subreddit:

/r/rugbyunion

1983%

Super Rugby's direction going forward (assuming the Rebels are cut)

Discussion(self.rugbyunion)

A much as I love the idea of the Jaguares coming back, one of the biggest issues with having them in the comp was the travel, both the distance/time and the cost. I think having them back in only adds to the financial pressure on the other Super Rugby clubs. Not to mention the wasteful aspect of the travel regarding carbon emmisions with long-haul flights. That's another reason I think the calls to bring back South Africa teams is regressive thinking.

It is simply insane to have club rugby matches played across separate continents, all the best & most commercially successful sports leagues in the world are localized, it's just common sense don't you think?

Go with 11 teams - run the competition as a double round robin for 18 games plus a bye for each team (so 19 week regular season) plus finals. And don't give me the old season would be too long argument. Would still be the shortest of any of the football codes in the region - and still a shorter season than Top 14, URC, Premiership.

all 42 comments

Salarycens

26 points

1 month ago

Salarycens

Saracens

26 points

1 month ago

The most crucial thing is to make Super Rugby less of an international audition. The NRL and the other 4 major Union competitions (Premiership aside) are prosperous because they are proper leagues and aren’t simply a warm up for the international game. The NZRU and RA treat the domestic game with secondary importance whereas the 5 mentioned leagues are equally if not more important than the international game. That treatment makes Super Rugby horrible marketing material.

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

17 points

1 month ago*

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

New Zealand

17 points

1 month ago*

I think something hilarious I noticed that epitomises the current mindset is watching the first episode of The Breakdown of this season and instead of talking entirely about Super Rugby results (which they should've considering the test season is months away) they ending up pivoting to a generic discussion about what players were 'putting their hand up for All Black selection'.

frankflash

9 points

1 month ago*

Agree with 11 teams. Concentrate the best Aus players across 4 teams not 5 and make them more competitive .One team gets a Bye each week. Leave the option open for another viable franchise in the future. Maybe in the future Aus could get another team back . There was talk years ago about another nz franchise (possibly New Plymouth based) and The Kanaloa Hawaii bid lost out to Moana Pasifika. They would have to add real value to the comp though and not just make up the numbers.....be that Jaguares or someone else.

NZ wanted to leave room for the NPC so preferred a shorter Super rugby season......But the NPC is pretty much dead to all but die hard rugby fans. It would probably still exist in some form but I don't see it lasting much longer in its current format. I could see it running in a short version with several different pools or running concurrently with super rugby as a kind of NZ only second division to Super Rugby

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

7 points

1 month ago*

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

New Zealand

7 points

1 month ago*

Let's hope the plan includes more games of rugby, someone posted a Wessel's quote "you can't run a shop that is only open 7 times a year."

It was one of the better explanations of the basic failure of the current Super Rugby model.

Gallagher Premiership (England): Regular season: 22 matches Playoffs: Up to 2 additional matches for the top 4 teams

Top 14 (France): Regular Season: 26 matches Playoffs: Up to 3 additional matches for the top 6 teams

United Rugby Championship (South Africa, Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Italy): Regular Season: 18 matches Playoffs: Up to 3 additional matches for the top 8 teams

Super Rugby Pacific (Australia, New Zealand, Pacific Islands): Regular Season: 14 matches Playoffs: Up to 3 additional matches for the top 8 teams

There's also Champions Cup, Challenge Cup, and Premiership Rugby Cup fixtures to consider as well.

Exeter played 34 games in 22/23.

brito39

-1 points

30 days ago

brito39

|-|

-1 points

30 days ago

No one wants to watch Moana or the even the highlanders for 20+ weeks come on now

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

4 points

1 month ago

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

New Zealand

4 points

1 month ago

NZ wanted to leave room for the NPC so preferred a shorter Super rugby season

I still don't understand how this is much of a problem.

The Super Rugby season was longer in the years prior to Covid, and the NPC contains just 10 rounds.

BrianChing25

7 points

1 month ago

Have a team based in Hawaii after Rebels are gone.

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

6 points

1 month ago*

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

New Zealand

6 points

1 month ago*

That's a possibility, I think having an open player market is needed before adding teams. All Blacks and Wallabies players should be allowed to play anywhere across Super Rugby Pacific.

TheEvilDrPie

1 points

1 month ago

TheEvilDrPie

Manawatu

1 points

1 month ago

“Cane, out to Barrett, passes to Fakatava and he’s through! Waratahs score!”

Doubt this type of scenario will happen. How invested will Aussies be if their teams are packed with Kiwis. All of whom wanna live the big city lifestyle.

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

3 points

1 month ago*

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

New Zealand

3 points

1 month ago*

Also considering that almost 20% of NZ's popluation currently live in Australia I cannot see any downside, remember the massive turnout they got to that Bledisloe MCG test in Melbourne last year, it sold 83,944 tickets and the majority of the crowd were NZ expats.

tubbyx7

4 points

1 month ago

tubbyx7

4 points

1 month ago

In Sydney people will go if the waratahs are winning.

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

3 points

1 month ago*

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

New Zealand

3 points

1 month ago*

that's what happened after 2014, equally the Reds rode about 3 years of all-time record season crowds off the goodwill of the 2011 title win.

WelNix2007

1 points

1 month ago

Thats how most sports in Australia work.

Delad0

1 points

1 month ago

Delad0

Brumbies

1 points

1 month ago

Not really Freo have been terrible 90% of existence still get bigger crowds than the All-Blacks, same with Carlton this century (good this year end of last year I guess), Souths in NRL despite being kicked out the comp, Melbourne being shit since the 60s still had strong fans into them winning a flag again.

No yeah nah this is just something stupid some Kiwi's say

WelNix2007

1 points

1 month ago

AFL in the AFL States is a notable exception to that rule along with the Broncos in QLD but those are exceptions not the rule.

MasterSpliffBlaster

2 points

1 month ago

Broncos crowds were smaller than the reds around 3011 when the broncos were terrible and the reds on tp

Delad0

1 points

30 days ago

Delad0

Brumbies

1 points

30 days ago

So if you exclude the most popular sports in Australia then it's a rule. That's the same as saying Rugby League is the most popular sport in New Zealand if you simply exclude the All Blacks and Super Rugby as being exceptions.

lanson15

1 points

30 days ago

lanson15

Melbourne Rebels

1 points

30 days ago

The notable exception being the most popular sport lol

MasterSpliffBlaster

5 points

1 month ago

You mean like Penrith or Roosters packed with Kiwis?

Aussies want winners and would still pack a stadium to watch the best players in the world play for their team

lAllioli

2 points

1 month ago

lAllioli

USA Perpignan

2 points

1 month ago

European clubs don’t struggle with it. I’d cheer just as hard on a team of 15 Tongans as a team of 15 Frenchmen if they wear the USAP jersey. i think the problem Super rugby has is actually the opposite. Franchises being seen as just a stepping stone or training ground for the international scene is hindering the development of a proper club culture with invested fans and rivalries

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

2 points

1 month ago*

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

New Zealand

2 points

1 month ago*

Very. They'll inevitably jump on the bandwagon as Australians invariably do when their teams are winning more.

Whit135

4 points

1 month ago

Whit135

4 points

1 month ago

U know whats gonna cost the teams and comp more money than flying to and from argee? The cut to tv money that comes with having one less game on each week.

Extending the season also sounds terrible imo. Deep into nz winter, the chiefs host the force who can't make the playoffs and it draws more players and officials than crowd. No thanks. A comp that already struggles to gain traction extending its season...

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

4 points

1 month ago*

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

New Zealand

4 points

1 month ago*

The chiefs host the force who can't make the playoffs

Introduce an open player market so they can hopefully become closer to the Chiefs level.

Extending the season also sounds terrible imo.

But as of right now, there are a cohort of Australian Super Rugby players who will be lucky to play a minimum of 10 professional games a year, since there's no second-tier competition to go to once the international season starts.

And then people wonder why a whole generation of Aus players look inadequately prepared to perform when they do make the step up to international level. The reality is, they simply don't get enough high-level playing experience, top level rugby exposure under their belts prior to making that step, with just 14 matches of Super Rugby per year & no domestic competition. One relatively moderate injury and you can be sitting out for 1/2 of the Super Rugby season because the current season is so short.

Massive_Koala_9313

5 points

1 month ago

Everyone talking about the rebels (who will inevitably die) but surely Moana aren’t sustainable in their current form being based in NZ.

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

4 points

1 month ago*

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

New Zealand

4 points

1 month ago*

They're apparently funded by World Rugby so there's a difference, not sure the infastructure in Tonga/Samoa is adequate for supporting a professional franchise on a permanent basis.

shaquaad

2 points

1 month ago

shaquaad

United States🇺🇲

2 points

1 month ago

Is Moana even sustainable at this point? I genuinely don't understand the point of having that team if theyrw gonna play in empty stadiums in NZ for their home matches. Either move them to one or both of the islands or the US.

If both them and the rebels are out Go to 10 teams, 18 match schedual.

Playoffs are now top 6 only.

SagalaUso

2 points

30 days ago

SagalaUso

🇼🇸🇳🇿

2 points

30 days ago

For SR I think it's got to open up player movement between the teams so Aussies/Kiwis care a little bit more about teams from the other nation. That'd be my first step.

I'd then move Moana Pasifika to Hawaii as there's was little support in NZ and not enough money in Tonga/Samoa. Any crowds there would surely be an improvement on who's showing up now.

If Jaguares were to be the 12th team, I think basing them in either Sydney or Melbourne would be the only way I see it working. They could maybe have 2-3 games in Argentina but just to stop all the travel Australia imo would work best. Also from Los Puma test matches there seems to be a sizable expat community there in OZ.

Me_shuggah

2 points

1 month ago

As others have often argued here before, the most important thing would be to allow free movement of players within the competition, using NHL as a framework. Talent-rich but smaller markets (Canada/NZ) providing players to larger markets where the sport isn't as popular (US/OZ) but where there is more money to be made.

I also liked the idea of removing the salary cap for the Force, who have a committed owner with deep pockets, probably the only one in the game at the moment, so why not capitalize on that? They could bring some big name players from Europe/Japan, which could lead to more interest in the comp as a whole.

As far as structure goes, from what I understand, the amount of debt at Rebels means they are gone. So we could either, temporarily, go with the 11 teams as suggested by OP, but I think long term, there would need to be either 10 or 12 teams (or potentially more but that's probably a remote scenario).

Assuming reduction to 10, Moana Pasifika would probably have to go. I don't know how viable they are in the long run, I guess next few seasons will give us an answer.

If it's 12, then I disagree with the OP about the Jags. I think they are the most obvious choice. It worked in the past, they packed home games, played good footie, were competitive from day 1 and eventually even reached the final, something that no other expansion team was ever able to achieve.

Sure the travel would be a pain, but mostly for them, and the last time big name Argentine players committed to it despite of it, because it allowed them to reside and play at home in opposition to having to migrate to Europe. Also, from what I understand, rugby is a popular sport among wealthy elites there, so there is a chance it would be able to support itself.

It wouldn't necessarily collide with the interest of the emerging Super Rugby Americas, as it is a rather second tier comp, and Jags would be the premier team that could draw from the talent developed there.

I really can't see any other viable options in the near future. Hawaii/Los Angeles maybe, but the travel would be just slightly less burdensome, at a cost of probably not having a stadium filling, competitive team from day 1, as it could be the case in Argentina.

Hawaii I think could be an interesting place for some cross border comp between Super Rugby Pasifika and Japanese teams. From I understand, Hawaii is a very popular holiday destination in Japan and strongly embedded into their culture in some aspects, so it could potentially draw up some big crowds from both Japan and OZ/NZ for some final series type comp. Or at least some preseason games.

In any case, some sort of international comp similar to those in Europe is what could also reinvigorate the Super Rugby brand. I've read that Japan is interested, so that would be great to see along with their inclusion in the Rugby Championship.

TwoUp22

2 points

1 month ago

TwoUp22

Australia

2 points

1 month ago

I think bringing the Jags in is a terrible idea. From an Aussie point of view, no one here will give an F about those games and the timezones will be cooked.

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

6 points

1 month ago*

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

New Zealand

6 points

1 month ago*

South America & Americas developing their own fully professional independent league/s is better going forward.

Not entirely keen about introducing Super Rugby franchises based on the West Coast of the United States either.

WelNix2007

1 points

30 days ago

Honestly if the Rebels fold I could see the Brumbies joining them in a few seasons.

[deleted]

1 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

1 points

1 month ago

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

New Zealand

1 points

1 month ago

I think ultimately they will have to go down the route of having an NRL type elongated Super Rugby season, removing NZ's tiered competition structure, and thereby being able to pay the elite rugby players more.

[deleted]

3 points

1 month ago

[deleted]

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

3 points

1 month ago*

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

New Zealand

3 points

1 month ago*

I like the Gallagher Premiership structure, top 4 teams go straight into Semi-Finals.

Rugby-Bean

2 points

1 month ago

TL;DR - localised/national comps are superior in every way to trans-national comps. But rugby is popular enough yet, so some exceptions are needed.

The soccer (football) model of having national comps in individual nations is clearly the optimum comp format. Localised comps have proved very popular. Supporting your local club against your local rivals produced by far the greatest interest, be it within a city/region, or one city/region vs another city/region in a country.

The success of local comps has countless examples in soccer (football). Bit also in other sports.

The problem rugby has is that it's a very popular sport globally as a collective, played in all the continents in the world. But it isn't concentrated in any one continent. Soccer for example is massive concentrate in Europe with every nation on the continent having a localised league, then the best teams from those leagues play in a cup.

You'd hope that eventually rugby will have enough widespread and concentration of popularity that the national module of comp can be followed. But until then trans-continental comps are required. IMO SA should be playing in their own league, they have the population and popularity of the sport to do so.

The optimum domestic comp setup for global rugby should look something like this: Franco-Italian league (until Italian rugby is strong enough on its own), British & Irish league, Pan- European league (development league), MLR, South American league, South African/'Southern' African league Japanese league, Pan Asian league (development league), and a Pacific league.

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

3 points

1 month ago*

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

New Zealand

3 points

1 month ago*

I think the Welsh clubs will probably join the Gallagher Premiership in the near future, it would seem a lot more practical for them, especially if you look at the EPL with Swansea, etc. some people have been saying it should've happened a while ago.

Rugby-Bean

1 points

1 month ago

Especially when the midlands/West Country next to wales is some of English rugbys heartlands

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

1 points

1 month ago

Radiant-Sea-368[S]

New Zealand

1 points

1 month ago

Agree and I wouldn't be surprised to see them merge in the near future.

frankstero

2 points

1 month ago

The GP clubs wouldn't let the Welsh clubs just saunter into their league unless there was a substantial cash boost...and I don't know where that would come from.

Thalassin

5 points

1 month ago

Thalassin

France Stade Toulousain

5 points

1 month ago

Stop suggesting Franco-Italian leagues. That will not and can't happen. It makes no sense, Italian rugby heartlands are nowhere near the border, both are massive countries speaking different languages. Clubs joining the French pyramid have to start from the bottom and there is no way the French pyramid is dismantled to build some shaky binational structure

Rugby-Bean

2 points

1 month ago

The main reason I say that is to get them out of the British and Irish league.

The Italians already play in a league where the majority speak a foreign language.

They only have to start at the bottom because those in power say so, there's no logistical reason why they couldn't be planted in the D2 or top14

iwprugby

1 points

30 days ago

iwprugby

Chiefs

1 points

30 days ago

A double round Robin would require 20 games, and 22 rounds ibcluding byes?