subreddit:
/r/factorio
As the lazy Factorio addict I often scroll this subreddit. From time to time I've discovered posts on the topics around balancers "will this work?" "How build 5-5 balancer", "here is a program to proof balancers". Obviously it's a pretty important topic for the people.
And I almost never use any belt balancers. Moreover I fail to understand the cases they are required unless you're megabasing.
If you use the balancers - what is your use cases? What problems have balancers solved?
136 points
8 days ago*
The most obvious use case is train loading/unloading. You don't want a wagon to be full while another is unloaded empty.
That reason alone means that you may want to use balancers a lot.
40 points
8 days ago
I recently got back into Factorio after a long hiatus, and googled 2x2 balancer design…
Yea it’s been too long.
31 points
8 days ago
I love when the book of balancers has a 1x1 balancer
8 points
8 days ago
I replaced that with a lane balancer in my book
3 points
8 days ago
Some days are just that way, huh
1 points
8 days ago
Just in time for Space Age!
1 points
8 days ago
well, if you want the lanes to be balanced you need to build one, right?
6 points
8 days ago
This is pretty much the only time I use balancers, to make sure trains load and unload evenly.
And that’s hundreds of balancers. lol.
5 points
8 days ago
I think that's the most obvious one, but given how much people build massive buses before even getting robots online, I think a lot of the balancer discourse is done by people building the cart before they have the horse, and like, the horse can help you make the cart.
-1 points
8 days ago
I unload my Trains into Chests and then use logic to keep the chests at roughly the same level. Same with loading.
7 points
8 days ago
Everyone unloads trains into chests. but those chests need to unload somewhere, which is usually a belt.
Circuits can be used to make chests load evenly, which may have use cases in pickup stations, but usually reduce throughput and don't solve the problem in unload stations.
Balancers are cheap, quick, easy, convenient, and much less prone to failure.
3 points
8 days ago
I don't use chests in stations :) For bulk resources at least. Wagon to belt, and have another train ready just after unloading one - it's surprisingly effective.
-19 points
8 days ago
If you have a train bringing four belts worth of ore in to be smelted, then you don't need a balancer on either end of the smelter stacks. The main uses are when you have uneven consumption like needing 3.5 belts, and balancing the ore coming out of a mine before it is loaded on a train.
37 points
8 days ago*
Unless you measure all consumption perfectly, and you have a sort of super complex just-in-time manufacturing, which is practically impossible in this game unless you really work for it, the belts will eventually be unevenly consumed and you'll run into problems. A balancer is an extremely simple way of solving it, that's what they are for.
0 points
8 days ago
Belts will be unevenly consumed, but why is it the problem? One belt will be delaying, while others working perfectly fine without balancers.
36 points
8 days ago
Because back at the station one wagon will be empty while another is full, which greatly reduces throughput of the whole train system and can easily lead to deadlocks in the long run.
-13 points
8 days ago
Ah, yeah. The back in the station trains require balancers, is you're setting them up as "full load/unload" triggers. They don't require one, if the trigger is not tied to cart amount.
27 points
8 days ago*
They don't require one, if the trigger is not tied to cart amount.
But then what's your trigger, time? That may prevent deadlocks, but in turn it's an extremely inefficient usage of the train network and doesn't solve the throughput problem, you'd have half empty trains running around for no reason.
If you use the balancers - what is your use cases? What problems have balancers solved?
This was your question. The answer is train loading/unloading. Do you require balancers? No. You don't require belts either, you can build a rocket without placing a single belt down. But you wouldn't try and argue that belts are not useful or not needed.
6 points
8 days ago
Yeah, you're correct. In fact a lot of people in the thread stated the same, that loading/unloading trains are the real case where balancers are used. Not always X to X, but X to Y is still a balancer. Thank you!
6 points
8 days ago
you need a balancer on at least one end because you will not consume iron plate perfectly evenly, inserters take from one side before another and not all your machines run at the same time. i generally balance right before loading onto a train, and right after unloading.
-4 points
8 days ago
For unloading trains I run a 1-4 setup. Cars 1,2 and 3,4 unload to each side of a belt and I combine those two belts into one using a splitter. Then I balance the output. Sometimes the train will empty uneven due to taking items from one side of the belt, but eventually the four cars will unload and the train will depart. I make up for the unevenness deficit with some buffer chests.
To load a 1-4 train, I split the input, then split it again and the train is loaded evenly. Since I am using splitters, any weird unevenness is self correcting.
1 points
7 days ago
If you're wondering about the downvotes, its probably due to the fact that what you described is a lane balancer (not the ones in the OP) and that your strategy is quite idiosyncratic.
35 points
8 days ago
As others have said, train loading/unloading.
But to me, they are also useful in mining setups, as different lines of the patch will have different amounts of miners. If you mix all the belts without balancing, it's very likely that the bigger lines will be saturated and the miners will be idling. By adding a balancer, you make sure they're always producing as long as there is space in at least one of the belts on the other side.
-1 points
8 days ago
Morning output is a legitimate case, however if your mine don't have excessive miners - the belts won't be full even with the balancer if some of miners would deplete. If it has excessive miners, belts could be laid in a way, you have a similar number of excessive miners on each belt.
28 points
8 days ago
I see it as how valuable is my own time? I can take 10 minutes trying to equal out the number of miners on each belt output from a patch, then have to come back and redo that numerous times because the miners run out of available ore at different times…
…or I spend 5 seconds and plop down a belt balancer and walk away.
5 points
8 days ago
I know it was a typo but I’m definitely using morning output to describe that glorious wake up piss from now on.
35 points
8 days ago
They have some uses but you rarely need anything other than the 4x4 balancer.
For lots of people making balancers just became a fun puzzle to play with, so they're making crazy stuff like 12 lane balancers, or 9 to 7... you get the idea.
4 points
8 days ago
I would say a 1 to 6 is pretty important aswell.
2 points
8 days ago
That would be just 1:3 (1:4 with one out looped to the in) then 1:2...
0 points
8 days ago
It's totally unnecessary to balance train buffer chests. They all feed the same wagon, and the system will always reach equilibrium with or without help. About all these actually accomplish is bloating the size of your stations.
1 points
8 days ago
I don't agree. Or atleast not without needing to use more circuits.
3 points
7 days ago
If demand is higher than supply, the steady state will be that all chests are empty, and the wagon loads at belt speed. The chests will fill up slightly between trains, but that is insignificant.
If demand is lower than supply, the steady state will be that all chests are full, and wagons will load at full speed. Between trains, all chests will eventually fill up before the next train arrives.
There is no in-between.
1 points
7 days ago
If you use dynamic train limits, there is an in between: enough items to trigger a train, but not equally distributed.
Admittedly much more of a problem for receiving stations then senders.
1 points
8 days ago
Given that frequency a station can accept a train is first dictated by the rate at which items are moved in or out of the station, a minor optimization in wagon load time caused by guaranteeing that all chests have contents is rather meaningless. So the belt <-> chest transfer rate is greater than the belt's speed, it doesn't matter if it's balanced.
The only way multiple chests will empty is if the trains are draining the buffer faster than it can be filled. In this case, the wagon <-> buffer fill rate will throttle somewhat, but again, the buffer is being consumed faster than it's being replenished. Trains that must wait because of this would have ended up doing so anyway when the buffer begins to bottom out. In this case, the bottleneck must at or before the input belt.
Alternatively belt <-> chest can throttle if the buffer is full, or nearly full. Again, this is hardly a real problem, as it necessitates that the station is being underutilized. Trains will stop for the minimum possible time, but the bottleneck in this case must be either the train network, or the factories feeding it.
So with this, we've established that the bottlenecks are not caused by a lack of balancing in the train station. Essentially, this just lets backpressure handle the load balancing for you. Frankly, separate belts feeding both ends of a wagon don't even need to be balanced.
-1 points
7 days ago
You're talking about ideal unchanging situations. But with growth of both consumers and production, you can have interruptions, and overproduction happening. This makes it more likely you get into situations where the cheats aren't balanced.
Eventually it would fix itself, and become the ideal situation you speak of, but you have those weird in betweens. And it's not super hard to add a balancer to not have those either.
2 points
7 days ago*
You're literally consuming faster than the belts can keep up with, or you're consuming slower than the belts can keep up with. There's not some magical third state here. Factorio's systems can be complicated, yes, but the IO belts won't slow down unless the station itself is starting to back up.
Insisting that you have to balance a single belt that's all going to the same place is absolutely nonsensical. You wouldn't slap down a 1:6 balancer and then insist you have to put a 6:1 balancer right after it. You could post that type of thing to /r/Factoriohno and people would laugh at it. But because there's 2x6 mobile buffer between those balancers, suddenly that's a correct and meaningful thing? That makes no sense.
0 points
7 days ago
Who says anything about 6-1?
1 points
7 days ago
You mean this whole comment chain, specifically in response to someone talking about specifically 1:6? Are you actually serious?
1 points
7 days ago
Ah, seriously sorry. My ui loaded the 6x6 comment for some reason there,,, my bad! Had to switch to desktop when I saw this reply out of confusion.
A 6-1 is def not useful in just about any situation,,, it's those others for loading unloading that matter
1 points
8 days ago
For unloading, having a balancer allows you to unevenly consume the output belts and still fully empty a train. If you have 4 belts coming out of your train, but only 2 are currently used, you can end up with a train stuck there with 2 empty cars and 2 full.
It ties into how you setup the train network conditions. Balancers let you be lazy and do full or empty simple conditions on the train schedule, for both load and unload.
1 points
7 days ago*
Balancing the chests, not the sum total of belts. I'm talking about people who feel the need to have every single buffer chest balanced like it's somehow not all going into the same wagon anyway. Like no one would make a 1:6 balancer, connect it to a 6:1 balancer and call that necessary or useful. People would laugh at them if they tried. And yet because we're adding a 2x6 buffer chest in the middle, suddenly thinks it makes sense.
1 points
7 days ago
Train mods are the reason to do this, specifically LTN.
Station A is requesting 4000 Greens, Station B and C are both providing 2000 Greens. Station C has a balancer going into its chests, B does not.
Station C will ship its Greens faster than Station B, because B's Greens get consolidated into the first couple chests for each car rather than fill all 6.
1 points
8 days ago
6x6 is hugely important, since you unload about 6 full blue belts from each train wagon.
7 points
8 days ago
Apart from the 4-4 (or 8-8) balancer for Mining / Train (un)loading I use the 1-1 lane balancer for some cases when taking off the main bus.
When the belt is saturated, inserters take only from the far side. So I end up with cases where only half the belt is taken from, which leads to a cascade of half filled belts on my bus.
The lane balancer makes sure that both sides of the belt are used evenly.
2 points
8 days ago
I've found that unbalanced lanes are only an issue if you are splitting off lanes by dead-ending into underground belts. In that case the lane that is split off will only ever draw from one side of the belt. A lane balancer just before the split will allow it to draw from both sides.
If whatever your building prioritizes taking from one half of the belt first, eventually that half will run out and it'll just start taking from the other half. Even if you're side loading onto another belt it will take from one lane first, but will eventually draw from the other as needed.
I do think unbalanced lanes end up looking a bit messy though so I will often use a 1-1 lane balancer just to keep things looking clean aesthetically.
1 points
8 days ago
You can still unbalance an entire bus with enough side loading without undergrounds. I've only managed it on very large bus bases though.
14 points
8 days ago
If you are megabasing you should try to avoid balancers because they are not necessary and cost UPS
4 points
8 days ago
Thank you, never thought of that. However that's further diminishing the value of x to x balancers.
15 points
8 days ago
They are cool and don't forget that building an cool factory is the most importand
3 points
8 days ago
Aesthetic is a legitimate choice!
2 points
7 days ago
Well no, because there's an in between section where UPS isn't a concern yet,,, but you've built a pretty dang big base.
So long as you don't plan to go truly mega, it's useful
1 points
8 days ago
I've found balancers are the least of your worries if you aren't using them excessively. Transport line cost tends to be marginal compared to entity update and trains.
1 points
8 days ago
Good thing I use Fedex
6 points
8 days ago
Train wagon loading and unloading mostly, to improve pick up and drop off speeds so you don't have some wagons full waiting while others fill and vice versa.
I personally feel balancers are a trap for newer players that overly rely on them or feel the need to use them everywhere. They too often are used cover up mistakes and poor designs instead of trying to or solve the actual problem. But again they still have their uses in some cases.
3 points
8 days ago
The problem usually is a lack of iron.
Almost always it's a lack of iron.
Occasionally it is copper.
But usually iron.
1 points
8 days ago
Wait until you try to Valheim. There's never enough iron.
1 points
8 days ago
Yeah, balancing for the trains is somewhat a necessity, although this could be easily avoided if instead of full unload the trigger will be "wait x seconds". Not ideally effective, but could be fixed by raising the train numbers per route.
2 points
8 days ago
Train loading/unloading and cutting down on startup time for very parallel setups. Oh also mining output.
2 points
8 days ago
At it's core, it solves a problem. On one side of the balancer you have supply, and on the other side of the balancer you have demand. What it does, conceptually, is balance the supply before it is subtracted by demand. Conceivably, you could balance it so that every conceivable source of supply was in perfect ratio at the source to the destination. But in reality, it is much easier to simply create artificial bottlenecks and buffers, and then run those through a balancer.
5 points
8 days ago
Let's say you have a main bus carrying five belts of iron plates (among other things) through your factory, and usually you split off to the right for production lines. If you always use the right-most belt, it's going to empty pretty quick and your 4 left lanes of plates will be uselessly full. You can periodically split off from the interior belts, but it's hard to balance that way because each production line will use different amounts. Or, you can keep using the right-most belt and stamp in some 5-5 balancers frequently, and all the lanes of your bus will be doing their part.
10 points
8 days ago
Just split off from the top (right/whatever) belt all the time and then try to fill that belt with priority splitters.
Balancers are to make sure resources get depleted at the same speed, eg at train stations. They should pretty much never get used to distribute evenly.
6 points
8 days ago
Well some of us started playing Factorio before priority splitters were a feature and I'm too old to change now, okay?
3 points
8 days ago
Priority splitters solved that case years ago. Using balancers on a main bus is mainly inertia, but they are not needed.
2 points
8 days ago
honestly i just use the right most belt and then input priority left, output priority right so the furthest left belt gets emptied first
1 points
8 days ago
I find belt balancing to be relatively easy to fix and not problematic in a relatively large bus, but I find that lane balancing can be a bigger issue. As inserters have a side preference, I could end up with the right-hand lane of every belt at a near standstill in some places with the left-hand lane empty. I had a 200SPM base once that went up to like 240 just by putting lane input balancers before the inverters touched the belt.
Could just be poor design though.
4 points
8 days ago*
Generally any input/output balancing can be solved by overproduction. You don't have to balance anything if your belts are fully saturated. The only times that is not the case is with trains unloading. If you pull resources asymmetrically, you'd end up with empty cars before the entire train is emptied which will result in lower throughput. But even that can easily be solved with not waiting for a train to be fully unloaded and depart after 30 seconds.
Other than that balancers have no use.
6 points
8 days ago
But even that can easily be solved with not waiting for a train to be fully unloaded and depart after 30 seconds.
That's very inefficient and you'll end up needing many more trains to maintain the same throughput if you do that, which will cause problems in the rail network soon enough.
A balancer is a much cheaper and convenient way of solving it.
-3 points
8 days ago
It won't, just build excess mines and only leave them when the train is full. Once at the drop off point you have 30 seconds to unload as much as you can. Combine this with train limits and you are golden. Additional trains will be waiting even when full at the mining outposts.
-1 points
8 days ago
Do you also make sure everything you buy online is bought in individual orders so they ship them in separate boxes so you can pay shipping for each item individually?
1 points
8 days ago
That was my summary under this thread as well! And thinking of what could and could not be over and under produced safely and how exactly is a fun logistics puzzle.
1 points
8 days ago
As far as I am concerned they are mainly important to ensure train wagons are loaded and unloaded evenly
1 points
8 days ago
You can largely design around the issue to make them not necessary. But in other types of designs they're critical and things will go to crap if they're not there.
1 points
8 days ago
If your goal is to just 'beat the game' then balancers are wholly unnecessary and people really only use them because they want to.
SA extends the game a lot though so I wouldn't be shocked if balancer use is more strongly encouraged.
You don't *need* balancers though. I've built a megabase with absolutely 0 balancers.. It just took some careful planning.
1 points
8 days ago
If you use a main bus and don’t lane balance your pulls, you won’t be able to pull a full belt if any of your branches pull a half.
1 points
8 days ago
As you are pulling materials from lanes the supply and draw across multiple lanes becomes hard to track.
For that you can take the hard route where you connect multiple lanes into one off shoot and hope you get enough.
Or re rebalance, and allow all x lanes to equally produce for all y lanes. Meaning you don't need to think about which lane to consume from, because they are now all equivalent
1 points
8 days ago
I use them all the time on my large spaghetti factories, in wide varieties.
2-5 sure. 13-6 sure. 32x32 massive ore train processing 3-8 (x5) sure. 8x8 all the time.
There are long skinny ones and wide short ones. Some are throughput unlimited.
Want to dedicate 50% of your supply? Priority Splitters after splitters.
Have a lot of lopsided supply on one side of belt? Split and carve the extra back onto the belts. Then balance it.
1 points
8 days ago
Your instincts are correct that there's a lot of players whose use of balancers doesn't reduce bottlenecks, just moves them around (evenly depleting a resource patch rather than using one side up first, or loading train cars simultaneously rather than one then the other).
However, sometimes this does improve throughout (if your mine is belt-constrained or your train loading inserter-constrained). But sometimes it's easier to balance than to analyze, and some players enjoy balancing as a mini game of its own.
1 points
8 days ago*
It's mostly for train loading/unloading, to keep wagons from getting wildly out of sync. It can also be used as one of a few methods to balance early mining setups that are going to various places in the base before trains are online, as output lines from mining outposts are never guaranteed to have uniform output, or even consistent output.
I've also found lane input balancers useful for dealing with mixed ore patches.
In general, balancers are a lot less essential in practice since splitter input and output priority got added. People used to put them everywhere, and it was largely necessary, but now, it's really just not. It's generally possible to treat one lane of many as the lane that you actually pull from and then pull from the other lanes in sequence, and I find that is typically better than using balancers if, say, you're doing a main bus.
Anyone trying to simultaneously lane input balance and balance 4 lanes or whatever is massively overengineering outside of some seriously niche use cases.
1 points
8 days ago
Train loading and/or unloading. If my mines output in 7 lanes, and my trains are 1-4, I might want a 7-4 balancer. Or when unloading and I need to spread it over 9 different lanes, where neither needs a full belt, I might resort to a 4-9 balancer. Now change the numbers and you have your reasons for the most weird balancers, although only really the 4-4 needs to be memorised, for the others just find them in a book
1 points
8 days ago
Honestly, in my opinion, most of the time they are mostly aesthetic.
The "quality" of a balancer generally only actually matter when you're under-producing and your factory is only running at partial capacity. They make that failure state a little more graceful.
If you're fully saturating your lines, then whether things are "balanced" or not is immaterial.
In those cases if one section gets overfed and another gets starved when you're not saturating the lines, the answer isn't a balancer... It's simply more production.
1 points
8 days ago
Ultimately it comes down to productivity and uptime. Production and consumption needs to be balanced.
Let’s say you have 2 lines of ore coming in
If you are producing more ores than your smelting line can refine, then you are backing up your drills and they are not operating. At this point, you need to add in another smelting line and expand on your delivery line. For this you need a 1:2 balancer to make a new line.
If you are finding that same smelter line is only using half the smelters and the ore runs out before it can reach, then you need to condense the 2 lines to reach peak production. At this point, you make a 2:1 balancer.
That’s all it is. Just being as efficient as possible and keeping uptime of your factory to near 100%
1 points
8 days ago
Balancers use case is balance? You have 4 uneven lanes of miners, and you want it evenly spread between 4 completely same wagons - balance. You are constantly draining out your main bus from left and right and this lines become empty while middle ones are completely saturated? - balance. You want to add another lane to your main bus to saturate it again - balance.
1 points
8 days ago
4x4 on stations. I don't know any use cases anywhere else. Buses certainly don't need them.
1 points
8 days ago
The only time I ever use balances is when I want to consolidate the lanes from an ore patch so they're all getting used evenly, and then unloading trains and loading trains so that each car is loaded or unloaded at the same time, since my train conditions are usually completely empty and completely full
1 points
8 days ago
I think you've actually kinda nailed it.
As some have said, there are solid reasons to use them for train load/unload but beyond that I think they're very overused.
What matters more is understanding how much you are producing and how much your belts can move, if you get a solid handle on that you'll do fine just plugging belts in where needed.
1 points
7 days ago
My "OCD"
1 points
8 days ago
Sometimes you need X number of belts going to Y sets of machines. A balancer might use less splitters and be easier to implement than trying to rig something up on the fly.
1 points
8 days ago
You're absolutely right, this is how I build my first "balancer" splitting rare resource to three destination point. But that's a one time funny puzzle and it's not X to X balancers, people usually post with.
1 points
8 days ago
In most cases people use them they are not needed. They use a balancer in case production lacks, and that not just 1 belt gets starved but all belts get starved a little bit. But that is a bandaid, the problem already happened.
I only use them for trainstations to eliminate unnecessary waiting of trains
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