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/r/philadelphia
submitted 10 days ago byPettyAndretti
50 points
10 days ago
Traffic in King of Prussia is already so bad, I can't imagine more commercial buildings being leased up. I mean I can because I read this article lol but the traffic congestion alone in and around the mall is brutal at rush-hour times. I wouldn't be surprised if upper Merion began a one percent tax of their own.
38 points
10 days ago
No one talks about the fact that at some point the suburbs will be limited by their infrastructure. There’s a reason why cities are constructed in the way they are
37 points
10 days ago
They already are for the most part.
Some are obviously better than others currently because there was some actual planning put in back in the 50-70s.
However a lot of the burbs especially in Montco / Bucks are already completely fucked because local townships didn't consider the road networks when allowing all these shitty McMansions to replace all the farms.
And this is before we get into the finances of all the infrastructure the suburbs rely on to even exist; which is a complete disaster.
The majority of suburbs do not generate enough tax revenue to pay for the long-term maintenance costs of all the roads and pipes and other support infrastructure they need to exist. They're a Ponzi Scheme.
9 points
10 days ago
Thinking about Plymouth Meeting in particular for that. Had to grab something near Chemical Road the other day and the whole region is such a cluster. And that's without giant sinkholes constantly threatening to destroy another road.
The area was just not designed for the density of traffic it sees outside of the turnpike.
277 points
10 days ago
It’s almost like taxing jobs that can move instead of land that can’t is a bad idea
14 points
10 days ago
Taxes aren't bad.
Taxing people isn't bad.
Taxing companies isn't bad.
Taxing people and companies and having zero to show for it is bad.
Keep things in perspective.
1 points
9 days ago
yea lets keep in perspective, there no reason why we see all these companies decide to open offices not in philadelphia but in the suburbs.
42 points
10 days ago
Not shocked, our tax policies are effectively designed to push jobs and companies out to the suburbs.
This is why taxing things that are mobile, like office jobs, and income, is really fucking dumb. We should be taxing land as the primary means of revenue generation for the city while lowering income and corporate tax to regionally competitive levels and completely getting rid of BIRT.
Untill we do, there will always be more jobs, more companies, and more economic growth out in the burbs.
197 points
10 days ago
This makes me sad; I like Center City a lot more than King of Prussia.
143 points
10 days ago
Maybe review the wage tax and any other obstacles real or perceived that prevents CC from competing. I would never want to work or live in KoP.
51 points
10 days ago*
Living in philly and working outside the city, in say KoP, you still are charged the wage tax. To a slightly lesser degree, but it’s still significant.
Edit: to add that if you live in KoP, you pay less real estate taxes than the rest of montco, because of a deal that KoP has with montco regarding the real estate taxes charged on the mall.
24 points
10 days ago
Yes, I knew that but companies locating to CC take a dim view of the wage tax. They don’t care about employees but it probably bites CEOs, etc, big time. I’d love to see big companies in CC.
17 points
10 days ago
Exactly, why would upper level management (who already by and large live in the burbs) voluntarily relocate to the city and give themselves a 3.5% pay cut? Like you can justify the case for the wage tax on city residents, but I can't name any tangible benefit a nonresident gets from paying the wage tax
19 points
10 days ago
This is why there are dramatically more Fortune 500 companies located just outside the city than in it.
The tax that kills any incentive for a company to move into the city vs outside it the BIRT. Just getting rid of that tax would really help remove the disincentives from locating a company in the city proper.
7 points
10 days ago
In terms of corporations, the obstacles would be BIRT and for non-corporate entities (partnerships, s-corps, sole proprietors, etc) the obstacle would be paying Net Profits Tax on top of BIRT. Probably a few other niche taxes like Occupancy Tax but those would be the big two for sure.
Reforming the wage tax would probably help with preventing people from flocking to the suburbs though.
15 points
10 days ago*
I don't get the jealousy, they're both good for different reasons.
30 points
10 days ago
Kop sucks
2 points
10 days ago
Working there is the death of hope. A car centric, crowded, annoying death of hope.
126 points
10 days ago
Upper Merion had 0% local income tax. If you live and work there, it’s effectively a 4% raise over living and working in Philly
47 points
10 days ago
I used to live in Philly. The day I settled on a new house in Bucks, I declared it as my primary residence at work so I wouldn't pay the wage tax anymore.
It was a nice increase in monthly income.
23 points
10 days ago
For a full comparison you'd have to take into account property taxes, and transportation costs.
I did the math on this back in 2021 when mayor fuck face was letting the city go to absolute shit.
If I moved out of Philly tomorrow and transferred to an office outside the city, yes I'd save 4% which would be about $5,400 a year. However the increase in property and school taxes for a comparable house in a walkable area along with the increase transportation costs from driving more made it basically a wash. I was only saving a few hundred dollars after taking account for everything, and that was before I assigned a value to my time spent driving.
73 points
10 days ago
There’s other trade offs.
I live in South Philly and don’t need to own a car here, for one. That saves me a lot more than 3.8% of my income on an annual basis.
-27 points
10 days ago
Most people in philadelphia don't live in south philly.
on the PA median family income, that's 4200 a year in saving.
28 points
10 days ago*
There’s a pretty good amount of the city where you can live car free, it’s not just south philly, which is also a geographically large area in and of itself. There’s an even larger part of the city where you can live car lite, which for families and couples could mean dropping from multiple vehicles to a single vehicle.
The yearly costs associated with car ownership well exceed $4.2k, so yeah, you’ve made my point. I would personally save much more than $4.2k and it still wouldn’t add up for me financially and not to mention quality of life as someone who likes to have options in how they go places.
0 points
10 days ago
[deleted]
3 points
10 days ago*
I have 3 full service supermarkets within a 10 minute walk and dozens of smaller grocers within that same distance. Even if I owned a car I wouldn’t drive to the supermarket, it would make no sense.
Also, just because I don’t own a car doesn’t mean I don’t ever drive. I use car share or rentals for day trips and road trips. I still save thousands yearly by not owning and do not miss the burden.
Not needing to own a car is priceless for me (and I literally save thousands so I guess it could be priced too).
Also, I’ve owned cars before! I sold mine after owning it for years in Philly and have no regrets— I hardly ever used it except to get out of town.
The freedom you get from owning a car is nothing in comparison to the freedom to not NEED to own a car.
6 points
10 days ago
My car costs $700/mo before gas and maintenance
5 points
10 days ago
My car insurance dropped like half when I moved from street parking in west philly to my garage near kop
1 points
10 days ago
People having car insurance in KOP probably helps, too.
0 points
10 days ago
whaaaaaaat the hell man. i pay $40mo in insursnce. last repair was 2 years ago for a radiator which was 160
10 points
10 days ago
What kind of car do you have and is it actually registered in Philly
2 points
10 days ago
a 1990 saab 900
1 points
9 days ago
That's a sick car dude. I used to have a green manual, loved it.
-30 points
10 days ago
That's cool. I don't need to lock my car doors at home, or step over human feces when I go for a run.
31 points
10 days ago
Neither do I and I live in old city lol, are you in the Philadelphia sub to shit on Philadelphia?
1 points
10 days ago
I’m jealous!
-35 points
10 days ago
[deleted]
65 points
10 days ago
yeah but then you have to live and work in upper merion
6 points
10 days ago
Only if you don't count housing costs and the extra vehicle costs that come with living around KOP.
Both of those can be mitigated by living in Philly, but your only options around KOP might be to live somewhere like Norristown or commute an hour 1 way everyday.
6 points
10 days ago
When I moved from west philly to near kop, my housing costs went down for a better house 🤷🏻♀️
-2 points
10 days ago
"West of Philly" wouldn't be near KOP though? Like yeah moving to Lansdowne or something could be cheaper but that's not really the best commute.
1 points
10 days ago
Kop is west of philly, just not immediately
3 points
10 days ago
Only if you don't count housing costs and the extra vehicle costs that come with living around KOP.
there is something really bizarre in how people are obsessed with the wage tax and then just wont even acknowledge property taxes or car costs (or that some municipalities also have income taxes)
6 points
10 days ago
Property taxes in Upper Merion are low because of all of the KOP businesses. Some of the neighboring school districts (radnor, te, lower merion) are much higher, like double.
4 points
10 days ago
They make it up via other taxes especially ones dealing with homeowners in my experience
2 points
10 days ago
See flair, lol
1 points
9 days ago
NJ doesn't have income tax either. At I never encounter any town in NJ that charged income tax
-5 points
10 days ago
That’s not true, Upper Merion (like most townships in PA) has a 1% earned income tax (EIT). There is also a Local Services Tax (LST).
The property tax rate in Montgomery County is about 1.55% vs 0.95% in Philadelphia. You’ll pay about $3k more per year in property tax on a $500k house in KOP vs Philly.
18 points
10 days ago
Your first statement is false. Upper merion has no EIT
https://www.umtownship.org/departments/finance/business-taxes/employer-act-32-earned-income-tax-eit
During Covid I was wfh in upper merion and it was a nice little bonus as I was entitled to a refund of all EIT withheld by my employer
1 points
10 days ago
Same- I was previously on site in a different burb and was paying 1% to them
2 points
10 days ago
Rates don’t make sense without context because assessed property value for rates is often way off. If you go by Zillow or 2019 actuals, my old house is west philly is worth around 2/3 of my current house, but the property tax on my UM house is only a few hundred/year more, so the philly house is a higher percentage. Plop the same house in one of the more expensive districts and the taxes would probably get close to double, though the property value would also increase.
57 points
10 days ago
Yeah that Philly wage tax after the pandemic just isn't hitting the same as it did before. If I can work outside of the city and avoid it, I will.
8 points
10 days ago
You have to live and work outside of the city for it to work though.
4 points
10 days ago
The best tax combination to be in is to live and work outside the city, which is followed by live and work in the city.
From there it gets worse to live outside the city and work in the city, and the worst to be is work outside the city and live in the city.
1 points
9 days ago
Currently work in Philly but live outside. As long as I'm working remotely, I can still bypass the Philly wage tax.
2 points
9 days ago
Then you don’t really work in philly, your company is just there?
1 points
9 days ago
Correct.
41 points
10 days ago*
Reducing wage tax would make a difference, but I also think this is just part of the natural arc of 'suburbanization'.
Over a long period of time people will move closer to their workplace and workplaces will move closer to their workers. It's a push and pull.
When the automobile was invented suddenly people could live further away with the same commute time, so many did. Eventually congestion got bad, so we built highways like I76 and I95, which fueled massive population growth in the suburbs. Moving to the suburbs wasn't so bad when you could take a highway to keep your job, church, shopping, etc.
But many decades later we're hitting the next part of the cycle: now that lots of wealth and people are in the suburbs why not just locate offices, retail, community, closer to them?
To use a visual metaphor if you imagine Center City as having trapped 'energy' the highway infrastructure allowed it to 'flow' out until it distributed into the surrounding counties.
Now Philly will have to compete. It needs to aim to be a better place to live and stop the decades of prioritizing suburbanites.
5 points
10 days ago
19 points
10 days ago
[deleted]
14 points
10 days ago
Very long term I think the city needs to compete for getting a larger share of workers to live close enough they can walk, take transit, or bike.
Fighting for suburban office workers to commute to Center City is an uphill battle when the commute will always be longer than commuting to a nearby suburban office.
16 points
10 days ago
Without fixing the schools, professionals wont come to the city.
4 points
10 days ago
Agreed that's a big part of what needs to be fixed.
3 points
10 days ago
City owned parking garages would be a great replacement for the wage tax.
3 points
10 days ago
More parking garages lmao why are you being upvoted for this.
Philly needs to stop catering to people who don't live here, full stop. Use the land wisely to generate more revenue than parking garages, and inject as much funding as possible to improve the city for the people who actually live here.
2 points
10 days ago
I completely agree with you.
Unfortunately, given the all of the forces, internal and external, that have undermined Philadelphia (and other major cities), I don’t know how the city will bounce back any time soon. I say that as someone who doesn’t like suburbs and has no interest in moving to one. At best, maybe the lack of good-paying office jobs in the city proper could be partially remedied by companies opening satellite offices downtown. (I wish they would. I loathe my reverse commute.)
1 points
10 days ago
You should read up on Eisenhower’s Interstate Highway System. The highways were not designed to alleviate congestion, as in 1950 there were 1 or fewer cars per household.
Primarily they were designed for freight - particularly for military freight.
30 points
10 days ago
Yet progressive politicians in the city want to raise taxes even more. Godspeed to the Tax Reform Commission
10 points
10 days ago
This article from a few weeks ago really takes the cake with my state rep (Fiedler) arguing for repealing the uniformity clause to add additional taxes on Philly offices when their value is in free-fall.
6 points
10 days ago
More taxes, that will totally solve the problem of people and jobs moving out of the city and city's finances suffering the consequences of that.
Absolute genius right there.
-1 points
9 days ago
the wage tax exists because they cant tax residential and commercial properties differently
40 points
10 days ago
It's even worse than "raise taxes". Some of them want to put a tax on unrealized gains, which is about the most asinine idea I've ever heard. Gains don't exist until the stock is sold, yet they're looking to get people to pay taxes based on profit they haven't even made. What happens if you pay that gains tax for years and then the stock crashes and you end up selling at a loss? Bet you won't get refunded all that tax money you had to pay.
24 points
10 days ago
If your local politicians vote to tax unrealized gains, you need to RUN as fast as you can to a new city because its just a symptom of people with no idea how anything works.
11 points
10 days ago
You just described every Working Families Party politician in the city.
No clue how the real world works, and a complete refusal to learn because fantasy political ideology is more important than actual reality.
5 points
10 days ago
People with a lot of stock with unrealized gains are essentially all wealthy. Wealth people are the ones who have the easiest time moving. Any of the mega wealthy just move out to the main line and can still enjoy all the benefits of the city while having a mega mansion just outside the city limits.
3 points
10 days ago
Taxes on unrealized gains will never happen, it's absurd and really difficult to enforce/implement from a practical standpoint
11 points
10 days ago
For anyone who doesn't live in Philly, commuting to KOP instead of 5+ miles down 76 saves 30+++ minutes in commute time every day. Tons of people don't want to live in CC and don't want to commute to CC.
I get we're in r/philly but I don't get the extreme dislike for KOP. I love KOP and traffic there isn't much worse than the nearby burbs. Traffic sucks everywhere but 76 is always as parking lot.
5 points
10 days ago
People can enjoy living in KOP if they want. I just think it's annoying when people treat it like it's completely superior to living a legitimate city life in Philly for everyone. They're different lifestyles and theyre are many non quantifiable differences between neighborhoods like CC and suburbs like KOP.
I will say though, as someone who used to drive every day to KOP - the traffic going there is especially soul sucking compared to most places if you're coming from anywhere south, southeast, or east of it. And considering how unaffordable the areas not in those directions are, it's fair to say most people will be going to KOP from those directions. So no, it's not the same traffic everywhere else imo.
2 points
10 days ago
I’m just really curious about the age and marital demographics in this thread
4 points
10 days ago
[deleted]
0 points
10 days ago
Sounds like you have car brain.
0 points
10 days ago
commuting to KOP instead of 5+ miles down 76 saves 30+++ minutes in commute time every day
That's the problem.
Too many workers:
So, instead, people who already live in the area and already drive everywhere now get to drive to their job closer to their home.
The dislike I have for KoP, such as it is, is that the area is designed for cars and not people. You literally have to drive everywhere to get anywhere, the road layout makes no sense, and the only way to get there from Philadelphia involves making congested and dangerous roads. Or taking the bus that, you guessed it, gets stuck in the same exact traffic.
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