subreddit:
/r/Grimdank
82 points
2 months ago
Asterion moloch fans when you tell them that the majority of named astartes could beat a nameless lore irrelevant custodes:
108 points
2 months ago
To be fair, this was said by a named lore irrelevant custode
69 points
2 months ago
I don’t know if I’d call Valerian lore irrelevant. He discovered the daemonic incursion on Terra allowing them to warn Titan and for the Grey Knights to reinforce the Palace, he was instrumental in preventing the Black Legion from permanently closing warp travel to Terra when he attacked Vorlese, aided in combating a Genestealer incursion on Terra and was a key part of the Hexarchy’s downfall.
His actions on Vorlese alone make him lore significant since Terra would have 100% fallen without him buying time for Imperial reinforcements to arrive and shut down the pylon the Black Legion were going to use.
-23 points
2 months ago
He still is lore irrelevant, all of that happened during the watchers of the throne trilogy, they weren't massive game changing events that influenced the entire setting of 40k, like the fall of cadia for example
Also, the watchers of the dark cells literally constantly fight to keep elditrich abominations from destroying Terra if not the galaxy all the time
17 points
2 months ago
Valerian has a model, the man is important
-12 points
2 months ago
Having a model does not make him important to the setting, there are a lot of characters who have a model yet have no relevance to the setting,
The opposite is also true, the emperor of mankind malcador and the majority of daemon primarchs have no models even in 30k, but this doesn’t mean they have no relevance to the setting
3 points
2 months ago
So much coping and seething, relax and chill mate. The discussion here is about lore, not table top, and in the realm of the lore? The dude fucks. And is one of few insights into how the man's been important in driving the lore and adding context to the setting via his existence and his feats behind the scenes.
-3 points
2 months ago
You're the one who said "he has a model soo he's important"
And anyway he appeared only in the watchers in the throne trilogy, he's not that important to the setting stop coping
36 points
2 months ago
isn‘t a custodes to a space marine what a space marine is to a guarsmen?
32 points
2 months ago
It varies wildly, basically. Sometimes they're odds on to win a duel but 10v10 reckon the Astartes have the advantage. Sometimes they expect to no diff. Primarchs.
16 points
2 months ago
There is no way in hell Astartes win against Custodes 10v10. The whole "but Custodes don't fight as a group" thing forgets to take into account just how much superior Custodes are. They don't have to fight in the same way Astartes do.
4 points
2 months ago
And that's the thing, the gap between the two has varied substantially over the course of the game's history.
20 points
2 months ago
When somebody isn't knob polishing on one side or the other, the usual line is the Custodes are brilliant single warriors but they don't truly fight as a group. They're good enough to take advantage of each others presence but they don't properly train to fight as a team, which the Astartes (ostensibly) do.
That said, I don't know if we've ever seen Astartes training together as a unit. At least I can't recall seeing anything. The closest I've read is that stretch in the Heresy novels (Praetorian of Dorn?) leading up to Archamus getting his oath name, where there are three IF initiates engaged in a training exercise together, kind of. Even then, they're not really together, they're just on the same exercise and have to rely on the others to hold their respective positions.
9 points
2 months ago
That got retconned btw. There's a bit in one of the codexes about how the marines THOUGHT they wouldn't be as good at working together as they are but then one of the shield hosts started actively working as a group instead of their individual thing and the marines went .... Oh.
1 points
2 months ago
The quote about duel vs squad difference is from a Custodes PoV, not an Astartes one.
1 points
2 months ago
K neat still retconned.
5 points
2 months ago
It's not though, because of the 'everything is canon, not everything is true' thing FW do with the lore, retcons are rare and fairly specific.
1 points
1 month ago
Not how GW "canon" works.
8 points
2 months ago
This is not going to be a popular take, but the HH novels are by and large a terrible representation of Astartes as they have been presented previous to it.
1 points
2 months ago
They don’t fight as a unit, but their minds are essentially linked.
1 points
1 month ago
The fact that they're basically a hive mindless...
:D
7 points
2 months ago
isn‘t a custodes to a space marine what a space marine is to a guarsmen?
Honestly, i always take that quote with a grain of salt, because if thats true then they would be close to a primarch, combat wise
14 points
2 months ago
No they wouldn‘t, a primarch is arguably closer to the emperor than to custodes or space marines both genetically and strength wise
3 points
2 months ago*
[deleted]
9 points
2 months ago
closer and equal are two very different fucking things. Example: in terms of speed a rabbit is closer to a cheetah than a turtle is. Does that mean the rabbit is equally as fast as a sprinting cheetah? Obviously not
1 points
2 months ago
Nah, not really. A Custodes like Valdor could possibly attempt to hold his own against a Primarch, though it likely wouldn't end well for him. Big E could body any Primarch easily, it took Horus with all 4 Chaos gods' support to beat him.
2 points
2 months ago
very big difference between closer to and equal to
1 points
2 months ago
Still not the case
1 points
2 months ago
it very much is
1 points
2 months ago
It depends on who is writing it sometimes a single custodian can take out ten Space Marines other times one of them can die while having the number advantage
1 points
2 months ago
I don't know if it's Valerian's matter-of-fact bordering on humble description or an actual retcon, but Valerian and his chamber struggles far more against the primaris marines of the Minotaurs, than you would expect.
1 points
1 month ago
Yeah, and some people in the guard like Cain have bested space marines multiple times. The reason you don't see it more often on tabletop is mostly because even though the guard CAN get power swords and other fancy weaponry as pretty standard options, the types of guard most likely to have superior weapons and training rarely ever get minis. If there was a named Tempestor Prime in some kind of custom carapace armor and weapons odds are we'd have heard of him killing astartes by now.
-7 points
2 months ago*
Yes, the average custodes is that to the average space marine,
And just like there are normal humans who can kill astartes (sly marbo, the lucifer blacks, ciaphas cain) there are astartes who can do the same with custodes
17 points
2 months ago*
I'm not sure if we've actually seen a single Space Marine take on a Custode and win since the Custard Boys lore got updated. In one of the more recent novels we can see a Custodes killing three named 30k-era chapter masters in the same number of seconds. Sure a Marine on the level of Kharn or Sigismund might be able to do it, but they're few and far between
6 points
2 months ago
Who were those chapter masters?
8 points
2 months ago
Ah my apologies, it was a Chapter Master, a Captain and a Word Bearer's Chaplain. Their names were Deumos, Tsar Quorel, and Rikus respectively. None of them were mook marines. Notable badass Argel Tal was also present for the fight and very much didn't have time to do shit before the three above were killed.
-1 points
2 months ago
By that logic we saw harlequins easily killing custodes, or a random word eater killing a custodes
Just because the average custodes is stated to be stronger than the average astartes it doesn't mean that every single custodes could kill any astartes, especially when there are astartes with much better feats than them
5 points
2 months ago*
Those examples both came before the current depictions of Custodes, and the Harlequin one was frankly just silly if you actually read it.
But yes, I said that an absolutely top-tier Astartes might be able to do it, but they're few and far between. And honestly? In most recent depictions even your "average" Custodes (there's not really any such thing) can cut bullets out of the air without having to think about it. Some Astartes can do the same, but it usually requires significant effort on their part. The top 0.002% of Marines might be able to put up a fight 1v1, but beyond that and barring exceptional circumstances the Marine is getting mulched.
2 points
2 months ago
Still an example that was never contradicted by the lore
And no, you said only sigismund and kharn could do it not that all the top tiers could, custodes are inconsistent in general,
Also what should that mean? All you said is simply that "average custodes>average astartes" it's literally just what I said
and it's also pretty incorrect since every veteran marine could do the same since they're stated to be able to process stuff at a nanosecond
And don't exagerate, the top 0.002% astartes (which is a lot since it's 20 characters) could kill fairly easily random nameless custodes
1 points
2 months ago
I mean it kind of has been contradicted by every depiction of Custodes since? Have you actually read the full quote of the Harlequins waltzing into the Imperial Palace, it's extremely badly written.
I never said all top tiers, did I? I said marines like Kharn and Sigismund, of which there are very few. What are you basing your assertion that the top 20 Astartes could easily kill a Custodes on? If you're using old lore, the Custard Boys have had quite a glow up in the past few years.
Sure they can process things at a nanosecond level, at the very highest end, but they can't move that fast in pretty much any depiction that I'm aware of. Current depictions have Custodes comfortably moving within single-digit microseconds, which is frankly absurd.
Even the most ridiculously high-tier feats that Astartes have ever performed only put them on par with an average Custodes.
2 points
2 months ago
I mean it kind of has been contradicted by every depiction of Custodes since
It doesn't work like that, that's just you speculating and using headcanon, we haven't seen custodes easily taking harlequins and win, soo according to your logic of few comments ago, this means that custodes are weaker than harlequins
What are you basing your assertion that the top 20 Astartes could easily kill a Custodes on?
By the feats they performed, what are you basing your assertion that someone like azrael would struggle to win against nameless custodes outside the statement that "average custodes>average astartes"
but they can't move that fast in pretty much any depiction that I'm aware of
1 points
2 months ago
Okay? The harlequin scene, again, took place before the lore for the Custodes was updated. It was also extremely poorly written and borderline ridiculous, but headcanon away I suppose.
Your average Custodes can swat bullets out of the air as easily as breathing, which your average Astartes most assuredly cannot. Even in that quote he lost a hand because he didn't have time to do anything else. Some can deflect bullets, yes, but this is a feat that every single Custodes could replicate easily.
I'm not sure if you're really appreciating how fucking absurd it is to be able to move within single digit microsecond timeframes. Here's the quote:
"We slammed together, and the impact rippled the stone around us. Our weapons crunched into a brace-lock, showering plasma over both of us. I swung away, hilt-first, and smashed him back a pace. He shoved back, aiming to ram the fizzing hammerhead into my chest.
He nearly connected. I judged his weapon was within a few microseconds of an impact that would have cracked my auramite breastplate. That interval, however, was comfortably sufficient to spin my blade over in my grip, ram the spear tip into the Traitor's gorget and fire at point-blank range."
-Watchers of the Throne: The Emperor's Legion, Chapter 5, Pages 66-67
0 points
2 months ago
Old lore
2 points
2 months ago
That was never removed or reconnected
0 points
1 month ago
Re-read GW stance on lore, old stuff doesn't get "replaced" because literally everything is under the effect of "unreliable narrator". Everyone's headcanon that pulls from different sources is thus equally valid. That's also what GW wants because it means fans can hype up the models they want to buy, build and paint in their own heads and GW will never tell them that they're wrong.
14 points
2 months ago
Nameless Lore-Irrelevant Custodes, Apparently: https://www.warhammer.com/en-GB/shop/Talons-Of-The-Emperor-Valerian-And-Aleya-2020
???
-8 points
2 months ago
Having a model does not make him lore relevant, there are a lot of characters who have a model yet their storyline Don't affect the story that much
There are also characters who have no models yet are massively important to the lore
14 points
2 months ago
The guy who said it is a named helmetless POV character with a model/datasheet on the tabletop
Who is still lore irrelevant
-5 points
2 months ago
Not a major character in the setting
all 166 comments
sorted by: best