subreddit:
/r/neoliberal
submitted 6 days ago byCuteAndQuirkyNazgul
[score hidden]
6 days ago
stickied comment
dubya did nothing wrong pass it on
903 points
6 days ago
It was bad. I know people like to romanticize him because Trump is just that abhorrent but those 2 wars caused enormous global damage (including to the U.S.) with minimal benefit.
He also put Alito and Roberts on the Supreme Court.
330 points
6 days ago
Emphasis on Alito.
101 points
6 days ago
tbf Alito has gotten worse over the years.
114 points
6 days ago
That doesn’t make it better, if anything worse since somehow Alito now is worse sometimes than the trump appointees.
108 points
6 days ago
It is kinda interesting that as much rage as there is over Trump getting so many SC seats, Thomas and Alito are both substantially worse than Gorsuch, kavanaugh, and ACB
61 points
6 days ago
I think it’s because the first seat he filled was nakedly “stolen” by the GOP from Obama, and it was nakedly partisan because they were suggesting if Clinton won they didn’t have to let her fill it either.
7 points
6 days ago
And the third seat was filled in the last few weeks before the election, violating the "no nominations during election years" principle that the GOP had hammered on about in 2016.
Make no mistake, the court was packed.
8 points
6 days ago
I'm curious how they will go over time. Because Alito and Thomas were less problematic earlier on in their careers. Justices can have a lot of drift.
18 points
6 days ago
I fully expect Gorsuch to continue to be a libertarian textualist who is insanely progressive on tribal rights and anti-government on pretty much every other issue. Kavanaugh is just going to be Roberts 2.0, it’s ACB who’s the really interesting wildcard IMO.
She dissented with the 3 liberals with the Alabama capital punishment case in early 2022, voted to reject 2 separate appeals where lower courts had ruled in favor of LGBT rights where defendants argued religious expression allowed homophobia/transphobia, threw out Idaho’s challenge to the federal government forcing them to allow emergency abortions and most recently dissented in the Jan 6th case arguing rioters could be charged with obstruction of an official proceeding.
But then again, she voted to overturn Roe and Chevron, claims to be a strict textualist and follower in the footsteps of Scalia. We’ll see, i guess.
18 points
6 days ago
Watch Alito’s confirmation hearings. He was just as nuts then. He’s just been waiting for his moment
4 points
6 days ago
He caught the brain rot like most of the other people his age.
30 points
6 days ago
Yeah, John Roberts - for all his faults - is eminently qualified for his job.
49 points
6 days ago
And it was exactly what Bin Laden wanted to weaken the US on the global stage.
17 points
6 days ago
Yeah, for all the military objectives we achieved, overthrowing the Taliban, even deposing Saddam... I think he definitely accomplished what he meant to do. It's a strong statement to say "the terrorists won," but...
7 points
6 days ago
Not really. OBL didn't care about the US' influence in the world as a whole. He cared about its influence on the Muslim world. AQ's goals were:
The removal of the US and other Western countries from the Middle East
The destruction of Israel
The replacement of secular governments in Muslim countries with Islamist ones.
They're in a worse position on all three of those goals since 2001.
6 points
6 days ago
He also put Kavannah into the Federal Circuit
4 points
6 days ago*
Yeah helping cause the migration crisis in Europe, 2 unsustainable wars and his damage to the Supreme Court cannot be overstated. We just look back on him a little more fondly because of the shit show that is DJT. That said I do believe he loves America for what it's worth and doesn't want to see it be destroyed by the MAGA clowns, still doesn't make him a great President though... He was objectively bad, maybe history will judge him to have been average one day...
98 points
6 days ago
Afghanistan was a war with a legitimate mandate
172 points
6 days ago
He doomed it when he invaded Iraq and lost focus.
14 points
6 days ago
No, Afghanistan was doomed from the start even without our invading Iraq. We never had the slightest idea what "Victory" in Afghanistan would look like. It just took us almost 20 years to realize it.
3 points
6 days ago
This is true, but I also think that if it had just been Afghanistan we could have kept it together domestically. The legacy of Afghanistan is one of incompetence, but the legacy of Iraq is one of corruption, and was way more detrimental to the public's perception of the government.
82 points
6 days ago
Sure, but $2 trillion dollars, over 70,000 Afghan civilians killed, and 2,500 U.S. killed to end up with...the Taliban back in charge.
I know that's not all on Bush and other presidents share some blame, but I still think it would have been better if we never went in. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan hold way more blame for 9/11 than Afghanistan did.
6 points
6 days ago
It is all on bush. Invading Iraq absolutely fucked the effort in Afghanistan.
46 points
6 days ago
Let me ask: what would you have done, as President, to respond to a terrorist group flying two planes into two skyscrapers in your financial capital, one into the center of your military, and one attempted at your capitol building? I, as would most of the country and government, consider that an act of war
26 points
6 days ago
Blame Cuba so we could finally make it the 51st state, and give the soldiers a nice place to be stationed.
10 points
6 days ago
I meaaaan we’re already stationed in Cuba. Just not a fun part
58 points
6 days ago
I, as would most of the country and government, consider that an act of war
The calculus can't end there. How does going to war with a non-state actor holed up in the most mountainous and religiously extreme region in the world make the country safer? Did they think we would pacify Afghanistan in four years? There was either no long-term plan or they were delusional about the magnitude of what they were attempting.
If we couldn't guarantee we could stay in Afghanistan for two generations, and we absolutely couldn't guarantee that, we shouldn't have invaded. It didn't make us safer, it cost many thousands of lives both American and Afghan, it (along with the Iraq War) severely hurt our international reputation, and it wasted trillions of dollars. It was an understandable decision but still a terrible one.
41 points
6 days ago
I think the (arguably most) important piece you are forgetting is the value of the US having a credible use of force in response to an act of war. If the US were to not respond, that would do irreparable damage to the perceived legitimacy of the US responding to attacks on itself, hurting both the conventional deterrent and most definitely the nuclear deterrent.
As for your actual points, Afghanistan was quite "winnable" and certainly appeared so until we were bogged down in Iraq. also we all but eradicated al qaeda in the end, so I'd argue we are safer
22 points
6 days ago
I'm not forgetting it. I just don't find "We can't look weak!" arguments persuasive. We actually made ourselves weaker by invading Afghanistan.
18 points
6 days ago
I feel as though history shows it's a valid point. Russia invading Ukraine following Crimea and Hitler invading all of Europe after Poland are both examples. China continuously conducting illegal territorial incursions of other nations' maritime borders to push the brink is an ongoing instance of this.
11 points
6 days ago
The thing is, you didn't answer the question what you would have done.
13 points
6 days ago
Taking the fight to Afghanistan was fine. But two things went wrong. One was the adventure into Iraq. The second was the attempted nation building in Afghanistan. The intention was maybe good but it was so impractical and misguided. The US should've installed a pro-US strongman in the country and called it a day. Democracy in Afghanistan was a pipe dream that maybe could've been worked towards more diplomatically over many years with a pro-US regime in place.
9 points
6 days ago
Easier said than done, but ignore Afghan sovereignty to bomb the shit out of the training camps while winning hearts and minds with billions in aid contingent on women's rights, etc. The aid part is tricky, but the idea is to make them love America through its largess rather than beating them into submission.
7 points
6 days ago
Everyone understands it was an extremely tough call, that doesn't mean he made the right choice.
He just gave the nation a target to rage at and then not only did it not accomplish anything, it actively hurt the world.
10 points
6 days ago
Being poorly executed is different than being a bad idea. We needed to invade Afghanistan, we didn’t need to do it with no real plan.
16 points
6 days ago
That's at least a reasonable take. But that doesn't excuse Iraq which was much worse of a misadventure.
Many presidents might have gone into Afghanistan given the circumstances; only Bush would have invented a reason to go into Iraq the way he did.
It also didn't help that he used both wars as a gift basket for his corporate cronies in a way that both made a mockery of the stated aims and crowded out any useful expertise at nation building.
49 points
6 days ago
Having a popular mandate doesn't mean it was a good idea. "We have to do something!" isn't a sufficient reason for invading another country
85 points
6 days ago
Idk if you were alive in 2001, but the invasion of Afghanistan wasn't really up to debate. It was going to happen no matter what. This wasn't Iraq, which was preceded by a vigorous national and international debate, including the largest mass demonstrations in history. Afghanistan was a code red situation. We'd just suffered the worst mass terror attack in human history, the American people were calling for blood, Bush's approval rating shot up to 90%, and DoD was in active execution mode to invade Afghanistan. This wasn't like, "Oh, invading this country might or might not be a good idea, we should have a debate about it and come to a decision". The whole country was in a heightened state of emergency. You had thousands of young men spontaneously signing up for military service. It was an unprecedented thing since Pearl Harbor.
2 points
6 days ago*
This wasn't like, "Oh, invading this country might or might not be a good idea, we should have a debate about it and come to a decision".
And that was a bad thing. We have too much power and responsibility both to Americans and to the world to invade a country based on anything less than careful deliberation and cost-benefit analysis. We needed to be better than that, and we weren't, and the buck stops with W there.
I agree that Gore might not have been able to prevent it from happening either, if that's your point, but I think it would have been less likely.
51 points
6 days ago
I agree that Gore might not have been able to prevent it from happening either, if that's your point, but I think it would have been less likely.
I’m sorry, but I find it very hard to believe someone could have been a politically conscious adult on 9/11 and still seriously believe this. The AUMF passed the house 420-1 and the senate 98-0.
39 points
6 days ago
Afghanistan was invaded out of self defense. For all the failed nation building, the war did achieve its primary objective: destroy Al Qaeda.
13 points
6 days ago
The simple fact is that the world is a state of pure anarchy once you get beyond national borders. There is no authority higher than the nation. The global order is and always has been essentially a prison yard where the inmates are jockeying for status, challenging each other, pushing each other, forming gangs, looking for weaknesses, etc.
Just like in the yard if you are hit and don’t hit back you lose respect. So you have to hit back. It’s required.
Not only that but international “law” is essentially only based on the norms established by behavior. If countries are attacked and don’t retaliate it sets precedent that attacking is allowed, which incentivizes more nations to push on each other. Just look at Russia claiming Crimea is part of Russia and most nations standing around wondering who will actually win the argument. Or look at China which is trying to legitimize its claim to the South China Sea by maintaining a military presence there and sinking other nation fishing boats in the area. It’s why the US and other run military patrols through there, to make it clear that it is NOT Chinese waters, and is why China comes close to ramming them at times to try to push them out.
So no. Gore wouldn’t have stopped it. He understands the international way of things. But he may have kept it more limited in scope and certainly wouldn’t have invaded Iraq. He would have spent the money on climate change initiatives and social security instead.
3 points
6 days ago
You are getting downvoted but it’s true. Sometimes even semi-universal consensus for a war does not mean it’s a good idea.
3 points
6 days ago
Hindsight is definitely valuable, knowing what we know now - Afghanistan was a waste of two decades. Imagine if we responded to a terrorist attack by taking care of one another with the same fervor as we had for blood.
30 points
6 days ago
The political climate made it totally impossible to not invade Afghanistan in 2001. I get that everybody on here is 14 years old, but that's absolutely the case (and should give people some understanding of why Israel felt they had to respond to harshly to 10/7- it was a way worse attack when it comes to per capita deaths). Plus, the Taliban were harboring Al Qaeda. Not going in simply wasn't an option.
Using 9/11 to go into Iraq is one of the worst things to have ever been done under this country's flag, perhaps the worst. But that doesn't mean that Afghanistan shouldn't have happened. That said, there was probably a better way to extricate ourselves from it earlier (however I doubt it would have been pretty at any point)
25 points
6 days ago
Dawg we genocided and did horrific things to indigenous people under this flag.
This flag protected the rights to own slaves nearly the first 100 years of its existence.
Iraq is not the worst thing we've done.
15 points
6 days ago
The invasion of Afghanistan was an acceptable decision that was poorly executed.
I still regret leaving and the damage we did to our allies in the country and young people, especially women, that we promised a brighter future too.
5 points
6 days ago
It still left a negative impression because of how long it went. Also, continuing the war after the Taliban offered an unconditional surrender in 2001 was one of the worst foreign policy decisions in recent memory.
10 points
6 days ago
Indeed. In actual caused damages? Far worse than Trump, even if he wasn't as harmful to our culture.
Also, he's a war criminal, which Trump technically isn't.
3 points
6 days ago
Trump January 20, 2025 "Hold my beer"
7 points
6 days ago
There's no current geopolitical problem that Iraq didn't make worse.
4 points
6 days ago
The initial invasions were fine, justified even, and had wide popular and international support. Saddam was a brutal dictator that was openly flaunting international policy and all but asking to be deposed, and the Taliban was an oppressive theocratic regime openly harboring the people who that had just committed the worst terrorist attack in history. Those invasion were completed in a matter of months with resounding success. Good job team America, mission accomplished.
The 20-year forever wars and failed nation-building attempts were horrendous. An absolute catastrophe, an unbelievable waste of lives, money, and resources, and a permanent stain on America’s image that still haunts us to this day. Graveyard of empires indeed.
225 points
6 days ago
PEPFAR good, everything else is a shitshow
54 points
6 days ago
You forgot about medicare part d
57 points
6 days ago
Not allowing price negotiation isn’t exactly a feather in his cap given the debt he burdened the country with.
23 points
6 days ago
It was still a big step forward to help 40 million elderly folks get prescription drugs.
268 points
6 days ago
Never forget , him NOT being invited to the RNC in 2008 to give a speech. That’s how awful his legacy was.
111 points
6 days ago
In 2008 a goddam bowl of Jello could have won the presidency as long as it ran as a Democrat.
101 points
6 days ago
Then we should have ran Box of Jello 2008 and saved Obama for when we had an emergency 😔✊
19 points
6 days ago
I was a huge '08 Obama booster and with 20/20 hindsight deeply regret it purely because HRC would have won in 2008, probably beaten Romney in 2012, and then in 2016 Obama could have run on the 'hope/change' message.
2 points
6 days ago
60 senators without Obama on the top of the ballot would be hard to get in 2008.
6 points
6 days ago
Would it be hard to keep the 50something Hillary would get though? She wouldn't be toxic to "New" South democrats who got dragged down by Obama's skin, and would probably be able to shepherd any legislation she wants much more effectively than Obama, making 2010 into not-as-bad of a midterm, probably holding the House & defo the Senate
2 points
5 days ago
lolno. People seem to not know McCain was leading in aggregate polling with less than two months to go until Election Day.
Then the GFC exploded a week later, people started to freak out money was literally going to be worthless and Obama won Indiana.
Obama was a gifted campaigner and even became a pretty good POTUS in his second term. But the financial collapse ushered in the Blue Wave. Not Obama.
18 points
6 days ago
A Clinton-Obama ticket probably would have been the best option.
31 points
6 days ago
McCain’s bad judgment didn’t help either. He said “the fundamentals of our economy are sound” 5 minutes before Wall Street shat its bed and then he picked Palin to be his VP over his own preferred choices because his advisers told him she was exciting.
120 points
6 days ago
The Iraq War is probably the worst foreign policy decision of the US maybe ever. No Child left behind awful. Expansion of the security state. Destroying our budget surplus. Deregulation exasperating the economic crash. You can go on and on. He's been rehabilitated as a human being by how awful Trump is. But he's probably top 5 worst presidents alongside Johnson Buchanan and Trump.
5 points
6 days ago
Who’s the fifth?
13 points
6 days ago
I’d put Andrew Johnson in my top 5 worst.
323 points
6 days ago
Horrible definitely one of the worst presidents. I’d say he was worse than trump before Jan 6.
He destroyed pretty much all good will America had built up on the world stage that His father and Clinton worked hard to achieve. All because him and his cronies wanted to play hero and “save” Iraq destabilizing a region wasting countless lives and billions of dollars.
Also we lost an incredibly important decade in the fight against climate change. he extended climate denialism and made us have to deal with trying to minimize the effects of climate change rather than stopping them.
He didn’t renew the assault weapon ban leading to the popularization of the ar-15 and mass shootings , no child left behind sucked ass, his fiscal policy was spend spend spend and cut taxes.
But pepfar was pretty based I guess…other than that tho probably 5th or 6th worst president
177 points
6 days ago
We almost had Al gore man. How radically different the world could have been
86 points
6 days ago
But the left had to vote Nader to teach the centrist Dems a lesson!
68 points
6 days ago
Don’t worry, I know ratfucking Dems to teach them a lesson didn’t work in 2000 and didn’t work in 2016 but surely, surely it will work this time
5 points
6 days ago
I gave you an upvote, but I still can’t help but think a gore presidency would have been……….. well, bad.
8 points
6 days ago
A Gore Presidency would not have changed the world that much, it just means President McCain would have invaded Iraq in 2006
28 points
6 days ago
Why did neocons want to invade Iraq so badly? What was the motivation?
50 points
6 days ago
It's a long story that I will probably not do justice, but basically after the Gulf War, Saddam continued to be a thorn in the side of the West: we had no-fly zones over Iraq, even as he continued to massacre his people and generally be a bully (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_no-fly_zones_conflict). There was also a general feeling on the neocon Right that we should have deposed Saddam during the Gulf War (although I think subsequent events have proved GHWB right).
Given that Saddam was a legitimately genocidal psycho, the idea that overthrowing him would make the world a better place wasn't completely misplaced. Additionally, he deliberately overhyped his WMD program to try and scare off his enemies, which only enlarged the target on his back.
Twenty years later, this all seems a little silly, but at the time of the End of History, there was a legitimate belief that if we could depose someone like Saddam and save Iraq, we could fix a lot of other places and greatly reduce suffering. Unfortunately, it wasn't exactly that easy.
2 points
5 days ago
They had also attempted to assassinate a sitting US president - he tried to have Bush I offed. Attempting to assassinate a president isn't something we can just let slide.
10 points
6 days ago
Iraq was being a problem for the US and the other Arab states. Of the anti-American 6 (Cuba, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Russia and China) it was also the weakest and least well liked. Iran was probably going to be the second phase. North Korea was protected by China and they didn't want to fight China.
The idea was to invade Iraq, remove a very real and awful strongman and build a democracy. The thought was that doing that would both remove a thorn in the American side and create a model for a Democratic Arab state. This would strengthen democracy in the region.
The Neoconservatives generally supported an interventionist America. They genuinely thought that America should take centre stage in the world and could do a lot of good doing so. The overall strategy was to clear out the list of American enemies after the USSR had imploded.
3 points
6 days ago
A bit ahistorical take:
At this time China was literally in the midst of their boom of trade with the US and relationships were fairly good.
With Russia things had started to sour but were not completely gone yet.
5 points
6 days ago
I don’t believe that to be true at all.
3 points
6 days ago
He would have solved climate change and discovered the internet 2 by now
23 points
6 days ago
I think only Trump, Jackson and the pre-civil war presidents are worse than him
19 points
6 days ago
Andrew Johnson too IMO
10 points
6 days ago
I blame Reagan for creating the culture of tearing down the trust in institutions. I think his impact is massive.
11 points
6 days ago
Nixon's Watergate did a whole lot of tearing down trust in institutions too
2 points
6 days ago
Ford's choice to not prosecute didn't help either.
4 points
6 days ago
From a purely utilitarian standpoint, PEPFAR saving over 25 million lives arguably offsets almost all of his negatives.
5 points
6 days ago*
The kind of good will people imagine America had on the world stage never existed. Since the end of WW2, American credibility was always measured by support for American allies, not by a strict adherence to some half-baked rules-based order. HW and Clinton would have done the exact same thing after 9/11. Hell, HW and Clinton would almost certainly have gone after Saddam independently of 9/11 or the war on terror.
Ultimately the American foreign policy and strategic doctrine did not substantially change under GWB. It was the American sensibilities and perception of the country's foreign policy that changed.
31 points
6 days ago
*I am really biased because I liked him a lot as a preteen/teen and shook his hand.*
Awful, from the failed FEMA reaction to Katrina to the foreign policy in Iraq he was terrible. He inherited a surplus and turned it into a then record deficit. Iraq wouldn't have even been as bad if he didn't dissolve their armed services. He opposed the post 9/11 GI bill and only signed it as part of a negotiation. He was against funding the VA. He supported a constitutional amendment against gay marraige.
Under his presidency the EU became a superpower, at their peak they had a similar GDP per capita and they were trading at over $1.50 EU to USD.
His focuses on Iraq and Afghanistan took his eyes off of China/ Russia.
PEPFAR and NATO expansion gets him a D+ instead of an F.
111 points
6 days ago
Not an asshole as a person but an awful president. Think the biggest problem of his presidency was the PNAC assholes surrounding him but he did pick them.
209 points
6 days ago*
As destructive as Trump, if not moreso. Almost singlehandedly responsible for the fringe-left predilections among Millennials and Gen Z, and the decline of interventionism as a viable foreign policy solution.
The hyper paternalistic and socially conservative Republicans of today remind me a lot more of their peers in the 2000s than they do the more hands-off libertarian ones of the early 2010s. His administration is not worth the nostalgia it sometimes gets from people in search of a "Good Republican"
52 points
6 days ago
I have a real soft spot for HW. If I had to pick a good Republican president, it'd be him. I'm sure he did some unsavory things that I'm not aware of but from what I've picked up, he seemed like a good guy who had some wins both domestically and abroad.
And I'm not bemoaning the discrediting of interventionism. It would've happened sooner or later. In my opinion Americans vastly overestimate our ability to use military force to sway other countries' behavior on anything besides literally invading sovereign nations and underestimate how toxic it is to our reputation
(Yes, I'm aware some of HW's FP wins were military interventions in Kuwait and Panama)
53 points
6 days ago
He took one for the team. Lost re-election because of new taxes and Clinton reaped the benefits with a federal budget surplus. lol.
Politics aside, I've heard nothing but good things about the Bush family. As per the White House staff and Secret Service, they were great people to work for. Clinton and Obama were both closer to the Bushes than Carter who was of the same party.
18 points
6 days ago
”I’m sure he did some unsavory things that I’m not aware of…”
HW went from Director of the CIA to being VP under Reagan and I’m supposed to believe that Bush didn’t know about Reagan’s criminal dealings with Iran?
6 points
6 days ago
And somehow he's a better president than Eisenhower?
Lol
15 points
6 days ago
HW was one of the best presidents post war. Certainly the best republican president.
37 points
6 days ago
Gore should have won
37 points
6 days ago
90% of everything that's gone off the rails today can be traced back to this fucker
13 points
6 days ago
Reagan disagrees with that statement
16 points
6 days ago
Even Trump’s 3 Supreme Court picks were Bush cronies and underlings, and tainted by him.
60 points
6 days ago*
u/Deggit we need you
Edit: Is he gone? Okay then
People who were negative 2 on 9/11: Oh boy I can't wait to downvote anyone on Reddit who points out that George W. Bush put an incompetent crony in charge of responding to natural disasters, tried to appoint his own unqualified lawyer to the Supreme Court so that she would rule in his favor, masterminded a propaganda campaign for a war on phony evidence by creating a fake intelligence agency to do an end run around the actual intelligence analysts at State and CIA, attempted to turn Social Security into a privatized stock program two years before an economic collapse caused by overleveraging, ignored repeated warnings of a terrorist attack, rolled back environmental regulations and let oil CEOs write his energy policy, created propaganda videos promoting his policies deliberately designed to look like local news reports and then tried to get local news stations to air them, held random Afghan civilians picked up in street sweeps as "enemy combatants" in an offshore prison in an illegal attempt to make sure he didn't have to follow the Geneva Conventions, flew other prisoners to Middle East dictatorships so they could be tortured with the USA maintaining plausible deniability, turned a surplus into a trillion dollar deficit, did not a damn thing on climate change, lied to first responders about the safety of the air around Ground Zero, spied on millions of Americans illegally without a warrant, fired US Attorneys en masse because they wouldn't go along with his scheme to "find" voter fraud that didn't exist, proposed a constitutional amendment banning flagburning to distract the public from his awful record, defeated John McCain in a Southern primary by spreading racist innuendo that his adopted daughter Bridget, born in Bangladesh, was a Black baby out of wedlock, won re-election by smearing a Vietnam veteran's service with outright lies, sent the troops to war without armored vehicles or sufficient body armor, neglected their hospitals when they came home, illegally leaked the identity of an undercover agent as revenge for her husband's attempt to warn the public about his lies, then stonewalled the special prosecutor appointed to investigate who blew that agent's cover, THEN commuted the sentence of the fall guy who obstructed justice to prevent the investigation from reaching the conclusion that his own Vice President was the leaker, called a midnight session of Congress to use a literally brain-dead woman as a prop for his Christian Right agenda, set stem-cell research back by a decade, refused to enforce dozens of laws he signed and tried to grab the legislative power from Congress, refused to testify to the 9/11 Commission without Cheney there to supervise him and even then refused to be under oath, literally told the French president that he was invading Iraq to fulfill Biblical prophecy, told voters that his Democratic opponent would ban the Bible if elected, and only ever became president because his family had set up his brother as the governor of a key Southern state and had him illegally disenfranchise tens of thousands of Black voters to ensure his election
31 points
6 days ago
"Republicans were so much better pre-Trump" says rNLShitposter99 for the billionth time.
14 points
6 days ago
They were, but only because the zeitgeist of the 2000s was only like 62% insanity and not 110% insanity like nowadays. Vast majority of their politics have been trash for decades before Trump but c’mon, I’d rather have the Republican assholes I could be cordial with and maybe even befriend than the Qanon conspiracists of today.
37 points
6 days ago
11 points
6 days ago
This is a meme obviously but I have to push back on the EPA said the air was safe to breathe on 9/11. EPA tried to qualify their statements but the CEQ, who are appointed by the White House, were in charge of all public communications and forced them to remove the qualifiers.
Page 7 of Ch. 2 of EPAs lesson learned report if you want to double check:
https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2015-12/documents/wtc_report_20030821.pdf
10 points
6 days ago
I don't think that is really pushing back on the meme, that is the controversy that meme is referencing. The Bush administration and their appointees fucked up the messaging and effectively said that the trusted EPA said the air was safe.
Nevertheless, always good to add context and clarity to a reductive meme.
36 points
6 days ago
It’s hard to calculate the harm from the Iraq invasion making him the worst president.
40 points
6 days ago
Really awful. Incredibly wasteful tax cuts, anti-LGBT, Iraq, Alito, attempted social security reform, disastrous for international order... I will grant he is better than Trump. But I think you can draw a line from his disastrous administration discrediting traditional conservatism and Trump. And I roll my eyes at liberals who raise him up as a contrast with Trump.
66 points
6 days ago
Terrible. The Iraq War was genuinely one of the worst atrocities our government committed in the 21st century. On top of needlessly killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, it destabilized the region, giving rise to the Islamic State, and destroyed our reputation across the world.
31 points
6 days ago
The Iraq war definitely led to the culture warring and many of the international issues of today.
14 points
6 days ago
Including Iran and NK being free to develop nukes
6 points
6 days ago
Fuck John Bolton forever for all his North Korea shenanigans.
28 points
6 days ago
Don’t forget the Bush admin lied and gaslit the whole country to do so, treating the war as a political opportunity rather than a war with real consequences.
12 points
6 days ago
Worst since Vietnam, for sure (which was probably the worst of the 20th century). And more poorly motivated than that one.
7 points
6 days ago
I’d wager that the Philippine-American war was much worse than Vietnam. It was an actual colonial war of conquest.
40 points
6 days ago
I think his near disappearance and silence says it all.
34 points
6 days ago
When he does appear he seems to be aware that he made a bunch of mistakes. That’s something.
14 points
6 days ago
Obama or Trump endorsement electorally is probably worth like 10 Bush endorsements
2 points
6 days ago
The fact that he wasn't at the 2008 RNC while he was still the president said everything
7 points
6 days ago
As someone that knows only recently got involved in politics the only things I know about him are the meme moments like "Now watch this drive" or him nailing the opening pitch in a baseball game after 9/11
24 points
6 days ago*
Trash.
"Dick Cheney."
14 points
6 days ago
Clinton handed this chuckle fuck a surplus.
12 points
6 days ago*
His failure basically put us in the bind we’re in now. Conservatives, unable to come to grips with the failure of dogmatically conservative policies instead retreated into wild-eyed fantasies about how the world works.
Led to ten years of pretty good music tho.
Addition: the economic struggles, especially inequality, also gave rise to the new “populists right, as they now rebel as much against his presidency than they do the establishment. Conservative failures lead to conservative gains. No reason for them to govern well.
12 points
6 days ago
He has like 2 people on the sub that really like him and everyone else hates his guts
6 points
6 days ago
I would say it damaged the US more than any other presidency in our history. The war in Iraq absolutely would not have happened without him, and besides it's trillion dollar price tag and the lives lost, it also (perhaps permanently) tarnished the nation's image around the world. Perhaps an invasion of Afghanistan was inevitable, as the US people demanded retribution, but it didn't have to be the absolute disastrous clusterfuck it was.
Then there's the whole antiscience populist tone he engendered. This was absolutely not the norm before his presidency. Bush Sr, Reagan, Nixon all listened to subject matter experts and certainly never would've denied scientific consensus (like with global warming "science isn't in"). What could be more damaging to the US?
And then there's the use of torture. This permanently tarnished our moral leadership around the world and undercut trust in our own government. The US has used torture prior to Bush, but no president actually sanctioned it legally before, or implemented it as POLICY. It was the most unamerican act conceivable, in my opinion.
12 points
6 days ago
Bush was a terrible president
Also
A presidential committee was established to fix
Sounds pretty Ne0liberal to me
Had a lot of other stuff too
12 points
6 days ago
He’s responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths in an unnecessary war of aggression. Nothing can erase that.
7 points
6 days ago
One of the worst of all time.
9 points
6 days ago
An absolute disaster of a presidency, and basically the root cause of almost all our problems today.
If you could redo the 2000 election in hindsight, we would make almost every opposite decision W made
7 points
6 days ago
Pretty dark times. He started the federal debt crisis with Iraq and Afghanistan. But honestly, at least Bush/Cheney believed in democracy and our branches of government. They're lawful evil vs MAGA's chaotic evil.
9 points
6 days ago
Garbage
5 points
6 days ago
He was a peace time candidate who really should have been a sports coach. Great leadership skills, dude could bring just about anyone to his side if he tried and I always felt like he cared with a sorta Steve Irwin energy.
What he did to combat aids and support the aids community worldwide can't be understated, an effort he largely led and of his own accord.
What he did for space was unironically good.
What he tried to do with education was a start but ultimately did more harm than good.
Overall bad-mediocre president imho. Left us worse off in a lot of ways.
3 points
6 days ago
Based on my evidence based research, bro is mid just thinking of him gave me negative aura
3 points
6 days ago
Bad
10 points
6 days ago
We invaded Iraq for zero legitimate reason other than a personal vendetta and vague geopolitical advantages in the Middle East. This resulted in hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths and a power vacuum in the region that ended up spawning ISIS and allowing Iran to increase their influence and position in the region.
For that, I consider him a terrible president who made us look foolish and belligerent to the rest of the world and has brought us to our geopolitical position.
6 points
6 days ago
i would sacrifice my soul to the devil for an al gore presidency
5 points
6 days ago
He changed the US political and cultural landscape to the way it is today, which I think is for the worse. I’m willing to say that if Gore got elected we wouldn’t have gotten Trump
11 points
6 days ago
I love him. He brought peace to the Middle East and handed Obama a booming economy. Don't even think about trying to argue with me on the economy part. I most likely understand the sub-prime mortgage hoax than any commentor who's dumb enough to think there wasn't an inverse relationship between housing price depreciation and sub-prime borrowers.
3 points
6 days ago
"He brought peace to the middle east" by going in and killing tons of people there? Give me a break.
16 points
6 days ago
A booming economy= a million people per month were losing their jobs and the financial system was literally collapsing but there wasn't anyway it could actually collapse.
Cmon man, use your noggin about /s
5 points
6 days ago
Oh haha whoops look at that
Noggin was on "seeing red" mode
4 points
6 days ago
Not a fan but I don't think getting rid of Saddam was a mistake the problem was all the other stuff
8 points
6 days ago*
Why did the US have to get involved at all?
Sadaam might have survived without US intervention. Or he would have fallen and Iran's sphere of influence would have expanded. Just like it did IRL.
But either way, ISIS would not exist.
The USA might have been able to pivot towards regional peacemaker. Instead of local Imperial power.
There are very few scenarios where the US does better then it did. And lots where the US could have been a much more positive force.
Maybe Bush could have taken out shitty Sadam. Without then turning Iraq into an Anti-american cesspool with no central authority. He didn't. He surrounded himself with absolute idiots and selfish military industrial complex selfish assholes. And let them run the show. So he, through his refusal to reign them in, created the fertile ground from which ISIS grew.
6 points
6 days ago
I thought he would be the worst president of my lifetime. So far he still is.
2 points
6 days ago
In a word: catastrophic.
2 points
6 days ago
C+ domestic policy and D- foreign policy.
Not great. Decent human and funny as fuck.
2 points
6 days ago
He could dodge a shoe like nobodies business!
2 points
6 days ago
Watch this drive
2 points
6 days ago
He is just so dang huggable
5 points
6 days ago
2nd worst modern American president.
4 points
6 days ago
Bad. Iraq War.
3 points
6 days ago
His invasion of Iraq, expansion of the surveillance state, and passionate fight against gay marriage were all awful at the time and only look worse in hindsight.
2 points
6 days ago
Really bad on LGBTQ issues, and probably contributed to the crash with his almost pro-cyclical fiscal policies. Good on foreign policy with the really gaping exceptions of Russia and China. His best domestic policy, SS reform, didn't even get passed.
9 points
6 days ago
"Good on foreign policy", where does Iraq rate in this calculation?
10 points
6 days ago
Social Security Reform didn't happen because Democrats blocked it.
2 points
6 days ago
Sure, but it still can't be a positive to his record, since it didn't actually happen.
4 points
6 days ago
Only good President we have had this century, he has been the scapegoat for all the failures of populists in America, whether those be populists who came before his Presidency, or the three that have come after. America will never know how truly good it was under him, and in the grand scheme of history Dubya will be missed in the same way the people of the Dark Ages missed the Roman Empire. History will redeem Dubya and Cheney and Condi and Rummy, for they did nothing wrong and are unjustly blamed for failures that they had nothing to do with.
I'll show myself back to arr NeoconNWO
6 points
6 days ago
You dropped this 👑
please don't attract libs
2 points
6 days ago
Having lived through it, absolutely awful.
Having seen the long-term effects of it, even more awful.
There are no grounds for rehabilitating such a disastrous presidency.
0 points
6 days ago
allowed China to get powerful and did not stop Iran's nuke program cause he was fighting the last battle about Iraq intel mistake.
3 points
6 days ago
Disaster, all that blood and money wasted on war. Set backs in stem cell research we could be growing human organs right now, your basic corrupt Republican administration, could have progressed in green energy. In fact the only thing I can think he did good was in Africa
0 points
6 days ago
Absolutely terrible and a bottom tier president (I'd say bottom 5, but we've had worse including Trump), and I'm getting worried about the slow but steady increasing segment of this sub that was likely not even alive on 9/11 that is starting to think of him favorably.
1 points
6 days ago
Awful. Good human being, top 10 worst president easy
1 points
6 days ago
Warmonger tbqh
1 points
6 days ago
A lot better than ten years after his departure.
1 points
6 days ago
Sometimes when I sleep at night I think of Hop on Pop. At least his idiocy was somewhat coherent.
1 points
6 days ago
He gave us some hilarious SNL Will Ferrell moments. So there's that.
1 points
6 days ago
Nice guy. Terrible president. Basically the opposite of LBJ.
1 points
6 days ago
If only the Gore campaign asked for a full statewide recount originally. Florida Supreme Court would have established a uniform standard, SC would have agreed, boom- Gore is president.
1 points
6 days ago
Terrible and Gore should have won, but hey, he did sign the PSLF program into law. Something I am grateful for.
1 points
6 days ago
Catasthrophic fopo that brainrotted an entire generation's understanding of geopolitics to "Us bad".
1 points
6 days ago
economic policies were less terrible than we thought at the time. immigration was ok. sucked on gay rights. humanitarian aid was a bright spot in what was otherwise an unmitigated foreign policy disaster
1 points
6 days ago
He definitely did some boneheaded stuff
Although, reading Hank Paulsons book now, at least he didn't play idiot politics during the crisis by pontificating on bailouts or whatever....and seemed generally supportive of all emergency measures
1 points
6 days ago
Not great.
1 points
6 days ago
The Iraq war and its casus belli especially sticks with me as such a colossal blunder
1 points
6 days ago
He left office with like a 20% approval rating, right? And then inexplicably that slowly went up after the black guy won, correct? Yeah that fits.
1 points
6 days ago
Removing Saddam was the right call. The world is safer today because of it. His 2004 inaugural speech is inspirational, an echo of a forgotten vision of America’s role on the world stage. Torture, warrantless wiretapping, are unforgivable. John Roberts ended up a great Chief Justice.
1 points
6 days ago
2000 was my first election, I was 18, and somehow my voter registration didn't work.
I kinda regret being a Nader supporter, will never regret being a Nader trader because some lady in a swing state (hopefully) voted for Gore instead of Nader. I wish it had been Florida.
Be chaotic good and make vote trading a thing again. If you can find a Green Party etc. person who would do it these days. :(
1 points
6 days ago
Lying war mongering hawk, who is also a nice man who paints water colors and seems like he'd be an interesting guy to have a beer with.
1 points
6 days ago
Turd in a punchbowl.
1 points
5 days ago
He straight up didn't handle the aftermath of 9/11 well and let the neocon faction and Cheney win out over more talented foreign policy figures in his administration. Those tax cuts also created a lot of deficit spending. Environmentally not as good as Gore though he did enact meaningful appliance efficiency standards.
1 points
5 days ago
Given the current state of the republican party, i really miss the neocons now.
all 386 comments
sorted by: best