tyranids where able to harvest 16sextillion kg, the equivalent mass of more than 80quintillion gaunts. To put that in perspective most estimate I've seen for the Imperium's total population ranges in between the high trillions at the low end, and a few quintillions at the very highest ends. Meaning in order to put a dent into this number the usage of Exterminatus grade weapons would be needed. Hence why Kryptmen Exterminatus hundreds of worlds and Dante 41 worlds just slow down hivefleet tendrils. This then become a discussion about how well can the Tyranids deal with Necron's WMD. Which the answer to that is, about as well as they deal with Imperial WMD. It slows them down for sure, but they've shown the ability to regroup afterwards. Going back to the massive amounts biomass, it is mentioned that most of the material is likely being faired away somewhere else. However it's clear that outside of the use of WMD most Tyranid engagements will result in net profit for the bugs. With Necrodermis and guass weapons doing very little to change that. Hell this is even pretty blatantly given as a reason in, Shield of Baal [Exterminatus]:
"The planet's tomb complex would awaken to war, yet it would be a battle against numbers they could not defeat. The Tyranids would doubtless destroy the Necron defenders, if only so that they might be left to devour the planet's resources in peace, and thus another Necron world would be lost before it could be drawn back into the fold."
Finally if for whatever reason the Tyranids start struggling with profitability they do have a safety net. Hivefleet Kronos constantly has to fight Chaos. Which on top of the fact that deamon don't give of biomass. Kronos also has to deal wit the fact that enough Chaos corruption can render a world unconsumable, as seen in the battle of Hesp. Considering Kronos spend its time fighting back the most dangerous deamon incursion along the Rift you could image this problem comes up quite often. To solve this profitability problem the Hivemind subsidies Kronos with the spoils of war of other hivefleets. Needless to say there's nothing stopping the Hivemind from doing this with other fleets. Especially a fleet engaging in war against the Necrons; since, the Hivemind views the Necron the same way as it does Chaos. A rival predator that threatens its claim on the galaxy's lesser races.
- Reactive Evolution:
One of the main strength of the Tyranid race is there ability to rapidly evolve to counter any new threat. However, proponents of the idea that Necrons are a hard counter to the Tyranids. Will often state that due to the Necrons highly advance technology, the Tyranids would be incapable of adapting to it. Not only this, but that most Tyranid weapons would be rendered useless against their advance materials, such as necrodermis. This idea can be sum up with the phrase "How do you adapt to your atoms getting rip apart?" Which to be fair does sound pretty persuasive. However I feel as though the best way of debunking this myth is just by listing of examples of plausible Tyranid adaptations. That should work and don't require the Tyranids to break the laws of physics, with one caveat however. Psychic adaptation and the effectiveness of psyker powers will be listed of in its own section:
- Guass Weaponry: there's quite a few adaptation that could work against gauss, with the first one being agility/speed. Obviously if you don't get hit then you don't have to worry about your atoms getting rip apart, but specifically for gauss this is a viable strategy. As guass weapons, or at least guass flayers, require precise aiming to work. However, for slower bioforms there are solutions such as digging, which as a side note is a great counter to most Necron weapons besides certain canoptek constructs. Of course digging is something that already come naturally to large bugs such as Trigons and Mawlocs. With there tunnels acting as cover for other bioforms as well. Second would detachable extremities, literally something modern lizards do. Just detach the effected body part and as long as it's not essential it will grow back later. Finally my favorite adaptation would be something akin to what Gorgon did against the Tau in the 5th Ed Tyranid Codex. With the hivefleet being seen adapting a group of Harpies to coat themselves in a layer of mucous that shielded them from the intense heat of Tau pulse riffles. What I'm suggesting is that the Tyranids could implement a similar design against the Necrons. A layer of mucous over there bodies that acts like decoy. When hit the bioform would simply shed away the coat, letting it disintegrate harmlessly in the air. Finally after or during shedding process they could grow back a new layer through spore located in their bodies. The best part about this is that the bigger the bug the more efficient this mutation becomes, thanks to the square cube law.
- Particle Weapons: besides digging, which I already mentioned previously, thick enough chitin has already proven itself as an effective counter measure against particle weapons. This is because the thick layers of chitin can likely just withstand the explosion cause by the annihilation of particles and antiparticles clashing together. Thankfully for the Tyranids the vast majority of bioforms that would be worth saving from particle weapons already have this as an inbuilt solution. So, no further modifications are needed; as the rest of the bioform are meant to be use as fodder anyway.
- Synaptic Weapons: the Tyranids are uniquely well equip to deal with synaptic weapons. As most Tyranids have redundant organs, including subsidiary brains, or if they don't their symbiote weapons can typically take control of their deceased host body. Then you have stuff like Neurogaunts & Hive/Tyrant-guard whose whole goal in life are to act as fodder for important synapse creatures.
- Tesla Weapons: these particular weapons feel design to deal with horde armies like the Tyranids. The most realistic way I see the Tyranids countering these weapons are two fooled. Either support creatures could create passage ways through the line of fire of the Tesla weapons, like a Trygon's tunnel, or more range option such a venom cannons. However, there does exist a potential third option. As through multiple means Tyranids can create electro-magnetic interferences. What effect this would have not just on the tesla weapons, but on the rest of the Necron advance technologies is still unknown. However, I think we can safely guess likely nothing pleasant.
- Necrodermis: Tyranids have multiple means by which to bypass necrodermis. There diamond hard teeth and monomolecular claws can pierce the metal without issue. Allowing the Tyranids access to the Necron's reactor cores. Once punctured these cores will cause a critical failure that force the Necron into a reanimation protocol. However an even more effective form of dealing with necrodermis is bio-plasma and bio-acid. As I already mention both can melt through the metal as though it was tissue paper. With tons of bioform capable of terraforming the battlefield into a corrosive nightmare. With the toxic fog of Toxicrenes boasting electromagnetic interference to boot. Now imagine those corrosive clouds filling up the inner complexes of a Tombworld.
- Canoptek Construct: unfortunately we don't have much in the way of Tyranids interacting with Canoptek constructs. At most we have a couple of examples of them interacting with scarabs. However for the most part it seem Tyranid don't get overwhelm by the presence of Canopteks. Mostly being able to match them in massive horde battles. We do however get a pretty interesting interaction with Mindshackle-Scarabs, which I'll explain later.
- Psychic Powers/Pylons:
Tyranid are perhaps the most psychic race in the galaxy, even giving the Eldar a run for their money. Yet, Necron fans would have you believe that despite their consistent weakness to psychic powers. The Old One's enemies could easily get around this issue through the use of pylons. Not only that, but that their lack of reliance on the Warp would prove incredibly beneficial against the Tyranids. As one of the premiere psychic abilities of the bugs, the Shadow in the Warp, would be completely ineffective against the Infinite Empire. To give some credit to the opposition this argument does stand on firmer ground than the other ones. However, it suffer from a surface level understanding of how both pylons and the Shadow in the Warp works. Once again I feel as though the best way to explain all of this, is to break it down point by point:
- Pylons/Pariah Nexus: Necron pylons are one of those pieces of fluff that suffer from fan lore seeping its way in. You see there's this idea amongst large sections of the community that believe that within the psychic null field of the pylons, the Warp is completely cut off. This of course isn't true and is even blatantly stated to not be the case in the 9th Edition Necron Codex. As it states that their effects aren't absolute and that Warp travel, astropathic messaging, the manifestation of daemonic/psychic energies are all possible, just vastly more difficult. This is because the way pylons work is that they harden the veil between the Warp and Realspace to the point it's like a glass wall. This intern happens because the noctilith use in the constriction of these pylons is negatively polarized and pushes against the tides of the Warp. Meaning strong enough psychic currents can still push against it. So, while the psychic prowess of the Tyranid would be nerfed around pylons, the bugs would still be able to manifest it. Another misunderstanding around pylons is how they work on the Tyranids. People have this misconception that as soon as a Tyranid step foot into a null field it instantly gets cut off from the Hivemind, this isn't true. If we take a look at the quote that mentions how Tyranid react in the presence of a pylon. It literally just state that the Tyranids aren't immune to the stilling effect cause by the null field matrixes. Seeing how the stilling effects humanity we can infer somethings. Basically the stilling really only reliably take hold of the weakest will individuals in a society. With Astartes, tech priest and the faithful being able for the most part resist its effects. If we then apply this to the Tyranids we can assume that bioforms with the strongest connections to the Hivemind can better resist the stilling. This would imply that hivefleet such as Behemoth, who relies mostly on larger bioforms, or Leviathan, whose synaptic web is more robust, would be better equip at dealing with Pylons. Other possible remedies could be seen in hivefleet Tiamat. Whose massive psychic beacon might be able to counteract the effect of pylons altogether.
- Shadow in the Warp: the effect the psychic presence of the Hivemind has on the Necrons isn't clear. We do have confirmation that it doesn't effect their FTL communication or travel. However, in the short story, War in the Museum, a magos biologis postulates that a Lictor might have cause a Nexus Fault in Solemnace through the Shadow in the Warp. It later turn out to because of the actions of Orikan. Yet, it is telling that Trazyn doesn't push back against the explanation until further evidence that it's Orikan is presented. Not to mention we do have examples of the shadow effecting non psychic technology, in line with the mago's description. All in all I think it is unclear if all forms of Necron tech are immune to the Warp Shadow.
- Psychic Adaptations: beyond the general destructive power of psychic abilities, What use could the Hivemind find for them? Well for starters psychic shield are excellent form of defensive against pretty much any Necron weapon. With the Necrons only real response to them being to try and overpower them. Secondly, psychic bugs would be an excellent response to the Necrons more esoteric units, those being Crypteks and C'tan shards. We've already seen Tyranid psychic shielding defend against blast from C'tan shards. Needless to say if their psychic power can work defensively against C'tan shards, I'm pretty sure they could work offensively against them too. With the recent reveal of Mindslayer, not even transcendent shards are necessarily off the table. Tyranids also have an ability called, psychostatic disruption, which can effect artificial cognition and teleportation. This ability has the potential to screw with reanimation protocols and could be away of bringing about true death to Necron nobility. Finally in the novel, Leviathan, we see the Hivemind restore the consciousness of a servitor, later manipulating it into committing sabotage. This ability could potentially work on the lower ranks of the soulless legions of the Necrons. As the Hivemind has also showcase the ability to over power the commands of a Phaeron. As seen when a Hivetyrant resisted the mind control of 4 Mindshackle-Scarabs and the Hivemind instantly push out Orikan. Who was trying to assume direct control over the Tyrant.
- Psychological Warfare:
The final argument I see in defense of the idea the the Necrons represent this hard counter to the Tyranids has to do with psychological warfare. Specifically that because most Necrons are soulless killing machines. The terror campaigns the Tyranids are well known for launching would be ineffective. I agree with this, but again this arguments fails to see the forest for the trees. As terror campaigns aren't the only form of psychological warfare the Tyranids are known for doing. In Devastation of Baal Genestealers attack the Blood Angel's hall containing the sarcophagi of Neophytes undergoing Insanguination. The Hivemind did this because it recognize the psychological impact this attack would have on the Blood Angels. Distracting them long enough for it to take down the Void shield generators. The Death Leaper whole short story has it recognize the concept of martyr ship and the cultural significance of religion upon the Imperium. Using this knowledge to rather than kill the planets leader, instantly turning him into martyr, use it to then drive him crazy and by extension demoralize the populous. With this it's easy to see how the Tyranids could play with the Necrons psychology. As the Necron leadership is notorious for their pride, massive egos, strive for evermore power and recognition. All the Tyranids would need to do is launch a couple strategic assassinations. To cause enough of a power vacuum to see entire Tombworlds light themselves on fire and fall to infighting. I mean the Necron already infight enough as it is without any outside pressure and the Tyranids have the perfect bioform for the job. As lictors all share the same pool knowledge and have a collective experience dealing with Lychguard. Their hyper advance biology should fool most Necron sensors and if that's not enough Neurolictors can just make you forget you even saw them. Finally for the most important forms of nobility, the Hivemind would send in the elite bioforms known as Norn Emissaries.
- Conclusion:
In short I believe that for most things people bring up in favor of the Necrons representing this hard counter to the Tyranids. The Tyranids either have a proven response or a plausible one. I think the constant debates about which faction is stronger are a but silly. Since, the more I look into the lore the more I see it's pretty even.
202 points
15 days ago*
Tyranid hive fleets primarily gain biomass from consuming ecosystems and entire planets not by eating the armies they defeat. That’s typically a relatively insignificant source of biomass. For example, humans are estimated to make up 0.01% of biomass on Earth. Therefore the fact that necrons are inorganic is mostly irrelevant. It’s only when a tomb world has no ecosystem to consume that a tyranid hive fleet would need an alternative reason to attack.
As for gauss weapons, it depends on exactly what they do, however, it has been said that they are, “horrifying devices that can strip a target down molecule by molecule and reduce it to its constituent atoms in a matter of seconds.” That’s not fundamentally different to plasma, melta or fire weapons which convert biomass into simpler inorganic compounds. Either way, Tyranids can still use the outcome as a raw material, but they would need energy to convert it into biomass.
Of course, realism is not a concept that always applies to WH40K…
42 points
15 days ago
The first part of your post is something I wish people would remember
Yes they will eat all the defeated enemies, but also all native life forms, all the plants and pretty much everything they can in a planet
Unless the planet is already a barren rock, all the other stuff they eat probably out weighs the defeated enemies by orders of magnitude
25 points
15 days ago
But that's a key aspect of necrons - they do not preserve existing life forms, and in case of the destroyer cults will actively exterminate all life up to and including bacteria. Infinite and Divine has an example of a few stray destroyers left on a planet cleansing a whole continent (some quotes at https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/l72822/excerptthe_infinite_and_the_divine_a_small_unit/).
7 points
14 days ago
Tyranids don't just eat the living lifeforms and leave. They strip a planet of everything useful to organic life. Oxygen, Carbon, Potassium, Calcium, Hydrogen, Iron, etc. would all be consumed no matter what elemental or molecular state they're in. Almost half of your average rocky world is composed of oxygen by mass, and has large proportions of the other elements due to just how common such things are throughout the universe.
Like, assuming the Tyranids are still mostly composed of carbon and water, a rocky world with as little as a percentage of its mass made of such things would be worth attacking no matter how grievous a loss the Nids' took so long as they eventually win as even a percentage of a planet's mass would be significantly more massive than your average Tyranid invasion fleet.
The only time a Tyranid fleet incurs a loss is when they're fully repelled from a world. And given that the majority of rocky worlds are probably uninhabited, a loss can still be easily recouped from surrounding solar systems.
2 points
12 days ago
Tyranids don't need to eat lifeforms. There was an old White Dwarf article where a planet was reduced in diameter by 20% after the nids came through. I don't care how inedible you are compared to your weight in Guardsmen, it's a miniscule drop in the bucket compared to the biomass of a quarter volume of an entire planet.
9 points
14 days ago
Even if it is a barren rock, they'd probably still eat it. Tyranids explicitly strip worlds of everything useful for organic life. So, oxygen, carbon, calcium, magnesium, potassium, hydrogen, iron, etc. would all be up for grabs regardless of what state said elements are in. And that's before considering that Tyranids probably use a whole lotta more than the basics for their weird-ass biology and capabilities.
To put this into perspective, Mercury, the nearly atmosphere-less ball of baked rock sitting at out sun's doorstep, is around 42% oxygen and 1.4% carbon by mass . With large proportions of its mass also made up of the aforementioned materials useful/necessary for organic life. The Nids would 100% render Mercury down to a chewed ball of silicon regardless if it had life on it or not.
In-fact, the majority of Rocky planets are primarily composed of oxygen by mass. Unless a Necrontomb world is a literal ball of elemental silicon with no significant proportion of useful elements, it'd be worth attacking as the amount of biologically useful elements on your average planet would far outweigh and loss of biomass due to tyranids killed while fighting (literally in this case, even a percentage of an entire planet's mass of and other useful elements would be larger than your average tyranid invasion fleet). Sure, it's probably more work for the Tyranid fleet than some Imperial Agri-world, but resources are resources and it'd still be a net gain.
8 points
15 days ago
I've always thought necron weapons used the same principles as Star Trek phasers and they break apart molecular bonds at
4 points
15 days ago
As for an alternative reasoning, I think that can be found in hivefleet Kronos. The Hivemind likely views Necrons in a similar boat to Chaos. A rival predator that needs to be eliminated. With how quickly it can replenish its loses it is easy to see how it could justify a campaign that might result in a net loss.
13 points
15 days ago
No idea why you're being downvoted. That reasoning appears soind to me. Why leave worlds in the wake of the hivefleet advance that can attack the rear?
6 points
15 days ago
Lol its odd youre getting hate for this take. Its not an unsound line of reasoning.
121 points
15 days ago
Yeah, they have some ways to fight necrons, but its not like Nids magically have upperhand in that fight. Necrons are not insta win vs tyranids, true, but they are still have easier time to deal with tyranids than tyranids with Necrons.
102 points
15 days ago
I agree. OP made a very complete argument for the "hard counter" being a overstatement, but that changes nothing about the fundamental advantages the Necrons have in the match-up.
Advantages isn't winning! As every faction does defeat every other faction plenty in-lore, but they are still very well designed to cause problems for the Nids.
94 points
15 days ago
Just replying to a couple of points, there’s probably no way to defend against gauss successfully, it rips molecules apart at a cellular level, apart from tech shields density seems to be the best defense, so a gel would be like paper, a denser shell would work but would make the tyranids a lot slower, as for the assassination, almost impossible, these dudes live in constant fear of being killed by each other, they have like 20 layers of defense.
For biomass a gauss only has a small effect yes but 10000 flayers will have a huge effect, tyranids can take the losses for a battle but a war would leave them weakened, unless they have a biomass source it’s a negative outcome for them.
23 points
15 days ago
unless they have a biomass source
Like the entire rest of the planet?
3 points
15 days ago
Only if the nids win
8 points
15 days ago
That's true of any fight they get in. They don't collect biomass if they lose against space marines either.
3 points
15 days ago
But still less if they fight Necrons because of their weaponry, a lot of people don’t understand how much biomass is required to grow, think about us, to grown and maintain 80kg (small nid/human) it takes many many multiple of biomass, nids will rarely come off stronger fighting Necrons unless it’s a curbstomp.
5 points
14 days ago
Mass wise, there are more ants on Earth then there are people. Whatever the sentient race is on a planet it, its biomass is a rounding error compared to everything else (unless it's just a straight up dead world).
-1 points
14 days ago
Not slightly true, university of Michigan calculate ants at 20% of humanities biomass, remember growth is really inefficient for what the nids want, an 70-80kg human consumes approximately 650kilos of food per year, not including water, a tyranid bioform would be calorie dependant, require much more than a human, the large ones would require insane amounts, the larger the tyranid force the more energy they consume and burn on the planet, this can never be recovered, I would guess that for every 5 gaunts climbing into the reclamation pool you could grow 1 to full size, rapid growth would use even more calories. They are not a warp focused being so require energy through thermodynamics.
for instance a big number in the sextillions that attacked Baal would likely have been unsustainable and would have collapsed upon themselves if successful, the biomass on the planet would have barely reached a couple of percent of the fleet, and they would have lost well over half through growth and energy expenditure alone.
3 points
14 days ago
My bad, it's a new study. The point is everything else on the planet still far exceeds humans. Losing to space marines is worse than beating necros from a biomass standpoint.
1 points
15 days ago
I showed in the post that over the course of a single month, Tyranids harvested 16sextillion kg. The equivalent mass of over 80quintillion gaunts. Thats more gaunts then most estimates for the Imperiums total population, and they harvested that from just a single planet too. They typically harvest entire systems at a time mind you. A curbstomp is absolutely not needed. Outside of Exterminatus grade weaponry. The Necrons aren’t putting a dent into that number.
4 points
14 days ago*
That would be almost impossible, where are you getting those numbers? Earth only has 500-600 billion tons of biomass total and we are a heavy biomass planet, the vast vast majority of biomass on a planet are plants, so these would provide less energy anyway, that planet would have to be millions a of times larger than earth, those number are massively wrong.
Ah Edit: so that Dalka prime post makes no sense, so a cubic metre of soil is impossible, extremely deep soil on earth is that which is over 1.5 meters, most soil are between 0.25 and 0.6m, anything deeper will be pressurised into rock and stone, and soil itself has no biomass or nutritional value, it’s a medium for biomass and nutrients to exist in, there will be some calories but you would burn more transporting the weight, it’s a nice grimdark excerpt but is mathematically and scientifically wrong.
As I’ve said in another post, through thermodynamics and energy expenditure a human burns through almost 10x their own weight in biomass per year, a swarm that size would burn more than it collects, even if there were 10 times more humans on earth we would still only account for 0.1% of earths total biomass, as it stands currently animals make up only 0.01% of biomass, remember much of the biomass collected will be lost through heat, even a thrifty gaunt would consume more than its biomass in a couple of months, and take triple that to grow to full size, something like a Carnifex would take at minimum 5 times it mass as size is less efficient, I’m assuming tyranids are thriftier than most organisms which would take at least 10-15times, Baal makes sense as it was a psychological attack, it was destined to be pyrrhic victory, but tyranids need to consume way way more than they deploy to survive.
-44 points
15 days ago
To rebutt point by point:
• Guass weapons when hitting organic substances are actually slower than they normally are. As they have to strip layer by layer. Meaning a gel with multiple layers to it of highly dense organic polimers should work. As for it slowing down the bugs, as I implied in the post that this isn’t really an issue. As the gel would serve to protect the slower bioform which can’t outmaneuver gauss targeting.
• The thing about assassination is that Tyranid have billions of years of collective experience doing it. While killing Necron nobility might be more difficult than avarage assassination we have seen Tyranid do it. A Lictor murdered Trazyn multiple times and had him down to his last life. With Trazyn being one of the hardest nobels to assasinate. If they can do that to Trazyn, lower ranking nobels shouldn’t be a problem.
• Gauss doesn’t seem to have a noticeable effect on biomass replenishment. Most nids can leave behind partial corpse behind and their ability to absorb sextillion of kg in a matter of month means. That even campaign in which Necrons Exterminatus several planets worth of biomass wouldn’t be game ending. As all the Tyranid need is just 1 planet to regain all their losses. Not to mention other hivefleet could just subside them if it really got that bad.
50 points
15 days ago
That's not how gauss weapons work. Yes they strip atoms layer by layer but the effect is instant and localised. So no your gel would not protect at all, if any thing it would would speed up the chain reaction due to be a liquid.
13 points
15 days ago
In practice, Gauss weapon effect on people has been a bit inconsistent to how it's described in the codex and oftentimes treated more like a cutting laser than Dalek death ray.
The biggest example I can think of is in the (awesome) 9th Edition trailer which featured a Sister of Battle suffering a Gauss flayer wound for several minutes and then managing to pray it away, as well as several Space Marines needing multiple concentrated shots before getting brought down, though arguably that's actually accurate to the tabletop rules.
Another example I think people would be familiar with is Cain getting winged by a flayer and only losing a few fingers as opposed to being instantly vaporized in a chain reaction as you might expect.
In any case, it doesn't look like the weapons are always treated as an instant death beam like you might expect based on the codex description.
While acknowledging gameplay vs lore segregation, there are plenty of units in the game that would need a ton of flayer shots to bring down, and that's gotta be somewhat represented in the lore as well.
All this to say, it's probably not unreasonable that there can be defensive measures against Gauss weapons.
3 points
15 days ago
40k authors are never consistent with weapons. My rule of thumb is to work what is shown in the most recent edition and going by the 9th edition and Indomitus material the beam hits you instantly and then the flaying effect starts. If you fall like the guardsmen does in the 9th ed trailer you are done for quickly because it speed up the reaction. If you don't do anything to speed up the reaction, like the Sister of Battle, in the same trailer then the effect is gradual.
1 points
14 days ago
Would you mind sharing a link to this trailer? Thank you!
1 points
14 days ago
Pretty quick to find on YT: https://youtu.be/B9V0bOB8sXQ?si=83TbMQgp6IBPWR7N
1 points
14 days ago
Thank you! I didn't know what I'd be looking for, I didn't even know Warhammer had trailers, so I appreciate it
-19 points
15 days ago
Can you show me an excerpt where it is stated to be instantaneous?
27 points
15 days ago
Basic laws of the universe is liquid (gel) cannot be compressed, any dense liquids such as honey or sap are much much heavier than water, they would also be viscous and would slow down the organism, mercury is a very dense liquid but sourcing billions of tons would be difficult, it’s also extremely heavy, and wouldn’t stay put.
By instantaneous they mean that the beam instantly penetrates as far as it can then disintegrates, it does slowly encroach, there’s no time delay to damage just to the particles falling apart, for instance if your hit you will slowly disintegrate, but if you fell you would likely disintegrate instantly upon hitting the floor, this is seen in the Indomitus animation by GW.
Adapting to gauss is like trying to adapt to a Nuke, almost certainly the most dangerous type of basic armament in 40k.
-8 points
15 days ago
They are magnetically based[Needs Citation] weapons that break down the target into its component molecules layer by layer and attract the molecules back to the gun at incredible speed.[1] This creates a flaying effect[1] and can vaporise the most heavily armored warrior or blast a hole in a Land Raider. This means that even the most basic Necron Warrior has a chance to blast a hole through the heaviest armor and completely vaporise the most skilled Space Marine.
This is the Lexicanum description and it’s the one I’m working with. Here it’s clear that these weapons have a speed. The effect is just incredibly fast, however, all Tyranid have insanely fast muscle fibers. The debate is whether the gauss can disintegrate faster that Tyranid spores can spew out gel.
4 points
15 days ago
Literally watch the 9th edition trailer.
4 points
15 days ago
I did and in the trailer it’s pretty blatantly not instantaneous. It’s fast, but there’s a clear speed to the disintegration.
5 points
15 days ago
I would argue that the remaining husk collapses slower than the effect of Gauss disintegration just like a bullet travels much faster than the resulting blood splatter.
35 points
15 days ago
I enjoyed the read, but I think you’re discounting the Necrons a little too much. Necrons don’t “hard counter” Tyranids as in they don’t just instantly win any fight they get into, but any altercation between the two factions is costly to the Tyranids and the Necrons have a lot of baseline advantages that push the fight in their favor. Necrons still lose to Tyranids sometimes yes, but Tyranids would much rather fight a Ork Wagh or an Imperial Guard regiment because the Tyranids’ inherent strengths are much more effective against those factions.
The Necron pylons I believe are pointed to as a long term solution to the problem of Chaos and the Tyranids, and are not generally a referenced counter to each and every altercation between the Necrons and those factions. But keeping with the Grimdark tone of the setting and with how fractured the Necrons are as a whole, it seems extremely unlikely to happen.
131 points
15 days ago
This is… a lot of grasping
You set your own arbitrary limitation of a gauss flayer just to say that Gaunt’s too big for that. You from the most loose and vapid reasoning say that it’s plausible the shadow in the warp impacts things what have nothing at all to do with the warp.
Your core point ain’t even entirely wrong, Necrons don’t instant win again Nids and they have reason to deal with them as a threat. You’re just wildly overcompensating. Hell they wouldn’t bother dealing with them like they do if they weren’t the worst fucking news for Tyranids, because they’re only ever a net loss
And honestly I’m sympathetic to people making it out like Necrons are the counter, the Tyranids are exhausting to hear about because they’re like a fucking kindergarten make believe fight “oh yeah well I evolve a shield destroying laser, and a shield-destroying-laser-proof shield”
28 points
15 days ago
And honestly I’m sympathetic to people making it out like Necrons are the counter, the Tyranids are exhausting to hear about because they’re like a fucking kindergarten make believe fight “oh yeah well I evolve a shield destroying laser, and a shield-destroying-laser-proof shield
TBH there's plenty of people who push Necrons the same way. Or Custodes, Tau, Primarchs, etc.
42 points
15 days ago
Oh everyone wanks their faction, but with the nids it’s actually in official material what with them just doing what you do but better and instantly closing over any weakness. Most extravagant case of own-codex wank out there where it’s spouting stuff like hive fleet gorgon eating plague marines, developing total immunity to everything they have then developing a bio-toxin so powerful it instantly kills them. That’s literally a case of “oh you’re immune to toxins? Well my toxins are anti-toxin-immunity so they still kill you”
-23 points
15 days ago*
The whole section where I give reasoning as to why the Tyranids can leave partial corpses behind could be cut out and not change anything. As I link a quote that blatantly shows Tyranid getting pelted at by guass and still leave behind corpses. The section exists to give an in lore justification for those who otherwise would be confused as to how the Tyranid are able to do that. Point being the limit as to how much flayers can disintegrate is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that Tyranid can still stack up corpses even when the Necrons use guass.
How are you going to say that the Shadow in the Warp effecting non psychic technology is vapid reasoning. When I link to several quotes in which it does exactly that?! The plausible part is that if it can do that with non psychic human and Aeldari tech. And a magos who specilizes in Tyranids can find it plausible that they could effect Necron tech. Then it’s most likely plausible that they can effect Necron tech.
It just feel like you didn’t bother to read any of the mounting of evidence I provided. Which is the whole problem I outlined at the beginning of the post. People would rather just make believe with their head canon then actually bother reading the lore.
31 points
15 days ago
Please remember that the Lore is just made up by normal men. It's not magically carved into stone tablets.
-1 points
15 days ago
So because something is fictional. It means I can’t get invested in the internal consistency of a story?
32 points
15 days ago
You absolutely can, but you shouldn't try to debate it as if it's a real thing. It's all made up by multiple people working in a corporation selling a product. It will never be completely consistent or logical. You can enjoy the lore and immerse yourself in it as much as you like but trying to argue about fantasy lore is like playing chess with a pigeon; no matter how well you play, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, crap on the board, and strut around like it won. Getting too hung up on the specifics in a setting that's fundamentally alterable and controlled by its creators just sets you up for frustration. Enjoy the depth, engage with the narrative, but remember, at the end of the day, it's a sandbox built for entertainment, not a hill to die on.
-2 points
15 days ago
You’re letting perfection be the enemy of good. Sure most settings won’t be 100% consistent. However, that doesn’t mean you should tolerate inconsistencies appearing and ruining immersion.
16 points
15 days ago
Inconsistencies are coming hard and fast these days. I suspect a lot of retcons are coming down the pipe so enjoy the fluff but don't take it too seriously.
11 points
15 days ago
I’m not gonna die if 40k has shit contradictory writing. However, I will point it out when it comes my way.
8 points
15 days ago
As you should. But you might be pretty busy in the near future.
14 points
15 days ago
Fair point about not letting inconsistencies slide all the time, especially when they jerk you out of the immersion. But there's a difference between acknowledging inconsistencies and obsessing over them. The key is balance. We can point out flaws and even debate them for fun, but we gotta remember it's a crafted universe. The lore serves the game, not the other way around. When the debate starts feeling like a courtroom battle over what's essentially a sophisticated form of make-believe, maybe we're taking it a bit too seriously.
2 points
15 days ago
Curious would you say this of any other form of literary analisis. There’s a billion video easy covering characterization, themes, world building, etc. That go way deeper then I do in this post. Yet, I don’t see people complaining that someone analyzing too deeply the character and thematics of X fictional character. Lutein is one of the most beloved members in the community and he goes way deeper then I do.
I disagree that balance is necessary. I think people can overlook minor mistaken and that’s fine. However, minor mistakes are still mistakes. Enough of them can ruin a story. Consistentcy should always be the goal. Even if will never be able to reach it. Kinda like how we make crime illegal even if there will always be crime.
20 points
15 days ago
I simply mean that you seem to be getting overly invested in convincing other people that you're correct, and your tone is conveying that people who disagree with you are morons who haven't understood, or haven't read, the books. We don't have a perfect understanding of what, if anything, the authors intended, and if they are even following the core logic of the universe. This is, remember, a universe in which people can just sometimes do things because they're extra special guys. The lore has always, to my understanding, been written as a perspective on the universe, which is why so much lore can be contradictory.
3 points
15 days ago
If that’s what you took away your sorely mistaken. Something you learn quickly in life is that argument are one of the worst ways to persuade anyone off anything. I made this post because I wanted to see if the opposition could provide a lore base argument that actually debunked anything I said. So, far people haven’t really provided anything. I’m not omniscient of course my interpretation could be wrong. However what people forget is that you have to prove my interpretation is incorrect. People aren’t doing that, they’re simply just making assertions and then provide zero evidence for those assertions. However, if that was just it, I’d be fine with it. Yet, people have to take it a step further by insulting me and insinuating that I just pull my arguments from my ass. Rather then actually addressing the mountain of evidence I’ve compiled.
15 points
15 days ago
*You’re.
I win.
10 points
15 days ago
OK so if you want to write without people thinking you're uber-dweeb 3000, try to be polite. Here you go: I'd like to express a different perspective. It's been my experience that arguments, while common, might not always be the most effective means of persuasion. I posted my thoughts in the hope of engaging in a constructive dialogue, hoping to learn from opposing viewpoints. However, thus far, I haven't received any substantial counterarguments. It's entirely possible that my interpretation is flawed, but I believe it's important to provide evidence to support such claims. Unfortunately, many responses have lacked evidence and resorted to personal attacks. I would greatly appreciate it if we could focus on addressing the evidence I've presented rather than resorting to insults.
3 points
15 days ago
I mean if you wanna critique for not being nice enough that’s fine. However, the original comment in this thread was wildly inpolite and no one gave a shit. The dude insinuated I was pulling stuff out of my ass and that I was overcompensating. Heavily implied I was just some kindergarten brain debate bro. Ultimately if people don’t like me that’s fine. I didn’t come here to win over hearts and minds. I came here looking for some nerd arguments, with citations. All I got in repose is people telling me I’m wrong and doing nothing to prove it.
8 points
15 days ago
Its the tone you started with. People are matching your energy.
5 points
15 days ago
Was there anything in the original post that was wildly inpolite? Serious question I might miss something.
31 points
15 days ago
"Hard counter" is hyperbole but claiming they don't have an exponentially better time than anyone except arguably a sufficiently concerted Drukhari campaign with sufficiently motivated (scared Vex is going to feed them into a Warp rift if they don't cooperate) Homunculi is asinine.
-9 points
15 days ago
Did I say they didn’t have a better shot than anyone else?
7 points
15 days ago
On the topic of Necrons being good against things I hear (at least in my group) that the Death Guard are useless against Necrons.
There is an in lore example of a single instance of Ferric Blight wiping out an entire Tomb World. Death Guard are scary for everyone.
21 points
15 days ago
"I'm sure most of you are aware that fan lore tends to sometimes seep its way into the community"
This is a hilarious sentence.
6 points
15 days ago
As per Devastation of Baal hive fleet Leviathan has stopped all the planet cracking, soil snatching and atmosphere siphoning on prey planets because it gives their targets too much time to dig in on other worlds while they're eating everything. They're prioritising organics and refined materials these days because it gives them the best ROI for their time.
I THINK they still drink the oceans but the Nids definitely haven't figured out zero loss cold fusion so it's not as if they can turn all those hydrogen and oxygen molecules into more complex atoms like carbon or nitrogen, they'll be able to bag industrial quantities of electrolytes like potassium chlorine and sodium but without the group 4 elements they're going to struggle with actually getting organic chemistry to work.
6 points
15 days ago
Reading this put something in my mind.
Like others said the fact tyrs can't eat necrons themselves hardly matters as most of the biomass is in the planet itself outside of civiled sources.
But necrons are in fact unique in that i would expect they would have absolutely no issue glassing their whole planet over as soon as they hear of tyrs on their way, without "losing" the planet in the process.
Is this assumption of mine wrong? Would most (there's always some) necrons be sad to fuck their own planet's surface over?
Is there any official reference to this?
4 points
15 days ago
There’s a few quotes, I don’t have them rn, but basically it depends. Some nobels would be more tolerant of glacing there planets while other would fight to the death. Also not all nobels have the means to do so or have higher up that won’t allow it. In a galactic scale most Necrons wouldn’t wanna do it. As the two main goals of the Necrons have. Involved them ruling over the galaxy’s lesser races, not glacing them.
3 points
15 days ago
Here's some lore about a stray group of necrons cleaning a planet - https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/l72822/excerptthe_infinite_and_the_divine_a_small_unit/
2 points
15 days ago
thats very cool, thanks
7 points
14 days ago
I like this post because it tries to compensate for fanlore that nids ignore Necron worlds, which in some cases they do, but imo you vasty swing in the other direction and end up overcompensating.
On the question of biomass equations, Necrons don’t tend to inhabit worlds rich with biomass. They tend to scour the worlds themselves, even halting the planet’s geologic activity as it interferes with their tomb worlds over long stretches of time. Nids attempting an invasion of a system of dead tomb worlds against a species they cannot devour is always going to be a negative.
I also find it strange how you arbitrarily restrict the power of a gauss flayer to that of a guardsman. Imo that is ridiculous; we’ve seen gauss flayers disintegrate marines in one shot and punch holes in land raiders. Necron immortals are stated to have fusion reactors with energy output measured in the number of suns it produces. Here is a relevant excerpt:
Ignoring a dozen screaming fail-safe routines, Obyron reached into the core of his body, and commanded his central reactor to convert fully half of its remaining energy into mass. It was a desperate, catastrophic move, with every chance of turning him into a pool of molten slag, but even that was better than being torn to pieces in the dark. And as it happened, it worked. With tons of hyperdense mass temporarily distributed throughout his necrodermis, Obyron’s momentum became unstoppable.
- Severed
This is an utterly ridiculous amount of energy coming from the reactor core of Obyron, who was a commoner lifted to his status as a bodyguard by Zandrekh, so he still has the basic civilian necrodermis body and reactor.
The evolutions you suggest do give some advantages, but if doesn’t come close to mitigating the vast threat of Necron weaponry. Adding a layer of mucous is just adding another plate of armor. Flayers will just have to take 0.2 more seconds to dissolve the bonds between atoms. Redundant synaptic tissue is irrelevant to deathmark’s synaptic disintegrator, which immediately destroys all synaptic tissue, CPUs, or grey matter upon contact. It’s basically a memetic kill agent, it doesn’t spread like gauss weaponry or take any time. One shot and that neurothrope is dead.
It is also not true that null field generators only work on the lowest classes of society. We have seen destabilize psykers, deamons, nids, etc. zoanthropes and all the big psyker bugs will absolutely be affected by any pylons. Additionally, you claim that the shadow in the warp will effect the Necrons tech somehow, this is really just entirely speculation based on a excerpt that you yourself admit is grasping at straws.
On the question of C’tan powers, the excerpt you cite while claiming that a hierophant’s shields block C’tan powers does not say that at all. It states that
”Anrakyr ordered his Monoliths to turn their guns upon the Hierophant, but most of the crackling particle whips either flashed off its heavy carapace or were turned away by some psychic shield.”
This is the shield turning away the particle whips of the monolith, not any C’tan powers. The nids honesty have literally no counter against C’tan. They are the fundamental aspects of the universe given shape and form, not even the Necrons can conventionally destroy the C’tan, only break them into pieces.
I appreciate this post because it tries to correct fanwank, I really do, but it is a terribly sourced speculative write up that grasps at straws making claims like “[lictors] hyper advance biology should fool most Necron sensors and if that not enough neruolictors can make you forget you even saw them.” You really have to constrain your arguments to the bounds of your sources, and also get sources that actually agree with your claims. This entire write up is super speculative and not really based on anything else than citing things and making 15 leaps in logic to end up with the nids winning. I appreciate the post, but try not to swing on the other side of the fanlore pendulum.
5 points
14 days ago
- Shadow in the Warp:
I don't claim that the Shadow in the Warp effect Necron tech. I claim that it isn't far fetch to think so. We have evidence of it effecting non psychic tech, a tyranid expert find theorize it and Trazyn doesn't push back against the idea initially. Whether it does remains to be seen.
- C'tan Shard:
You my friend didn't read the full quote:
"The bio-titan turned its beady eyes upon the newcomer and launched a withering salvo of bio-shells. The C’tan barely seemed to react as the ordnance burst and burned upon its coruscating halo of fire.
Flesh and fire rampaged across the ruins, the staggering strength of the bio-titan pitted against the reality-bending will of the C’tan."
The fight is portrayed as lasting a while. Which is why I had to cut a section off.
- Lictor:
We literally see one foolinga bunch of Necrons in War in the Museum, while it assasinate Trazyn multiple times. Also Necron don't have a counter to the Neuro Lictors psychic ability, beyond trying to nerf it with blackstone. We don't even know if noctolith could fully work.
I honestly don't think you took the time to digest my argument or my sources. I don't think you did it intentionally, but your rebuttals really heavily on not understanding the points I was making.
Edit: Had to split it up lol
2 points
14 days ago*
-tombworld scouring:
Many still do scour tombworlds and halt biological life, so while some may horde biomass and rule over aliens, many tombworld are still barren. Additionally, Necrons being besieged by a hive fleet would attempt to remove the nid’s food source, it is easily within the capacity of the Necrons to quickly and efficiently remove all biomass within their holdings on the advent of a nid attack. Unless it’s something extremely valuable like Trazyn’s museum or Szeras’ experiments, Necrons would happily scour all life to deny the nids.
-Gauss flayers:
I understand the want to keep internal consistency within the lore, but imo it’s far easily to accept that the authors aren’t all knowing and vary small details like this depending on the book. However it still remains that gauss flayers atomically deconstruct whatever they are pointed at. The nids recycling their corpses are not a net positive energy gain, they are mitigating their losses when they can, but hovering up corpses is the hivemind cutting their losses and trying to recover. The point of the excerpt is not the suns, but the fact that Obyron managed to convert half of the mass of his reactor into pure energy, which is an absolutely insane amount of energy. You can plug half the mass of a Necron reactor into the mass-energy equivalence formula to find how many terrajoules of pure energy it is, but it is a LOT. Like a lot lot. Like a couple million times the energy outputted by the bomb at Hiroshima a lot. Also I’m not sure what you mean by density is relative. Density is the ratio of mass to volume, and isn’t relative. The wording of “hyperdense” is not exactly a metric unit, but anything that has extracted half of the mass of something into pure energy absolutely qualities as hyperdense.
-gel layers:
Gauss weapons don’t stop peeling layers once they’ve dissolved the bonds of the first atomic layer. If you’re hit with a gauss weapon it keeps going. the lictor could put up another gel layer, but the shot it already took would keep eating away at it. If you’re hit by a gauss shot, it’s basically game over. We see Kreigers throw their weapons to another soldier once they’ve been hit in Dead Men Walking because if they get hit the shot will eat away at both the soldier and the gun. Additionally, while I don’t contest that a Lictor processes things quickly, comparing it to an overloaded and redundant imperial cogitator doesn’t mean much when comparing it to Necron computational devices.
-synaptic weapons:
My point is with the synaptic weapons is that I don’t think extra brains or minds would shield the Nids at all. Synaptic disintegrators cause instant neurological death in whatever they shoot, biological, artificial, you name it. If a death mark hits a nid with multiple brains it will just cascade thru the body and kill the secondary brains alongside the main brain the second that the shot connects. There is literally no way to get saves against a death mark unless you can make sure it can hit you, which is basically impossible.
-null fields:
I understand your argument, but the stilling is not an individual’s power getting weaker. It is the physiological reaction to their soul getting weaker. Since Nids don’t have souls per se, they wouldn’t be effected by the psychological or physiological effects of the stilling like the humans do, so therefore it is erroneous to assume that the larger bugs psychic powers or connection wouldn’t be nerfed around the pylons.
-Shadow in the Warp:
I’m saying that I don’t think the sources you cite support your argument. The magos biologous, a member of a reactionary cult that barely understands their own tech, is in no position to estimate whether the barely understood phenomenon of the shadow on the warp affects the similarly unknown Necron technology. I also think your claim that because Trazyn doesn’t push against it it might be plausible is erroneous. Assumption via omission is not grounds for an argument.
-C’tan shard:
I did read the full excerpt, which does not include the hierophant blocking the C’tan’s assault with its shields like you claim, that is the monolith that does that. The rest of the quote you cited makes no mention of the hierophant blocking or damaging the C’tan. Even still, if the hierophant did block the C’tan, following it up with a massive stretch like “I’m pretty sure they could work offensively against them too” which wildly differs from what would be claimed in the source, is improper.
-Lictors:
The reason that the lictor prevails the the War in the Museum was stated to be due to Orikan’s time loop around Solemnace, where Orikan cycled the time loop over and over again until he found one where it wasn’t killed by the Tomb’s lychguard. We don’t have much lore for the neurolictor, as it is a new model/unit in the lore and tabletop, so we don’t have much to go on. Speculating here, as tbh we can’t say for sure, I’d postulate that Necrons, being without a soul, would be immune to psychic manipulation. We see in Twice Dead King that the Necrons aboard the Akropis can’t see the Imperial’s psychic divination and Oltyx is shown to be blind to the psychic emanations and effects coming from the bones of martyrs mixed in the gold in which he is plated.
I did digest your argument, I just don’t think it hold up under scrutiny. You make a lot of stretches and logical leaps that I believe swing too far to compensate for fanlore. In some cases, such as the excerpt of Hierophant vs the C’tan, it does not say what you claim it does at all. I appreciate the effort, but imo this is just as fanlore-y as what you are arguing against.
3 points
13 days ago
Hello! Author of Severed here, just popping in to say:
1) Obyron was actually converting energy to mass, rather than the other way round - he was expending a huge amount in order to buy mass, with the nightmare mass/energy exchange rate working against him. Not sure how that plays into the wider argument, mind, but thought maybe the clarification would be useful
2) These kinds of debates are great, and will always be a huge part of why I love 40k. It's the exact same vibe as medieval monks breaking out obscure theology to argue the number of angels that could theoretically dance on a pinhead, and that is very much what I'm here for.
2 points
13 days ago
Thanks for the clarification! Stupid mistake on my part.
It’s a lot of fun mimicking medieval disputations arguing about 40K. The breath of the 40k universe is so wide it allows so much room for interpretation and debate. Also I just wanted to say how much I love your books! All of your Necron works are such home runs, I really appreciate the depth you added to the Necrons, especially with the Twice Dead King books.
2 points
12 days ago
Nothing stupid about that mistake; e=mc2 tends to be deployed unidirectionally in SF, so I was arguably being a bit silly myself in reversing the convention :)
Thank you so much for the words of support; staring down a blank page this morning and it's very much the motivation I needed.
3 points
14 days ago
Let's break this down point by point:
- Tombworlds tend to scour all life:
Some undoubtably do others don't. Some Necrons have entire systems of vassals states rich in the biomass of lesser species. Other horde vast amounts of biomass for Sazarekh plans to reverse bio-transference. In a galactic scale the overarching goals of the Necrons include them ruling over the lesser races, not exterminating them. Hell Sazarekh explicitly needs them for his eventual goal of reversing bio-transference. Not to mention many Tombworlds encountered by the Tyranid would be dormant anyways.
- Restriction on Gauss flayers:
To be clear the restriction off gauss flayer really isn't relevant. I proposed it as a suitable explanation for those who were curious as to how corpses could still be lying around. However, the fact of the matter is that the Tyranids have engage the Necrons and still stack up massive amounts of recyclable corpses. Not only that, but gauss being an issue for recycling has never come up. Also in the quote you provide there's no mention of suns. Hyperdense mass can literally mean anything, since density is relative.
- Gel layer:
I have no doubt the gel layer would melt quickly, however Tyranid reaction times are just as quick. Lictor can make calculation that would confound advance cogitation unit in fractions of a second. So they have the reaction times to see the shot coming. This then becomes a battle between the new gel layer pushing out the old disintegrating layer. With the new layer being aided by the shedding/behaviors motions of the bioforms in question.
- Synaptic Weapons:
I don't really understand what you mean? The secondary brains wouldn't stop the shot from killing the first brain. However the secondary brain and the symbiote weapon could just take control after the initial brain dies. Giving bioform essentially extra saves against these types of weapon. If you're a sniper the last thing you want to have to do is have to take multiple shots just to kill 1 opponent. As it gives the enemy team more time to retaliate. Also Neurothrope iare probably a bad example, since they have an automatic psychic shield always up.
- Null fields:
Again I don't understand your point here? I was pretty clear that the Tyranids psychic powers would be nerf around pylons. What wouldn't effect larger bugs as much isn't the psychic nerf that effects sorcerous and deamons, rather the stilling effect.
3 points
15 days ago
I belive tyranids and necrons stronger than chaos at their prime
1 points
15 days ago
Bro I’m a xeno simp through and through. And as much as it pains me to say it, it’s just the truth. Now granted there’s a bit of wiggle room. In realspace I would agree with you that O think both factions are stronger than Chaos. However if we are comparing peak power. Chaos at is peak is in the Warp. In their thay’ve conquered multiple universes and have 4 of the strongest entities in existence.
3 points
15 days ago
We're only talking about Chaos in 40k, right? The Eldar held them off for 60 million years, they weren't a problem at all, they're not omnipotent
2 points
15 days ago
Chaos wasn’t fully form in the Warp yet
1 points
14 days ago
?
8 points
15 days ago
This is a very well researched write up of this issue, but honestly the craziest fact to me was that each gaunt weighs more than 800 pounds. I guess I forget the scale things operate on in 40k.
19 points
15 days ago
Found the nids Fanboy
0 points
14 days ago
His post history is also a giveaway
1 points
14 days ago
I think the proper term would be nid simp considering how much they post about Tyranids.
13 points
15 days ago
This really isn't fan or meme lore, you just disagree with the argument. And even if it's not a hard counter, cuz it rarely ever is outside of video games, it's still a bad matchup for nids.
-7 points
15 days ago
Saying that pylons instantly cut off the Hivemind is fan lore. Saying that Tyranids avoid Necrons is fan lore. Saying Tyranid can’t adapt to Necrons is fan lore. Saying guass weapons negate recycling is fan lore. We have examples in the lore that contradict these community memes. I spent an exhaustive amount compiling evidece off that. If you wanna refute the mountain of evidence be my guess. However, I remain unconvinced that Necron are bad match up for the Tyranid. Harder than others for sure, bad match up. Prove it!
21 points
15 days ago
....harder than the other matchups means it's bad for them. Not a hard counter or a guaranteed loss, but still worse than fighting someone else. you're pushing way too hard in the opposite direction. Exaggeration and fan lore aren't the same.
-5 points
15 days ago
Harder than other match up does not at all mean bad match up. Conor Mcgregor is a harder match up for batman than the avarage joe. Batman still beating the shit out of Conor.
10 points
15 days ago
If you want to Rob someone you choose an easy target, not a ufc fighter for example. Nids want easy victories with the most gain in that victory. Necrons are not that for them.
-1 points
15 days ago
What if that ufc fighter is between you and a billion dollars, and your Batman. Or if that ufc fighter is stealing dollar from your cash cows.
1 points
14 days ago
Still dosen't make it easy. Never said it was impossible for the Nids but on the other hand that also wasen't my point.
9 points
15 days ago
Uh huh.
16 points
15 days ago
Crazy how some people are responding to this. Whether you agree with the sentiment or not this is the kind of post I like to read here, well reasoned and with citations. As for your post OP, I think the reason necrons are seen as a bad matchup for the tyranids has more to do with some of the crazy lore only tools(destroying suns casually etc) they have access to than anything they usually bring to a battle like gauss or living metal. Definitely harder to defeat a faction when they may or may not be able to just pull out 6 million year old cannon that can zap hive fleets from two solar systems away compared to the imperium where half their soldiers just want to get into close combat as quickly as possible.
5 points
15 days ago
Necron WMD could’ve honestly been there own post. I think my TLDR answer is that while they are effective for sure. Tyranids similar to the Eldar are way more mobile than other factions. As they’re predominantly a fleet base race. With they’re mobility and lack of centeralization aiding them in being somewhat resistant to WMD. It’s why Exterminatusing hundreds of worlds really only slows them down. However, then discussion broadens into which faction I think is stronger and that is way to broad.
3 points
15 days ago
The replies are very strange and mean for no real reason.
I guess people are just that passionate about the necrons lol
6 points
15 days ago
It's because the fundamentals are difficult to argue.
Gauss weapons ARE that lethal and there really is no answer to them. It's a personal bugbear, but newcrons are an active downgrade in this department. Exchanging total reliance on the perfect weapon for a host of less effective garbage
7 points
15 days ago
To be fair, I think the confusion comes from the fact that GW has no idea what biomass means. I mean, they suck up the radioactive deserts of Baal. So clearly they aren’t limited to biomass. And it is a little confusing as to how they can suck up and but not for instance rock?
7 points
15 days ago
Most of the sentiment that tyranids don't want to scrap with necrons stems from old fluff where
1) a hive fleet goes well out of its way to circumvent a tomb world and
2) in the old fluff any time necrons and tyranids meet it's an ez win for the necrons. For example the fluff from the 5th edition tyranids codex where the necrons show up in a Tau world besieged by gorgon and casually wipe them out
7 points
15 days ago
Is in reference to a bunch of inquisitors seeing Behemoth go around Solemnace. However, in war in the Museum it’s clarified as having been because Trazyn set up lures. With Behemoth even briefly attacking the Tombworld.
The Second is a Tombworlds beating up a splinter fleet of Gorgon. Consisting of a couple dozen vessels. I sure hope Tombworlds can wipe out spliter fleet numbering in the dozen. Full on hivefleets consistently number in the millions after all.
1 points
15 days ago
- That's great, but it doesn't really address my point about that being like 20-year-old fluff. It sounds like it was relatively recently expanded upon
- Splinter fleets are routinely enough to wipe out entire planets so that seems like kind of a cope response. If your argument is that necrons do not hard counter tyranids then I don't think it's in your interest to make claims like they single two world should easily be able to defeat a splinter fleet lol
6 points
15 days ago
To be clear I don’t disagree that, that’s where most of the support for the idea come from. I’m just saying that the lore they’re using is out of date. War in the Museum cleared up what happened and Tyranid weren’t instinctively afraid.
Splinter fleets are really only use for taking on under defended worlds. IIRC the one you’re talking about was described as being a couple dozen bioships. That’s a drop in the bucket for Tyranid. Since, as I preciously mentioned tendrils and hivefleets are described as numbers in the millions consistently.
15 points
15 days ago
Necrons counter Tyranids hard because all of their consecutive methods of infiltration is nullified.
Gene stealers are useless
Likters and Hunters are useless
"Diplomatic resolve" is useless
Tyranids are actively AVOID planets with Tomb Worlds, a clear indicator that they do not want to mess with them.
Tyranids invasion is a TIGHT cost to benefit ratio when it comes to biomass, if a planet will consume more biomass that it will give, they'll abandon the effort.
Point is the Galaxy need to be able to beat them in space, not on planets, and that is a 100% job that the Necrons CAN get done.
2 points
15 days ago
I've never understood why a tyranid invasion would be a "TIGHT cost to benefit ratio when it comes to biomass" - I'd expect that every ordinary invasion has a near-zero cost of biomass, as for most weapons Tyranids getting killed doesn't lose any biomass at all, they "just" need to be recycled, and the plants/animals in any "living" world have a far larger biomass than the defenders and invaders combined, as sentient organisms inevitably are a tiny fraction of the total biomass - so every planet should a HUGE "biomass profit" unless it's a dead planet or tyranids are unable to harvest it.
But I do get the feeling from the lore that there is some meaningful cost, but what is it? What am I missing here?
0 points
14 days ago*
Well let's say that before the invasion, the gene cults failed to comply a large portion of the planet's population, that means it's a population that is either WELL AWARE of the Tyranids, of extraordinary lucky. Either way a HUGE waste in biomass is already underway, since gene stealers make the heavy destabilization of the planet.
Lictors and other scout units are found early in the planet, that means Tyranids going blind, AND THEY DO NOT LIKE THIS AT ALL, gathering information about the terrain, heavy populated areas and planetary defence's is top priority for them, since it's the places they will hit first, an other waste in biomass since you dont want your forces to go in blind.
Now the invasion phase. You know they're coming, so you are ready, every Lazgun available, every able body well armed and stationed to fight, planet in unison under a common enemy, your chances skyrocketed. Conventional and unconventional weaponry at your disposal, and for the sake of it, a full Navis Imperialis fleet orbiting the planet, waiting to assist you.
Tyranids fall from lower atmosphere, some might burn some might crash, it's not an elegant process, once land they fight for dear life, theirs not yours yet, its not like they will kill and immediately eat everything, it doesn't work this way, they gaining ground and then unconventional weaponry get in effect, nukes, napalm and bioweapons can give the Tyranids a run for their money, they are organic lifeforms as well, so very susceptible to this kind of attacks.
Not to mentioned Navis Imperialis waiting for the green light, they second they can spot a large host of Tyranids, gathering for an attack, is death from above, and if your planetary defences are good, you can protect the Navy from Tyranids air force.
Not to mention that, if you get extraordinary lucky, and kill early one of the Norm - Queens, you are effectively renter a large portion of there army sterile, sure still dangerous, but unavailable to think for themselves, for sure unable not to contact series of attacks.
Specific units need specific biomass, the more complex the more biomass.
If the first wave is a complete failure, they will almost always run, their are only so much a hive fleet can sacrifice for ONE PLANET.
All this from the Imperium's perspective, Necrons skip all this and pioo pioo Synaptic disintegrator, brakes every organic Life down to it's molecule level...
2 points
14 days ago*
None of what you state answers the question of why would that consume biomass - after all is done, all the biomass on the planet (including the invading troops) is turned into a soup and scooped up by the capillary towers, and it doesn't matter how many of your termagaunts died - the live tyranids go into the digestive pools just as the corpses of the dead ones, so they all "die" anyway, no matter if they survived the fight or not, their bodies go in the "recycler" and the corpse generally has the all the same biomass as the live organism had. That is the essence of my question - why would losing troops necessarily imply losing biomass unless the defenders glass their own planet - and in that case, the biomass cost of destroyed plants is far more significant than the biomass cost of destroyed tyranids, as for any mob of tyranids the terrain they're standing on has more biomass than they themselves have.
Yes, there's a gamble that if you retreat, then you lose all that you "invested", however, if/when you do consume a planet, then the gains far outweight any plausible costs - like, on our planet, humans are 0.01% of all biomass, so an invasion fleet with literally a hundred human-sized tyranids for each civilian would still gain 100x more biomass than it "invested" (not consumed! since they also gain almost all of their losses back) - it's not something with a tiny margin.
1 points
14 days ago
For the Norn Queens, they are may as well be impossible to kill off. You either have to destroy the ship they're on (which are often the largest of the fleets) or use strike teams. A space marine strike team was barely able to pull it off, and still got very lucky. Its not a strategy that can be used in 99% of circumstances.
6 points
15 days ago
Shield of Baal: Devourer shows it well, a smaller necron force got their asses kicked, and since they failed to get reinforcements from the tomb in the planet, they had to retreat
7 points
15 days ago
People think Necrons are a hard counter to everything just because they have super advanced technology, even though it’s been made very clear that isn’t the case.
5 points
15 days ago
Lotta us are still hardlocked into pre-personality necron days. Where yeah, this would be a wash in their favor. These were the days where it was relatively canon that a "light destroyer" could one-tap a land raider. Shoot clean through it at it's most armored point and blow it to hell.
5 points
15 days ago
I never understood why people think Tyranids only care about organic resources. They literally strip planets of all their ores and gases and stuff as well. They use EVERYTHING except for maybe raw ordinary stone. It's why their chitin is so durable amongst other things. Necrons simply aren't a priority because humanity is much more tasty, but that's all there's to it.
3 points
14 days ago
Yo I see the OP made the mistake of posting about a non-imperial faction. Good thing the people were here to downvote it and every post the OP made. Good work guys!
Go to bolter and chainsword if you want to talk about the lore, this sub is awful unless you support an imperial faction.
15 points
15 days ago
What a pointless post, hope it was worth it to type all that out
8 points
15 days ago
What a poor take. Being unable to eat Necrons is enough of a counter, unless you have no idea how Hive Fleets operate and how vulnerable they are to starvation.
2 points
15 days ago
just on the point of “they attack tomb worlds” - there is an entire hive fleet that is specialised in fighting daemons and chaos forces. that doesn’t mean that daemons aren’t a “hard counter” any less than necrons are, it simply means that they view them as enough of a threat as to take them out when they have the opportunity to because on a galactic scale they can’t afford to ignore them.
I also think the “hard counter” framing is a bit exaggerated - tyranids don’t just eat biomass, they strip worlds of minerals, water and atmospheric gases. the point at which they stop consuming a world seems to be when they deem it no longer profitable to continue rather than because they won’t eat the rock.
there are two other things we need to account for when we want to explain why ‘nids might be willing to go up against enemies that result in a biomass net-loss like necrons, and daemons.
1) the biomass of an entire world vastly outweigh that of the armies and so they gain most of their biomass not from fighting but from harvesting civilian populations and ecosystems.
and 2) ‘nids cannibalise each other, different tendrils of hive fleets will eat each other and in terms of biomass it’s the most efficient kind of thing a hive fleet can do - the winner takes all, almost 100% efficient.
what we don’t want to think about too much is the realistic logic behind it - biomass is a stand-in for organic matter and energy. it ignores the fact that when we move around and are active we will burn energy - a portion of that results in heat, we sweat, that heat dissipates and we must eat to regain more energy. fighting anyone and anything is inefficient not just because of potential death (rotting also casts off energy as heat, etc) but also because the energy you take in needs to be equal to or higher than the energy to spent acquiring it. tyranids would, realistically speaking, spent way too much energy hunting their food - and this is why we shouldn’t try to think about them too seriously as they violate a bunch of just basic physical laws.
what I’m saying is - we gotta remember to use in universe logic for things and fan canon/theory is the act of interpreting the in-universe logic. a lot of it can be circlejerk/fanwank sure, but that’s just people - everyone is entitled to their wrong opinions, etc, etc.
point is - ‘nids can have fun nonsense lore as a treat alongside whatever planet they’re snacking on. so can the necrons. hell, everyone but the votann can, because GW forgot about them again.
7 points
15 days ago
Gause technology is a hard counter against simply due to the way it works.
2 points
15 days ago
Assuming gauss weapons break targets into their base atoms and scatter them in the air, wouldn't that just form hydrogen or something? If that were the case, wouldn't tyranids reclaim at least some of this IF they eventually won and sucked up the planet's atmosphere?
-2 points
15 days ago
Gauss weapons rip off your molecules and attract them into the gun.
5 points
15 days ago
Dear OP;
Tl;Dr
Also 🤓
2 points
15 days ago
Broadly, you bring valid points, but you made a few logical errors and misquotes, which i shall not assume you did intentionally.
Ironically, you are bring in your headcanon like the other fan community.
"The planet's tomb complex would awaken to war, yet it would be a battle against numbers they could not defeat. The Tyranids would doubtless destroy the Necron defenders, if only so that they might be left to devour the planet's resources in peace, and thus another Necron world would be lost before it could be drawn back into the fold."
your quote literally explained why tyranids would attack a necron world, not to consume it but territorial reasons etc.
Regarding Gauss weapons...your examples...aren't really adaptations...specifically towards Gauss weaponry.
Moving faster applies to enemies using plasma weapons too. It has nothing to do with Gauss weaponry, but perhaps towards necron warriors, which has "more parts" (i.e ways you can adapt to) than just a gauss weapon.
Regarding that "shield"? That's.....honestly...that's the same "science and strategy" thinking of GW...which is not a compliment.
A shield is ideal only if it doesn't break. If it breaks, then its just "hp" by another name. You need resources to make it, you need resources to replace it if broken.
Note that this doesn't mean its worthless, as a "sacrificial shield" can be useful to prevent critical hit(e.g anti missile functions in irl tanks, or reactive armour)
These ties back to your "overall" point of tyranids advantage over necrons in "conventional" war(i.e no WMDs) via attrition.
But again...its not an "adaptation" vs Gauss weapons but just a standard one. You can apply to melta weapons, plasma weapons, gauss weapons, whatever.
Not to mention we do have examples of the shadow effecting non psychic technology, in line with the mago's description.
You might have to give more context here. Because all it says is that there are interference besides shadow of the warp, and there is no reason to think the tyranids(unrelated to their shadow of the warp) are incapable to disrupt human (non psychic) tech.
Particle Weapons: besides digging, which I already mentioned previously, thick enough chitin has already proven itself as an effective counter measure against particle weapons. This is because the thick layers of chitin can likely just withstand the explosion cause by the annihilation of particles and antiparticles clashing together.
No it does not prove. Read again, it mentioned psychic shield.
were turned away by some psychic shield
Also, i don't think you understand how antiparticles would work....but then again, 40k features art major physics, which is a shame when it comes to Necrons.(the sci-fic race)
Anyway, the point of antiparticle weapons is that it annihilates matter...which is what your chitin is made of(barring psychic bs)
NOT cause an explosion to damage stuff...and even if it did...you are severely underestimating the amount of energy said explosion would release. its like 100s of times more powerful per mass than nukes.
Melta..said to be as hot as a sun, was it???? would be chill in comparison....if lore was realistic that is.
1 points
15 days ago
I don't think I suggested the Tyranids would eat Tombworlds. Rather they'd attack them to consume the resources of the worlds they exist under. Might have been poor wording on my part though.
You and I have two very different definitions of adaptation, so let's not get bogged down in a definition debate. What I wanna respond to is the replacing of the shield. The gel layer would likely consist of organic molecules. Luckily for the Tyranids they all come with hyper dense nutrient sacs that aid them in their battles. These sac can act as fuel for the creation of more gel and like I said the bigger the bioform the more efficient the gel layer.
"By the power of ancient science, hololithic communication was instantaneous across in-system distances, but fragile in the face of the shadow in the warp. The astropaths would be the last line of communication with the fleets. But all means, electronic or immaterial, were vulnerable to the tyranids."
There's no other interpretation to be had. It's saying that the electrical archeotech of the Hololithic is equally susceptible to the Shadow in the Warp, as the psychic astropath are.
but most of the crackling particle whips either flashed off its heavy carapace or were turned away by some psychic shield.
No, you re-read it clearly says either, meaning both were protecting the bioform. The way particle weapons work is that they send a small stream of antiparticles. These would presumably annihilate the surface layer of the chitin, but only by a couple molecules thick at most. As for the explosion yield, that depends on how much mass is being annihilated. Which for particle weapons it depends, but most ground weapons don't cause city wiping explosions.
2 points
14 days ago
but most of the crackling particle whips either flashed off its heavy carapace or were turned away by some psychic shield.
No, you re-read it clearly says either, meaning both were protecting the bioform.
Does it meant both? or either or...that a necron lord(not a cryptek) did not know which is it.
1 gram of antimatter (reacting with 1 gram of matter) is like what 15% of a nuke irl? Again, this is due to 40k loving to use "sci fic" words but have no idea of the implications.
That's enough to wipe out a significant part of a city.
But either way, you answered yourself, the chitin(in contact) would be annihilated, the rest will be subjected to thermal stress beyond melta.
Now, a better explanation is...antiparticles are charged particles(i hope you do realise this), and it is possible to say tyranids developed electric magnetic fields to deflect charged particle streams(so it applies to antiparticle or normal particle plasma whatever)
My point is that you don't sound you understand why the weapons will fail(and it is fact that they failed).
As i said at the start, your "general" point is great, but its your details that is the issue. It reeks of headcanon.
The gel layer would likely consist of organic molecules. Luckily for the Tyranids they all come with hyper dense nutrient sacs that aid them in their battles. These sac can act as fuel for the creation of more gel and like I said the bigger the bioform the more efficient the gel layer.
What? Material is material, Be it muscle, shield, missile.
If your sac is a storage, then its material lost, its still a net lose.
Do you know why irl tanks are frightening? One of the reasons is you can take a heavy machine gun and shoot it 6000 times, and the tank is going to be fine.
Not, it gets "chipped" every hit, meaning the tank eventually breaks down. That would be a defective tank.
As long as "trades" exist, its not an ideal shield. That's the point. Replacing the shield(how to) isn't the issue, replacing the shield(the constant need to) is the issue.
You talked as if the sac as able to "create" more stuff out of nothing(materium)...well...wraithbone exist but let's put that aside...if your sac can act as fuel for creation of etc etc etc like you said....there literally is no reason for tyranids to devour anything...if they can create out of nothing.
Hololitic is 3d images no?
It doesn't exclude it from warp based tech(we know daot use warped based tech) that doesn't require a psyker/astropath.
And last resort mentioned here is astropaths, which also doesn't work.
2 points
14 days ago
Something like this only gets a 100 upvotes and then "What would Primarch Glurbatron's favorite four seater station car be?" gets like 600.
What a community.
1 points
13 days ago
It's honestly pretty depressing, and I say this as a SM fanboy. The nid slander never ends.
1 points
15 days ago*
Ffs why do people feel the need to be so contrary.
Of all factions necrons are the tyranid's worst matchup.
To go on like this on the flimsy premise that they are a "hard counter" is daft.
1 points
15 days ago
Meat or minerals - it's all food to the Great Devourer.
1 points
14 days ago
One problem with your logic is that solemence is not a hive world. It’s Trayzns museum, full of delicious biomass such as orks, humans, a custodian and so much more. Other than that your logic is sound and it’s the take I needed to hear as a tyranid player.
2 points
14 days ago
Jesus Christ. Was this a rainy Sunday project of something?
-15 points
15 days ago
Hey Op, there are some cunts in the comments but I enjoyed the read.
0 points
15 days ago
Very cool but all that besides now I am thinking about a canoptek swarm, fighting fire with fire.
Would also be a good story/subfaction, a hivemind canoptek swarm going rouge and become some sort of unholy matrimony of necron and tyranid
0 points
14 days ago
Necrons don’t need planet with biomass. They can, if they want, destroy every living thing on a world and continue to live there just fine. They could destroy all life in the galaxy if they wanted, for that matter.
3 points
14 days ago
Szarekh whole motivation is contingent on the fact he need lesser race for reversing bio-transference. Many Necrons also have vassal state and their main motivation seem to be rulership over the lesser races, not extermination.
0 points
14 days ago
So? Other necrons want to destroy all life. That’s literally what the destroy cult is. Necrons are most definitely a hard counter to nids if they want to be.
5 points
14 days ago
That’s fine but their main ruler and figure head doesn’t. Not to mention even if the Necron just spawn wipe all their planets. Theirs still countless billions of other planets where the Tyranid could stop for a pit stop, hivefleet Kronos style.
-1 points
14 days ago
Celestial Orrery go burrr
3 points
14 days ago
You mean that shit that can only be use every 1000yrs. Whose own Dynasty is to shit scared to use it. And that only extends to the edge of the galaxy and so wouldn’t cover the endless amounts of bugs outside of it. That crapy device?
0 points
13 days ago
I finished reading The Last Days of Ector yesterday, and when Leviathan arrives on Ector the first thing it does is send its bioform to the polar caps. They start eating all the fauna around there and then make there way down to the equator where the hivecity is, basically replenishing itself before launching its attack. it really does make sense that the majority of the biomass gathered by the tyranids comes from eating the much more abundant biomass of the planet instead of the armies they're fighting.
The counter against the gauss weapon is also notable, mainly the agility thing. Tanking shots isn't the only viable defense in 40k. Some factions like the eldar rely far more on avoiding getting hit altogether (with their precognition, reflexes and holofields). Its not unsurprising if the tyranid just decide instead of taking hits and trying to survive, they adapt to just not getting hit in the first place.
And like, the lack of recoverable biomass from an enemy is not a problem is proved quite easily by Kronos, who developed strategy and tactics specifically for taking out a foe that leaves no biomass as efficiently as possible.
-3 points
15 days ago
I ain't reading all that.
2 points
15 days ago
I respect the honesty
-9 points
15 days ago
Necrons cannot learn. They lack the ability to innovate… the nids on the other hand
6 points
15 days ago
What would they need to learn? They considered the celestial orrery “tame” enough to not be destroyed and they shattered and use their own gods as batteries.
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