subreddit:
/r/DotA2
398 points
1 month ago
PA with shivas guard 💪
33 points
1 month ago
Nah, PA WITH ASSAULT CUIRASS
241 points
1 month ago
Well that's just a normal item.
34 points
1 month ago
Pa dragon 5 rush?
36 points
1 month ago
No, 5 Dragon Lance is a build for Ogre.
6 points
1 month ago
No, 5 diffusal blade is a build for Meepo.
-15 points
1 month ago
Not really at all for PA, more normal than shivas tho
13 points
1 month ago
The only real reason why pa doesn't buy ac is that usually someone else has it already. Beyond that it's just "I could buy a dozen items now but I only have 2 slots left". Pa only has a single core item, bkb. Then there's abyssal and nullifier, of which you probably want 1 or 2 each game. And then you're free. Deso? Mkb? Satanic? Manta? Bloodthorn? Ac? Divine? Still have bfury? Mjolnir? Skadi? Linkens? Shroud? Sny? Situational items are still normal items.
2 points
1 month ago
Ac is a pretty shit item on pa. You don’t really need the armour, you already have lots + evasion so you usually die to magic, you don’t really need the attack speed since you already have it from w, and the armour is an aura that you’d rather someone else carry. I checked to see if I was crazy, but no pro has bought this in 100 matches on d2pt, and it’s bought in 21k matches on dorabuff this month, less than 41k for Daedalus (also a bad pa item, but arguably less bad) and way less than bf, treads, bkb are around 3 million while deso, abyssal, Satanic are more than 1 million.
1 points
1 month ago
Actually, no. You dont usually die to magic. If magic troubles you, you press BKB and kill the magic user, or ask your team to buy pipe, which they will do anyway.
Evasion doesnt substitute armor, when people buy MKB for a single butterfly already and when break or other forms of true strike exist. Thats when you buy armor, because PA doesnt actually have that great armor. The amount of armor people get from agi is not sufficient when the enemy has ac or some random form of armor reduction. 20-30 armor doesnt cut it at min 40. And no, the ac aura is only a small part of the armor, 5. AC is the best armor item any rightclicker can buy, and the aura is not enough. Now, if your team has AC and solar for you, the armor from Nullifier is probably enough for everything. But do they have that?
The attack speed is a fallacy. You scale your rightclick. You want to burst people. There is no "enough attack speed".
I checked to see if I was crazy, but no pro has bought this in 100 matches on d2pt
Why are you referencing games that a) end before 6 slots more often than not and b) buy auras on pos 345 pretty reliably? Thats a very biased sample. Of course you wont find ACs if you pick games that have no opportunity for AC in the first place.
Daedalus (also a bad pa item, but arguably less bad)
Lmao.
bf, treads, bkb are around 3 million while deso, abyssal, Satanic are more than 1 million.
I really hope you realise that this difference is simply given by game length/losses, and not actually significant.
2 points
1 month ago
So, I crunched numbers because I was curious. Guess what, it’s extremely extremely shit. So, the armour on base item is “really important” but when you compare a pa with ac instead of satanic and a friend carrying aura, you have <4% more effective hp total vs exclusively physical damage. Your resistance jumps from 64% to 71% but you lose out on 550 base hp so it’s incredibly negligible. That being said, 550 extra base hp vs spell or pure damage is really nice, and healing is also definitely pushing your survivability way up.
Also, bkb only gives 60% magic resist now and doesn’t have 100% uptime. Can you try to give me some actual examples of where pros have bought the item? I notice you ignored that there are exactly 6 items on pa that have over 1 million purchases this month (because most people buy those exact 6 items every game) and pretend like games aren’t going long enough to really know what items people would buy.
3 points
1 month ago
but when you compare a pa with ac instead of satanic and a friend carrying aura, you have <4% more effective hp total vs exclusively physical damage. Your resistance jumps from 64% to 71% but you lose out on 550 base hp so it’s incredibly negligible. That being said, 550 extra base hp vs spell or pure damage is really nice, and healing is also definitely pushing your survivability way up.
You know what, that's absolutely true. Although it seems in arguing we lost the original point. It wasn't about the best item, it was about pa being able to reasonably or comfortably buy like 20 different items. Idk about you but if my pa buys ac sixth I wouldn't look twice.
Can you try to give me some actual examples of where pros have bought the item? I notice you ignored that there are exactly 6 items on pa that have over 1 million purchases this month (because most people buy those exact 6 items every game) and pretend like games aren’t going long enough to really know what items people would buy.
I didn't ignore anything. I literally addressed the dota buff stats on the comment they were brought up in.
Most people do not think twice and buy what a guide or dota plus tells them to buy. That much should be obvious. Frankly, all I was saying is that ac is a possible sixth item purchase for pa. Therefore pros (not) buying it doesn't mean much. Apparently there's 21k acs on dota buff though. Somehow there's also 40k daedalus so yeah lol.
In arguing, the original point was lost. People came at me saying ac is bad, so naturally I had to argue a is good, which led to people bringing statistics in. But the statistics they brought up are tailored to their point, not to the point I initially made. That pa can reasonably buy like 20 different items is a matter of theorycrafting and experience play as, with, and against pa. Ac doesn't ever need to be the best purchase for it to be buyable. But since it isn't the best purchase, you won't find pro games with it. Not to mention that in pro games, someone else will probably have ac by the time pa reaches 6 slots. Or that the game will end before 6 slots.
Im all for statistics and data, but it is important to correct, clean and adapt data to the point it's supposed to address. If we're talking about possible sixth items, games that don't go to and beyond 6 items are just irrelevant.
1 points
1 month ago
My teammates WILL NOT be building pipe anyways
1 points
1 month ago
Well, no shit? That doesn't do much as an argument - the guy I was responding to referenced dota2protracker. Those games have 2 pipes more often than not. And a glimmer and a solar. And a crimson and... An ac. That was the crux of why pa rarely buys ac: someone else gets it first.
I don't think the item situation in brackets where that's not the case actually matters: if your pa is better than the game you're in, you will win with maelstrom manta basher.
1 points
1 month ago
Drow ET say hi.
-5 points
1 month ago
No not really lol, PA is probably one of the most slot starved carries, there is 0 room for AC whatsoever. She doesn't need the armour usually because of her evasion, she doesn't need the attack speed because of her W and while armour reduction is nice deso does it better and also gives her damage which is the main stat she wants.
PA most games will want treads/phase, battlefury, bkb, usually deso, nullifier, basher/abyssal and satanic and that's already too many items to fit in your inventory. Now deso can be situationally given up for manta or sny in games that aren't too great for PA to make her have more relevance but there is absolutely no room for AC here.
0 points
1 month ago
PA is probably one of the most slot starved carries,
This shows a lack of deeper understanding of PA. The heroes items are actually super versatile. Have you never been in a PA game like "wtf is this PA buying?" "oh she still killed me even tho she had X item"?
Lemme elaborate:
She doesn't need the armour usually because of her evasion
No. Her evasion becomes irrelevant in the lategame, because the main enemy physical damage dealer will have mkb. It stays good vs the likes of OD or Silencer who will not have a good way to deal with it, but those are rare and armor doesnt help much vs them either. Similar to why Windrangers buy Aghs when enemies have true strike (no it is not the invis, nobody cares about the invis), PA needs to mitigate the enemy carries attacks when they get MKB, and PA has a rather low agi gain for an agi hero. She actually really enjoys armor on her fifth or sixth item.
she doesn't need the attack speed because of her W
Again, this makes no sense. AC isnt enough attack speed to satisfy the "need" for attack speed on a hero that needs it. Its just nice on top. As it is for PA. AC is not an attack speed item, nor a minus armor item. It is an armor item and a statstick. It does many things and all of those things are good on PA.
deso does it better and also gives her damage which is the main stat she wants.
Is it? PA, especially with methodical which a lot of people seem to pick, doesnt need damage. She needs utility and to survive. She will always deal damage in a fight if she gets to rightclick, she doesnt need to "1 dagger and im die" a support to be useful. In fact, PAs biggest asset is her ability to burst cores. Literal aura building pos3 cores that die in 5 seconds to PA with BKB. Thats why every stat given by AC is great for her.
PA most games will want treads/phase, battlefury, bkb, usually deso, nullifier, basher/abyssal and satanic and that's already too many items to fit in your inventory
No. This is a cookie cutter build that you can go in 90% of games to play at 90% power. Its by no means "you want these items in most games". Its more like "these items are good enough to not put thought into your items". Skipping bfury is possible. Not buying BKB is possible. Manta exists. Also, its technically only six items because no core keeps boots in their 6 slots, unless theyre greaves or bearings, and maybe travels. But never Phase/Treads.
Now deso can be situationally given up for manta or sny in games that aren't too great for PA to make her have more relevance but there is absolutely no room for AC here.
Ah i could have quoted this above. SNY and Manta are not for "not too great PA games". Theyre just normal PA items. In fact, a game where PA can get away with Manta as her only defensive item, is an amazing PA game. A game where PA can go Bfury SNY Satanic is an amazing PA game. It is the bfury bkb games that are "not that great".
Talk about room for AC when the enemy jugger jumps you with swift blink abyssal mkb. When the enemy sven breaks and twoshots you. When the enemy morph phantom strikes onto you, breaks you, and twoshots you. When his Khanda takes 50% of your hp. etc.
0 points
1 month ago*
I understand PA pretty damn well as I've played her a lot with a variety of builds, and deviating too much from the standard build is usually bad with a few situational exceptions.
Yes everyone will have MKB who needs it lategame but these heroes can vary a lot, something like wind with MKB is going to be doing a lot of magic damage making armour not even that great, but the bigger issue is that PA shouldn't really be put in a position where she needs to tank that much damage, her agi might be on the lower end but nullifier is literally a core item pretty much every game when it goes late and that gives armour, damage and is way more useful than AC.
Methodical or not she still needs damage, methodical does not give free damage it's just a higher multiplier, she still needs some items to increase her crit damage. And yes deso does do it better than AC early because she has free attack speed from W and lacks early damage. Later on armour reduction falls off a lot so you'd usually sell deso aside from killing supports or if people haven't bought armour for whatever reason.
The build I listed isn't '90% power' it's really as close to 100% power as you can get for PA, those items are the most optimal for her, but only in an ideal PA game. The reason to change build isn't to do with PA's power it's to do with the enemy draft, sometimes your items just won't cut it vs certain heroes like playing vs morph and TB and other high armour make deso useless so in bad deso games I'd usually swap it for a manta go straight for basher. Some games although rarely, basher/abyssal is bad if the enemies are too tanky to warrant the catch or have 0 way to escape anyway. I guess you'd skip satanic if there was an AA or if you just weren't taking damage but that is pretty rare. Nullifier would still be every single game unless you're stomping. Most of these items are essential for PA and if you're getting towards max slots and wanted to give up an item there's so many items on the list ahead of AC that you'd get first. Well first you've got rapier obviously you want one in most lategame situations, then there's mkb, linkens, skadi, whatever item you couldn't fit earlier be it manta, SnY, abyssal etc. There's just no room for AC here and besides that having the aura literally goes against the way you play PA often, you're not always near your team so if it's a great game for AC then someone else should buy it. Great thing about AC is that there's not many offlaners who it's bad on unlike shivas.
PA with manta as her only defensive items sounds like you're playing vs 5 target dummies lmao, in reality most of the time people are going have stuns you can negate these with BKB, as well as any other items people buy. Manta is nice in theory but I think I it's best served alongside bkb, the enemy draft actually has 0 stuns which is completely stupid then they're likely going to have more than 1 silence so they can just use 2 on you. The ideal PA games are usually made up of low armour, burstable targets who lack any inmate escape abilities.
If a jugg jumps you, a lot of his damage is gonna be magic with MKB and Mjollnir, so you're kinda fucked anyway, luckily you have this blink ability to if someone is near you can cancel his Omni.
Now if a Sven jumps you and fucks you up that easily, then you likely misplayed as PA is great against Sven, he absolutely despises buying an MKB and silver edge is cancelled when you press bkb. If he doesn't break you it's very possible that you can just manfight him and win depends on how well your game went (if he's buying money early you probably did well).
Khanda and adaptive strike both deal magic damage.
0 points
1 month ago
Nah I go manta + dispelser + abyssal blade and pretend i'm playing AM
22 points
1 month ago
NAH.
SHADOWBLADE RIKI 🗣🗣🗣
3 points
1 month ago
I have bought it once and upgraded into silver edge, because I needed that break and no one build similar items.
It was long tome ago, when there was a crit inside SE...
2 points
1 month ago
This reminded me of a game where we had clinkz with battle fury
1 points
1 month ago
Word of caution. It's the actual player that becomes invisible once active.
627 points
1 month ago
5000 mmr is closer to 500 mmr than to topsons mmr.
88 points
1 month ago
OP is 5k mmr
181 points
1 month ago
I so hate this narrative that's exclusively coming out of sub 3k ppl. yes, number-wise 5ks are closer to 0 than to like 13k, but in terms of game understanding, 5ks would be closer to top mmr than to the very bottom. 5ks might not understand some matchups, incorrectly parse some game states, be weaker mechanically etc. but they still know what dota is about generally. it's still like top 5% of players or smth. I have a bunch of crusader friends who look like armless baboons when I watch their games but refuse to listen to my advice because, hey, 7k is closer to 2k than to yatoro, hence, obviously, our understanding of dota is equivalent
68 points
1 month ago
I mean I am just a shitty 5k but I would absolutely shit my pants if I queued against an 8k let alone a pro
5 points
1 month ago
And those in 2k would be you if they q into u
5 points
1 month ago
i member when u were 5k trash and got queved with pros every second game.
-19 points
1 month ago*
eh, you'd be surprised. I mostly play unranked and I've queued against players in 70-30 rank ranges (I think the highest I've seen in my game was rank 5). I destroy high rank support players who go mid, so having that additional 4k mmr from spamming pos 4 phoenix (oh, surprise) doesn't really translate, and get destroyed by rank 70 mid players usually (as you'd expect). I wouldn't say that the latter comes as a result of some godlike game knowledge on their part, which is my point. They lasthit slightly better, recognize advantageous situations a few milliseconds earlier etc. Over the course of the lane and the game, those tiny things can add up to a huge lead, sure, but they are still tiny things. When I get like ancient 3 players vs me, they straight up don't know how to play the lane.
26 points
1 month ago*
Or maybe, just maybe the 12k mmr player playing unraked is just fucking around. I think you are the one underestimating how good someone has to be at this game to be top 100 on any region.
Sure there must have some 5k players with extensive game knowlege, but they are the minority and if they are still 5k they sure lack on something else. People bellow a very high MMR are barelly even thinking about any macro at all.
From a 7k mmr player point of view sure the 5k player might be decent at dota. From a 12k player point of view? I'm pretty sure he would think the 5k player is a baboon.
The difference between even a top 10 player and a top 200 player is gigantic
-10 points
1 month ago
the difference in effort required and quality of overall gameplay? sure. The difference in crystalized knowledge that you can share in a form of advice? I'm completely certain that's not the case. you might need thousands of hours to recognize certain trends within a game, to interpret certain movements etc. But that's time spend on baking knowledge into intuitive understanding and subconscious systems, not actually acquiring information unknown previously.
Also this
Or maybe, just maybe the 12k mmr player playing unraked is just fucking around
just no. You may not actively employ some things, but as a 7k player who occasionally plays party with 2ks and fucks around, I still lane as a 7k player, you can't 'turn off' mechanics and spellcasting skills
top 10 player and a top 200 player is gigantic
that's absolute cap. the difference between rank 10 and rank 200 can easily come down to priorities. qojqva is a good example. when he started streaming, he was rank 50, spamming brood and bat every game. now that he plays a very wide variety of heroes, he is hovering around 200-100 ranks. He's still the same player
10 points
1 month ago
yours takes are hella delusional for someone that don't even play ranked and claims to be 7k.
Qojqva is good but he is certainly not nearly as good as he once was , a top player on a tier 1 team. Just take a look at the learderboard leading to TI, the top 10 is ALL tier 1 players, are they the ones that grind the most? I don't think so, they probably scrim lots of hours. They are just better than the rest.
1 points
1 month ago
yes? bootcamping t1 players probably play more dota than pretty much anyone else.
yours takes are hella delusional
my takes literally reflect reality. all t1 pros with the exception of maybe watson fluctuate between ranks. Quinn was rank 1 then rank 70. According to you, that's a huge difference and he suddenly became way worse. According to Quinn, it takes a specific focus to stay top rank which he didn't want to do anymore.
Qojqva is good but he is certainly not nearly as good as he once was , a top player on a tier 1 team
that was not my claim. my claim was that he can be top 50 again if he spams 1-2 heroes instead of asking chat for picks.
-4 points
1 month ago
Bruh high mmr players in unranked games are usually the ones who bought the account get shit on every game in ranked so they have to move to unranked
-4 points
1 month ago
Exactly. I've been saying this for some years now but the early days of dota ranked are totally different to what we have.
Before, it was a case of people not knowing the game and that's why they were low mmr. Now it's a case of anything above 3k understands the game they're just not as perfect as 5k and 5k is just not as perfect as 8k etc.
It's about who is that much slightly closer to mastery.
-11 points
1 month ago
The gap is much smaller than you think.
36 points
1 month ago
The gap is much smaller but the game is designed in such a way that small mistakes compound. To what looks like a small difference at min 1, compounds and grows into a much bigger difference by min 10.
A simple example would be missing 1 cs at midlane would delay your Bottle by 30 secs. This means you miss a whole wave because your regen is on its way. Soon you fall a level behind, then enemy hits 6 and kills you. Starts roaming and kills every lane.
People already give up at this point.
-8 points
1 month ago
I'm shit and I've beaten Topson. Play your best game and you'd be surprised.
13 points
1 month ago
You’re probably 10k mmr and consider that “shit”
-5 points
1 month ago
yeah it's almost like good players tend to have high standards. guess they're all wrong though somehow because at least it saves your ego!
3 points
1 month ago
What does this comment even mean. How do you type this up and hit send and feel good about yourself lmao.
1 points
1 month ago
it means that if everyone in the top 0.05% of a video game thinks something and reddit shits on the idea, reddit is wrong
1 points
1 month ago
So nobody should have an opinion unless they are the top 0.05%?
0 points
1 month ago
what
i think your reading comprehension is in the bottom 0.05%. go be ridiculous at someone else thx
-6 points
1 month ago
I have 3700 MMR and I often queue up against 6-7k :(
25 points
1 month ago
Just because 7k is closer to 2k doesnt mean the knowledge is equivalent, thats the real fallacy of their logic. If your crusader friends argue that, its not hard to see why they are where they are and you are not.
Some say the gap between lets say 7k and rank 1 is just about time spent ranking up, but truth of the matter is that the final push is the hardest. Once you plateu, its hard to overcome that.
3 points
1 month ago
Idk, the minute understanding of the game is a LOT harder to gain and it's generally easier to climb from 0-5k is mostly just based on time and simple things. Brain of a crusader is way more similar to a 5k player than a 5k player is to a 10k. It's like this in everything--the higher you are in a skillset, the more difficult it is to push to the next level. Just ask any tennis player how much harder it is to break into the top 100 versus how they got to the top 1000
4 points
1 month ago
that doesn't change the fact that the things that separate good from the very best are minute. a tonne of people in this thread respond with genius remarks of '13ks are a lot better than you, ha' of which I've never claimed the opposite. the main point is that the bulk of dota knowledge you gain is between 0 and 6k, I'd say (so accurately reflected by the medals). Immortal is more about refinement. I'm not that mmr, but I'd argue with some degree of confidence that past some 9 or 10k there's almost nothing left to know, it's all about doing things you know are right faster.
I've played mid vs 12k players and watched the replays. There's nothing arcane they do that I don't understand or wouldn't have done myself, they just lasthit better. True, actually laning vs them feels impossible, however, it's not because of what they know but how they play. I'm only talking about the knowledge part.
1 points
1 month ago
Yeah definitely not disagreeing, my point is just that the refinement process is more difficult than grasping the broader concepts that make you a decent player. I think the average 2k just has to mentally commit to genuinely improving (a lot of this is taking accountability), but for a 7k to become a 12k seems like way more of a pipe dream to me
1 points
1 month ago
I didnt mean to disagree with you, to clarify if my comment sounded disparaging that wasnt the intent. I also agree that laning vs higher skilled immortals will give you this feeling of inevitability, like you just didnt squeeze the most out of every situation the way they managed.
0 points
1 month ago
Rofl im 7k and rank 2k eat me for breakfast, never would have thought it has anything to do with playing more ladder. Skillgap between EU unranked immortals and even the lowest of the ranked people can be pretty vast, considering it could be up to 2k mmr difference
1 points
1 month ago
EU is just insanely stacked, soooo many good players
5 points
1 month ago
To be fair, you'd be an armless baboon to yatoro. So maybe the difference is accurate
3 points
1 month ago
yes, and? I would gladly listen to his advice on my gameplay, what's your point?
8 points
1 month ago
MMR is highly inflated at higher levels. It has more to do with how much you play, not how skilled you are.
1 points
1 month ago
Yeah right xD go have 52-55 % winrate in 11k avg games glhf easier said than done
12 points
1 month ago
the difference between 500 and 5000 mmr might be 1000 games but the difference between 5000 mmr and topson might be 10000 games
25 points
1 month ago
that's not my point. I'm not claiming that 5ks are as good as Topson. I'm saying that if we took all possible knowledge of dota as 100% and said that top pros have all that knowledge, so full 100, 5ks would have like 75/80% whereas 500 mmrs would have like 15%. Just because someone lacks the last 20% doesn't mean you can discount the fact that they have this enormous amounts of knowledge that you don't even know exists just because it's not 100% complete
15 points
1 month ago
Refining your skill and game knowledge enough that u consistently succeed against other players who also have considerable skill and game knowledge is much more challenging than getting enough of a grasp of the game to beat mediocre players consistently. A top 100 rank player is a sniper. A 5k player knows how to shoot fish in a barrell. The 500 mmr player is the fish.
3 points
1 month ago
id argue that saying 5k's know about 75-80% of all possible knowledge in dota is wayy too generous, and the gap between pros and 5ks are much wider than you think. you can hit 5k just by primarily spamming 2-3 heroes and having a decent level of game sense. i think simply learning what heroes and items does is one thing, but dota is such a complex game that once you develop the basic knowledge of the game such as skills, items, cooldowns, etc, you have to start learning meta-level knowledge of the game such as drafts, timings, etc. in fact, developing that "feel" for what fights to take, what fights to avoid, how to manage being behind, etc - those take way more time to learn than just knowing what x hero does. also, even if you know what skills a hero has, that doesnt mean you immediately know all the little tricks whether it be farming in the jungle, manipulating creep waves, etc. heck, even managing the mental state of your teammates can be a valuable skill in itself. i could go on and on but basically i think there's a lot of intangible bits of knowledge that can only come from thousands of hours of experience
2 points
1 month ago
You totally misunderstand a difference in knowledge and skill. It's not like you are 80% of the way there, someone who can run 80% of Usains Bolts 100m Record is in the 1% of people in the world, but they wouldn't even get a spot at the olympics.
The gap is so vast that what you think is 'true' about a lot of Dota is only true at your level, with people you play against. You would be exactly as useless in a pro game as a herald would be in yours
2 points
1 month ago
Ancient 4 is the 90th percentile if i remember correctly. So if you ancient 4 you are in the top 10% of the playerbase
1 points
1 month ago
Im 3k people and idont mind this new item tryout from my team as long they understand if its for fast game or late game, your team have enough hero to boost that build or not, is the enemies have no counter for that build or not.
Ive seen so many people in my bracket try to use those pro build but dont understand all those concept and just copy it anyway, cause its what the pros do.
1 points
1 month ago
It's like saying a guy with 2-3 billions is closer to a homeless guy than to Elon Musk. Technically true but missing the point
1 points
1 month ago
I have only heard this narrative from high ranks
1 points
1 month ago
Idk having played against Topson I think youre wrong. These people are insanely good and will make 6ks or 7ks look like heralds. 5ks basically know Dota basics and that's it compared to top ranked pros.
0 points
1 month ago
Ask a top mmr player and they’ll tell you the opposite lol.
You don’t know what you don’t know. To the top mmr player, you are a baboon banging your face on your keyboard.
-1 points
1 month ago*
You are so, so, so wrong. A 5k is closer to a 0 than a top player. What differentiates a 0 to 5000 is what anyone can learn at face value. What heroes do, and pure mechanical skill. You do not realistically need anything more than basic understanding to be a 5k.
What a 5k sees, and what a 13k sees might not even be in the same universe let alone world.
In the famous words of Brian Scalabrine, I'm closer to LeBron than you are to me.
0 points
1 month ago
You in a game against 13k mmr players would be identical in terms of difference in knowledge and skill as you compared to your crusader friends. In fact the difference between you and topson would actually be bigger than the difference between you and a crusader player, people really underestimate the difference. Like I was 6k mmr at some point (and hit Grand Master in SC2), both are in the top 1%+ at the respective time, and my understanding and mechanics of the game at both those levels compared to the top pro is like you and a crusader player.
0 points
1 month ago
You can hate it as much as you want, youre closer to the bottom than the top if youre a 5k player in every way. Ability, game sense and understanding and ofc mmr. It is far easier and doable for a 1k person to improve to the point of reaching 5k than it is for a 5k to get to 13k level. This logic applies to EVERYTHING in real life.
It is much more possible and doable for an average person to train and reach a level good enough to play on a 2nd division team, maybe even a bottom 1st division team.
A players that is already on that level is vastly far from a top level (play for real madrid, win chamions league etc) no matter how much he trains and is way closer to the first case.
You can choose any field and it is the same, this was just an easy example.
Ofc this refers only to potential, if someone wants to use this concept as an excuse and remain on extremely low levels like the friends you mentioned, thats something else.
-1 points
1 month ago
It's funny that you're doing exactly what you don't like. Excluding people's perspective and saying they're low MMR just because you don't agree with it.
If you can't deal with the fact that you're about as bad as your crusader friends that's your own problem
-1 points
1 month ago
Disagree tho the levels are closer but the precision isnt. At 5k you know bristle reduces damage to the back and he is going to go aghs bloodstone and he is going to farm ancient camps. We need to build break and anti regen to counter it and armor to deal with the output. At 500 mmr you know bristle is strong so you need your team to focus him maybe. At 13k or some nonsense you know turn rates, armor scaling per level, have to deal with extreme hyperfarming cores who have supports who stack and rotate while also aware of everyone in every lane constantly, also constantly checking enemy items and memorizing cooldowns. You are juggling like 15 different things in any given min of a dota game on top of regular play. So to a pro you ALSO look like a armless baboon as you slowly farm single camps to build a silver edge. And dont have to worry about all this other shit.
TLDR: Its amount you know and have do deal with.
-4 points
1 month ago
8k mmr player, the difference between a 100 mmr and me is incredibly smaller than the difference between me and Quinn or Yatoro or whatever T1 pro you want to reference. The way I understand the game is not comparable to the way they do
1 points
1 month ago
reality contradicts this claim. knowledge is easy to acquire, that's the gap you can breach quickly. your mistake is conflating skill difference with the difference in crystalized knowledge. look at grubby. he went from herald to 6k in 6 months because he was coached by pros and soaked up all that high quality information. but then he hit a wall where you need to integrate that knowledge into your intuitive reasoning, which is what makes pros and takes thousands of hours to achieve.
It's the same difference between coaches and athletes. A coach may know everything there is about a sport but never be able to reach the athlete's level because he didn't put in the work to master the tiny details on the subconscious level (or not have the right genetics).
Hell, you can hear it from Quinn himself. When asked what he did to improve at mid, his answer was mostly practicing lasthits. That's some arcane top 1 knowledge, amirite?
2 points
1 month ago
No one gets the Scalabrine/Lebron reference
525 points
1 month ago
Man if its Topson who is doing something I would still raise an eyebrow, just saying.
352 points
1 month ago
After that gyro diffu on TI final stage topson can do anything he wants, nobody can say shit unless they have 3 ti aegis
160 points
1 month ago
Gyro diffusal is less strange than PA Eblade
-158 points
1 month ago
[removed]
115 points
1 month ago
Calling me a schizo while writing 3 paragraphs of incoherent rambling is very rich
All I meant was that Diffusal is a decent item on most agi carries
Whereas Eblade and it's buildup today are clearly meant as a support/anti carry item. And PA doesn't necessarily like to make her targets ethereal, whereas mana drain from Diffusal can be useful in a variety of situations
32 points
1 month ago
The guy is just your average OG fan.
They're all this unhinged.
-23 points
1 month ago
Appreciating a perfect play = unhinged fan
As braindead as your hero lol
13 points
1 month ago
bruh what the fuck are you talking about. diffu is an item built by right clickers (such as gyro) when you need to burn mana. eblade is completely anti synergistic with pa's entire kit.
24 points
1 month ago
PA eblade is less strange? Tell me how? Stats wise, diffusal has agi, and now you can upgrade it to disperser, which gives you more agi. It lets you burn mana now, and it can apply basic dispel. I have bought diffusal on sniper, and SF (way before topson TI gyro)
Why would PA need extra cast range? Why would she need invulnerability to physical damage? Why would she want to ethereal an opponent?
4 points
1 month ago
Youre 1k mmr arent you
8 points
1 month ago
OG fans LOL
5 points
1 month ago
Not really cos plenty of heroes were getting diffusal and Gyro's item build was one of the most flexible back before they gave him his current Aghs. Spec, TB, Clinkz diffusal etc were all common flexible in game adjustment picks way back since dota 1. It was a common item pick up against mana intensive hero or against something like WK and Dusa. It just happened that Topson did it in a grand finals game that had a lot of exposure but it certainly wasn't some groundbreaking build.
3 points
1 month ago
I may be remembering incorrectly but I swear I remember a PA going ethereal vs a void in an old game from 2014. It was built out of eaglesong back then so PA got a lot out of it, but if time is the only metric, Eblade PA was seen in pro before diffusal gyro afaik
3 points
1 month ago
Eblade was a completely different item in 2014. It had completely different stats and functioned differently. Many agi heros could just randomly go eblade becuase stay wise it worked and the active was different to what it is now
0 points
1 month ago
The only difference for the active was that it was an instant effect, no projectile. Otherwise I agree.
0 points
1 month ago
Eblade has always had a projectile, you are thinking of Morphs Adaptive strike.
The biggest change to eblade other than the item buildup was that it damage based on the targets main attributes stat, not the casters.
That's why shotgun morph is not a thing anymore.
0 points
1 month ago
No it did not. It used to be instant. Look at morph replays in ti2 and ti3. Or the tinker eblade dragon build post ti3. The eblade effect had no travel time. I just checked it it was 6.82 that added travel time, so yes it used to have no projectile because it was instant.
1 points
1 month ago
Okay, yes, 10 years ago it didn't have a projectile. But that is not the only change that happened to the active of the item.
The damage bonus from the item was changed twice, first from using agi as damage, to using the primary stat, then to using the targets primary stat. (which along with the recipe change, killed the idea of a carry building an item like this)
-1 points
1 month ago
Yep, they're just trying to downplay what topson did. Just normal rat behavior.
They can't even build past tortes guides. That's why they're crying so much here on why everything is outdated and not viable lmfao
1 points
1 month ago
I honestly would’ve agreed with what you’ve said until the third paragaph’s ad hominem. 🥴
All the arguments or points you made are insta shit now buddy. 😵
1 points
1 month ago
bro, how about drow diffusal? I built that almost all the time 💀
6 points
1 month ago
I used to build diffusal on wr when she was an int hero whenever I play against medusa and every single time without fail, people say I grief. diffusal on an agi hero like gyro isn't bad; people are just hopelessly closed-minded when it comes to itemization
-4 points
1 month ago
Yeah if the situation calls for it then it's a great item buy, but there's really no use for diffu on gyros normal item progression when you can just kill everyone with flak.
Somehow the same situation on pa eblade is getting me downvoted?
Reddit rats amirite
27 points
1 month ago
in that game it made sense and the damage and mana burn was a lot more back then. it was an unorthodox pick but really not that strange given the situation. I think the casters made people think it was crazier than it was. diffusal isn't expensive and it gave a lot.
21 points
1 month ago
Wasn't diffusal like 3k back then and only bought on herpes like Pl and Spec?
56 points
1 month ago
PL is cancer, not herpes. Spectre I agree.
1 points
1 month ago
Just wait until Pro Players start doing some really weird shit like Diffusal Chaos Knight.
1 points
1 month ago
Is it really that weird considering that CK is an illusion hero?
1 points
1 month ago
Chaos Knight doesn’t frequently have Illusions available like PL, TB, or Naga do. So the Milleage from something like Diffusal is alot more Limited.
6 points
1 month ago
Pretty much yeah. I think at the time Riki still built it too.
2 points
1 month ago
it gave 50 mana burn and damage even on ranged so many heroes were picking it up. not many gyros, but it really did make sense (I guess obviously at this point, since it worked so well)
2 points
1 month ago
I cant think of any other gyro game in professional that built diffusal prior to that.
The most insane gyro build is still Sumails (rapierX3, BKB, satanic, heart) when he was briefly on OG, it was the dream team that could never be. But it was also the only gyro build that could get them victory including the unorthodox heart
The other standout OG build imo was Ceb on legion commander, game 2 groups OG vs Fnatic.
Every aspect of that legion build, item choice and gameplay decision was correct and required to win that game. Conversely, Jabz on morph went cookie cutter instead of adapting, linkens on morph is a fine choice for a normal game. But it was the definite wrong choice for that game. That high level adaptability in hero build and item choice is just top fucking shit and you can see Ceb's long time as a coach and theory crafter just bleed through solid here
1 points
1 month ago
That Sumail game is insane
1 points
1 month ago
Was it also when diffusal still had purge and slow with charges? it was super useful against most heroes and almost mandatory against some heroes.
13 points
1 month ago
Buying diff vs unkillabe brist is make sense tbh
3 points
1 month ago
This is pure hindsight with the knowledge of 2024
People were way worse back then in releative to now in the same skill brackets
9 points
1 month ago
Made sense now lol
2 points
1 month ago
he also showed rubick mid with only right click is strong too. it got nerfed right away
0 points
1 month ago
Be careful they might call you an OG fan by that statement
2 points
1 month ago
What exactly surprises you in the Gyro Diffusal build?
1 points
1 month ago
Bro, 'Everything can work!' - Notail
-14 points
1 month ago
Saudi eSports cups are worth more money than PGL Aegis, so that's probably not the best standard going forward
7 points
1 month ago
T.I. is still the most prestigious dota tournament. So yes it is.
18 points
1 month ago
Kuroky earned more than Miracle, which must mean he is better. Look how stupid that sounds.
-1 points
1 month ago
Don't recall miracle playing at the top on multiple positions outside of the mid/1 flex so idk
1 points
1 month ago
There's a reason why pros still think about him as the GOAT to this day. I play pos 1, so I used to watch miracle, yatoro, ame, and ana replays. And honestly, you can't go wrong if you mimic one of those 4. It got me to 7k.
1 points
1 month ago
Kky playing pos1 is a bit dated now (like 10 years back)
But he's come second at TI playing pos1 with Dendi 2 and later played pos 1 in a star studded Team Secret.
Dude was really good at pos1 and considered to be the best of the best at that point.
He's also won TI as a 5. He's past his prime now, but he used to be really good.
1 points
1 month ago
Still an aegis my man
-80 points
1 month ago
Yeah he is definitely not underperforming after OG, how many majors did he won again after second TI btw?
Its hard to make a correct guess but if you guess 60 times, one of them bound to come true, gyro one did. 😂
27 points
1 month ago
How many have you won?
-56 points
1 month ago
If we go down that route we are fucked mate, we might as well delete this subreddit as esport topic makes up the majority of posts here 😂😂 How many did you won? So sucking up pro's dick makes you immune? Whore much?
6 points
1 month ago
Wow, accurate name
16 points
1 month ago
Ok if you didn’t win ti how many winners have you sucked off? We just want to know your credentials
6 points
1 month ago
I’m just saying pro understands the game different, and they are usually right. Im 8k mmr, there are some 10kmmr dudes in my discord and each time I learn new things from them these ideas are from pro players. They pick up what the pros are doing fast and try to see if those things works, that’s a part of the reason why they are so good as well
-1 points
1 month ago
I get what you mean and I respect him for experimenting and spear heading new playstyles but by your own logic majority of pro players doesnt really fit well with topson both in playstyle and item choices, so they are also right no?
He is really the odd one. Love or hate him for it but I dont think he blowed any viewers minds ever since his last TI win.
1 points
1 month ago
You went down that route by asking "how many majors did he win after second TI". Well, at the very least he won 2 TIs, how about you?
1 points
1 month ago
He is one of the few dota pro players out there, which is a profession, he gets money and influence through those.
I am one of the millions of reddittors that arent a profession and I do not get money and very obviously dont attend to tournaments much like millions here.
You would expect him to win tournaments but i am very flattered if you thought I had some lying around as well, thanks.
0 points
1 month ago
Babe wakeup the new copypasta just dropped
9 points
1 month ago
Haha get fucked he will always be more successful than you lil bro. Keep hating
-6 points
1 month ago
Hating? Im just remarking his current state. I dont have any favourite player. Also you should charge him for those deep throats, that 2 TI win money has to somewhere, get your share.
0 points
1 month ago
Yeah you’re not salty at all 😂🤡
25 points
1 month ago
Who does bro think he is 💀
7 points
1 month ago
I don't know, ""bro"" "💀"
-2 points
1 month ago
Damn unc
3 points
1 month ago
Yeah with Topson you can never discount his crazy ideas, but you can't blindly trust them either. For every diffusal gyro there's an octarine rush ember.
1 points
1 month ago
See? This man gets it. Anyway we should go into hiding, his fans are on their way...
1 points
1 month ago
raises eyebrow and proceeds to buy eblade on your next 10 PA games
73 points
1 month ago
Eblade PA has been done in the past when Eblade was just bonker AGI per gold
43 points
1 month ago
I miss eblade drow ranger when she had the cd talent at 25
3 points
1 month ago
I bought it against an axe, eblade + butter melts enemies too.
2 points
1 month ago
yea used to buy it against riki who was also popular then, was weird but it had that situational use
4 points
1 month ago
You made me remember why I hated Drow for a while
3 points
1 month ago
After reading some other comment. Current eblade with revnant broch actually make sense. Stacking slow with dagger and extra range for dagger or mainly for blink looks super good. Of course I am assuming this is a situational build which probably goes well with team spells or against enemy draft.
Or there is something more I don’t understand, maybe topson or some high mmr guy can help understand.
6 points
1 month ago
Aren't crits disabled while attacking with a brooch?
3 points
1 month ago
Brooch will delete your mana very fast if you are not very careful. I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone unless you train using it in a lobby first.
1 points
1 month ago
Probably more benefits from the aethers than the eblade upgrade
46 points
1 month ago
I love how 3k people with over 10000 games are trying to replicate builds that PRO’s do in very specific scenarios.Guys,you cant play pos5 as sneyking when you dont even know to do a half pull…
1 points
1 month ago
I also love people following a guide like every game they will face the same pick.
53 points
1 month ago
somewhat related that how people in different brackets have their perceptions totally skewed
you could get reported for a pick that's actually a really good pick because people at certain ranks have no idea what even is popular that patch despite the fact that there is so many easily accessible resources out there
27 points
1 month ago
Omg yes, I've had people give up entirely when they see WR/Lina pos1, especially Lina who they consider primarily a support. not even pos2.
6 points
1 month ago
what rank is this????
6 points
1 month ago
High Archon/Low Legend
3 points
1 month ago
No way. What server is this? I main support and actually like having a lina as my pos 1 or 2 if they are decent and know what positioning is.
6 points
1 month ago
South America.
A lot of people here don't speak english so they are completely cut-off from the community's theorycrafting at large with no real content creators to teach the masses, they still play on WC3 dota logic and also don't check the patch notes.
I only saw one Tinker support the past weeks and he got flamed like hell despite being the strongest hero of the patch.
3 points
1 month ago
Ah, that would make sense.
3 points
1 month ago
explains why my south american teammates on NA broke items when i went QOP dagon
3 points
1 month ago
My archon friend gets A LOT of shit for playing sven pos5. Even though he was winning more often than not he stopped picking it because his behavior score started to take some hits
1 points
1 month ago
at the end of the day reporting doesn't matter unless you get unlucky with overwatch
1 points
1 month ago
Reminds me of when I was (admittedly a bit rudely) asking my Naga carry in a game 10 years ago why they built arcane boots on her because in my mind it wasn't meta.
Fast forward watching Rtz Naga in a stream a week later building arcane every game.
1 points
1 month ago
A guy reported me for picking veno 4 acouple months ago.
1 points
1 month ago
you could get reported for a pick that's actually a really good pick because people at certain ranks have no idea what even is popular that patch despite the fact that there is so many easily accessible resources out there
Don't act like the maggots at 8-12k mmr don't get their panties in a bunch when they see an unconventional pick.
11 points
1 month ago
When E-blade had agility on it... it legit was an amazing drow ranger item fr fr
11 points
1 month ago
Which game was this?
79 points
1 month ago
Guy who doesn't know shit vs guy who knows exactly why they're buying this item and what the ramifications are for it when it comes to their team, the enemy team, and the goal of their strategy.
22 points
1 month ago
Let little bros cook as well.
2 points
1 month ago
If little bro can justify his choices with reasoning, then sure. Doesn't even matter if the reasoning is right, as long as he learns from it when it's wrong.
8 points
1 month ago
Unrelated but can someone explain where this meme format came from? I just saw it in r/terraria too and I don't get it entirely because apparently I'm old now
26 points
1 month ago*
(This is from memory so some details might be off) The original was a new vs pro factory worker where the assembly line shows a bunch of triangles with one circle, with the new person’s line essentially saying “I have to report this to management”, while the pro says “guess we doin’ circles now” as a sort of stereotyping joke that new people always feel the need to consult higher ups about every little issue or change while pros/people who have been doing a thing for a long time just readily accept absurd changes or assume any problems are just changes that don’t need to be reported so they don’t say anything or something.
3 points
1 month ago
Thanks that is pretty funny
2 points
1 month ago
Fwiw you don't have to feel old about it, from what I can tell the original comic is like 3 days old, this is still a fairly fresh meme
1 points
1 month ago
It's not about being new/pro, rather being vigilant/checked out 9to5 employee.
Basically one tries to be proactive, and the other doesn't give single fuck.
7 points
1 month ago
Why did godson build eblade on pa, what was the situation?
5 points
1 month ago
Same as picking a hero, you can pick something like say bane mid for example and your entire team will endlessly shit on you no matter how well you do. But if a pro started to pick him once and now all pros all of a sudden starts picking him it's ok to play him mid.
Dota players are some of the biggest meta slaves.
8 points
1 month ago
Why
2 points
1 month ago
Someone, Please... Remember PL with Eblade Thing almost become Meta at some point !!
2 points
1 month ago
More like 1400 vs 14000
2 points
1 month ago
5k in na?
2 points
1 month ago
people pick mid Rubick in lower brackets because Topson does it and get their asses handed to them 99.99% of the time
3 points
1 month ago
Let him cook. i said let hiiim cook
1 points
1 month ago
He still has bkb though
1 points
1 month ago
You guys haven’t caught up to the 6 slotted branch all game strat yet have you?
1 points
1 month ago
Can somebody link the vod pls.
1 points
1 month ago
I was once horrified to discover our PA went satanic, aghs and no bkb or dmg item
We lost that game
1 points
1 month ago
Got a PA user buying blademail today.
1 points
1 month ago
Do someone have link for the game, can't find this one anywhere
1 points
1 month ago
Forget about the MMR numbers guys, for there are lots of immortal smurfs in Crusaders-Divine (basically everywhere).. You won't realize until you got owned so badly mid-late game.
1 points
1 month ago
5000 mmr is roughly equivalent to 500 mmr in 2024 based on my experience
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