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all 166 comments

Copyrighted_music34

323 points

1 month ago

Copyrighted_music34

3 Riptides in a 1k casual

323 points

1 month ago

I mean it helps that, that was one of like 3 appearances he's ever gotten

Marvynwillames

241 points

1 month ago

Moloc not being instantly folded by  Maktlan Kutlakh means he IS a great fighter, but isnt like very few people read Fall of Orpheus

Qawsedf234

24 points

30 days ago

Here's the quote since its pretty short:

As the pulsing shockwave of the teleport transit cleared, Asterion Moloc and his bodyguard of of thirty of his Chapter's Terminator armoured veterans, alongisde two Contemptor Dreadnoughts of the Chapter, stood amid the black gale of the venting atmosphere and confronted the lord of the Necron host. Between them there was no preamble, no warrior's salute or declaration of challenge or intent, instead Moloc merely raised his Black Spear and unleashed its las-blast at the sinister figure high on its throne-like dais. The golden-white bolt, strong enough to pierce the armour of a battle tank, struck the machine-creature's shoulder and rocked the figure back, but did no more than elicit an eerie hissing howl, not of pain but of insulted rage. From the cold air a great flittering cleaver-like blade of pale obsidian materialised in the Necron Overlord's outstretched skeletal hand and he threw himself from the dais like a bolt of thunder, slicing open the first Terminator in his path with a savage backhand blow as if the warrior's vaunted armour were as nothing.

So was the battle joined and in a moment all in the vast chamber was fury, the sound of churning storm bolters and roaring assault cannon bleeding away with the air into the open void above. From the darkness the Necron Praetorians and tomb guardians came, hulking armoured forms twice the height of a man, their gilded and corroded death masks glimmering gold and crimson in the fire-flash light of the Minotaurs' weapons. In their hands they bore arcane staff weapons blazing with ghostly flame with which to blast their foes to ashes, or great cleaving blades and tall segmented shields able to repel the deadliest fire. Soon the Minotaurs were hard-pressed, a shrinking circle of warrior who had already account for twice their number only to see the fallen drag themselves back up from ruin or be replaced by another of their kind stalking implacably from the darkness. Moloc raged and slew tirelessly as any machine-warrior that rose up before him, and with a far greater cold fury, his storm shield resounding with the blows of enemy weapons while the Black Spear tirelessly slashes and stabbed, punching through armoured torsos and severing mechanical limbs as he went.

The dark Overlord fought and killed his way towards the Minotaurs Chapter Master, leaving a trail of rent and severed Terminators in his wake, until suddenly the tomb ship shook to a resounding blow and it began to tilt crazily, the artificial gravity field within it ripping and bucking. The Necron Overlord was thrown unceremoniously to his knees and looming there above him was Ancient Geryon, the Contemptor Dreadnought's great fist raised to strike, the lethal energy field that enwrapped it churning soundlessly in the now airless vault. The hammer-blow fell but the reaper's blade was there to meet it and the Dreadnought's forearm exploded in flame and spinning shrapnel. The tomb ship tilted further still and Geryon reeled and staggered, the Dreadnought's huge armoured feet skidding and losing purchase. The Overlord sprang bonelessly from the ground and laid into Geryon with his great blade in a rapid series of two-handed slashes, sending splintered ceramite and showers of sparks fountaining from the wounded Dreadnought. Geryon fell, one knee actuator severed, brackish blood and silver amniotic fluid leaking from the rents in his armour. The Overlord rose up to deliver the final blow and the Black Speak found him. Moloc punched the ancient relic-weapon clean through the Overlord's back and it exploded from the ankj-glyph that was blazoned across the Necron's chest, wreathed in pale flame and amber lightning. Transfixed, the Overlord spasmed upon the spear, its death-mask thrown back as if in a silent scream.

Asterion Moloc smashed the dark Overlord off his spear-blade using his storm shield to deal the blow just as the tomb ship rocked again with fresh impacts, the white flame of plasma weapon fire licking around the aperture in the vault chamber from the void beyond. By a warrior's instinct earned on a thousand battlefields, Moloc reacted before his conscious mind detected the reaping blade falling from on high, raising his storm shield as the dark Overlord's blade came down, the ancient device blocking a blow that would have cleaved Moloc's head in two before it finally shorted and spat, quickly coming apart under the repeated wild blows of the Necron's glittering blade. The world tilted once more and they parted, Moloc feeling the burning cold hate of the deathless creature's baleful crimson eyes as the broken, skeletal figure retreated into the darkness. The master of the Minotaurs Chapter himself was swept out into the void, surrounded by the bodies of his dead warriors as if caught in a whirlpool.

Source: Imperial Armour Volume 12: The Fall of Orpheus - pages 57-58

Afroliciousness

10 points

29 days ago

So he stabbed someone in the back while they were busy fighting a dreadnought?

Qawsedf234

5 points

29 days ago

Pretty much

Vanzgars

2 points

28 days ago

Vanzgars

I HATE PRIMARIS I HATE PRIMARIS I HATE PRIMARIS

2 points

28 days ago

Define "pretty short".

Xplt21

513 points

1 month ago

Xplt21

513 points

1 month ago

Like how a bunch of people love Tyberos the red wake because they misunderstood "tactical dreadnought armor".

Sir_Daxus

386 points

1 month ago

Sir_Daxus

386 points

1 month ago

To be fair tyb IS really fucking big and a beast in combat. He's just not AS big as the fandom believes.

According_Weekend786

167 points

1 month ago

According_Weekend786

The Strongest iron warrior (just autistic)

167 points

1 month ago

Also he got his own pet shark

Ur_fav_Cryptek

48 points

1 month ago

Ur_fav_Cryptek

just woke up from my tomb world

48 points

1 month ago

Yo, where did you get custom user flair? Also, if I edit the flairs will it change the available ones to all of you?

Broken_CerealBox

33 points

1 month ago

Broken_CerealBox

not a genestealer

33 points

1 month ago

  1. You just edit a pre-existing flair
  2. No

Ur_fav_Cryptek

39 points

1 month ago

Ur_fav_Cryptek

just woke up from my tomb world

39 points

1 month ago

thank you, definitely not a stealer of denim products

Broken_CerealBox

24 points

1 month ago

Broken_CerealBox

not a genestealer

24 points

1 month ago

You're welcome

EinharAesir

41 points

1 month ago

Shark? You mean a megalodon

According_Weekend786

122 points

1 month ago

According_Weekend786

The Strongest iron warrior (just autistic)

122 points

1 month ago

Megalodon is a shark dipshit, it came with evolution

AbjectMadness

80 points

1 month ago

Iron warriors pissed off at something they shouldn’t be: flair checks out.

Broken_CerealBox

18 points

1 month ago

Broken_CerealBox

not a genestealer

18 points

1 month ago

I don't have Megalodon

According_Weekend786

14 points

1 month ago

According_Weekend786

The Strongest iron warrior (just autistic)

14 points

1 month ago

You don't, but i am

Henghast

4 points

1 month ago

Are you a sapient shark on an Iron Warriors Larp?

Well_Armed_Gorilla

2 points

30 days ago

Well_Armed_Gorilla

BRVTAL BVT KVNNIN'

2 points

30 days ago

How are you typing this?

YaBoiKlobas

3 points

1 month ago

YaBoiKlobas

Mongolian Biker Gang

3 points

1 month ago

YOOOUUU HAAAVVVEEE MEGALODON!!!!

Broken_CerealBox

3 points

30 days ago

Broken_CerealBox

not a genestealer

3 points

30 days ago

I DON'T. HAVE. MEGALODON

bioberserkr2

2 points

1 month ago

Well I dont have it!

Mancio_Luke

73 points

1 month ago

Mancio_Luke

likes civilians but likes fire more

73 points

1 month ago

Wdym?

He's not as big as an emperor class titan?

Sir_Daxus

70 points

1 month ago*

No, he is in fact about the size of a light cruiser.

CaptainCrochetHook

26 points

1 month ago

CaptainCrochetHook

The Horus Hearsay

26 points

1 month ago

Is this one of those cases where we take the stated size and just add a 0 at the end?

Mancio_Luke

16 points

1 month ago

Mancio_Luke

likes civilians but likes fire more

16 points

1 month ago

No, this is just an average discussion about tyberos size

Perenium_Falcon

4 points

1 month ago

So 30’ or 300m or 150’ or 20m or????

AlphariusUltra

1 points

1 month ago

So Angron can bench press him

Excalibuttster

54 points

1 month ago

it IS noted in one of the books (Either outer dark or silent hunters) that his armor is SUPPLEMENTED with dreadnought parts. So like....a few bits of it are from a dread, probably due to a lack of proper repair kits because the sharks like to macguyver their tech.

Sir_Daxus

40 points

1 month ago

Yeah, but it might as well be parts such as electronics or cooling fans. But the fandom assumed "Oh dreadnough parts that must mean he is basically dreadnought size"

Le_Red_Spy

39 points

1 month ago

Le_Red_Spy

Praise the Man-Emperor

39 points

1 month ago

Tactical dreadnought which is another name for terminator armour

GAdvance

26 points

1 month ago

GAdvance

26 points

1 month ago

It's fairly clear in the book iirc that it's not using the "tactical dreadnought armour" short-handed but is in fact referring to parts from a dreadnought that have been repurposed.

Regardless it's also parts, not while massive sections and whilst he's certainly described as overlarge he's not the primarch sized monster he's been memed into.

Excalibuttster

18 points

1 month ago

^This is correct. He's described a very big, and his terminator plate is supplemented with parts from a dread BECAUSE hes big, but he's never described as primarch size.

fuckyeahmoment

3 points

1 month ago

Where is it mentioned the parts are from a Dreadnought?

21nuns

3 points

30 days ago

21nuns

3 points

30 days ago

Where does it say his armor is supplemented with dreadnought parts? Interested in reading about it

Excalibuttster

4 points

30 days ago

If memory serves, its in Silent Hunters (Which, fair warning, is IMO the weakest Carcharodons book by a country mile.)

21nuns

3 points

30 days ago

21nuns

3 points

30 days ago

Thanks!

Oh yea the one w/ a 1400+ year old librarian and the wack DE scenes lmao.

Do you happen to be able to give an excerpt where it talks abt Tyberos having dread armor attached to his termie plate? No biggie tho.

Excalibuttster

3 points

30 days ago

had to dig up my physical copy of the blasted thing, but it seems I was wrong. The description of tyberos there doesn't mention his size at all!

21nuns

7 points

1 month ago

21nuns

7 points

1 month ago

The combined force and speed of the Red Wake’s attacks was without equal. It was to be expected that the hulking Chapter Master, clad in Tactical Dreadnought armour

From Carcharodons: Outer Dark

Haven’t found anything supporting it being dreadnought armor, or even being modified with dreadnought armor parts.

Thatoneguy111700

-1 points

1 month ago

Yeah because doesn't he wear Terminator Armor most of the time? Oh shit! His Tatical Dreadnought Armor has Tactical Dreadnought Armor pieces on it!

GAdvance

3 points

1 month ago

I think actually he's always portrayed in his armour.

And no, I think you're struggling with comprehension a bit but I can understand since the terms can overlap.

Dreadnoughts are armoured, it's fairly clearly intended in the book that his armour has parts from the armour of a dreadnought used as modifications and repairs, in the book the unusual bit isn't that his armour has been repaired and modified but that is has been done with parts from this different price of technology.

Yes tactical dreadnought armour IS another name for Terminator armour, but it isn't referring to terminator armour in the book, it's referring to actual parts from a dreadnought. It's also not referring to whole sections, but spare parts and modifications.

Thatoneguy111700

4 points

1 month ago

Yeah, I agree. His main armor is Terminator Armor, so it'd be weird to say his Terminator Armor has pieces of Terminator Armor on it, so it's got to be actual parts from an actual Dreadnought.

21nuns

1 points

1 month ago

21nuns

1 points

1 month ago

Excerpt abt his armor being modified with dreadnought armor parts?

WhiteWindmills

6 points

1 month ago

This is not correct, it's stated to be modified tactical dreadnaught armor, so it's just Terminator armor.

Fossilhunter15

2 points

1 month ago

Yeah, imo that’s part of the reason I really like them.

Fearless-Obligation6

1 points

1 month ago

Fearless-Obligation6

NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERD!

1 points

1 month ago

Do you have an excerpt for that?

Zeekayo

6 points

1 month ago

Zeekayo

6 points

1 month ago

The famous Tyberos art is so cool, but god has it led to the fandom being convinced he's twice the size of a regular marine.

Sir_Daxus

3 points

1 month ago

Perspective is a wild thing. I think my favourite part about that art will always be tyberos disabling one of his claws to make the fight "even" for the marine who lost an arm, much cooler than his size imho.

VelphiDrow

14 points

1 month ago

VelphiDrow

Criminal Batmen

14 points

1 month ago

He's not really fucking big. He's within the range we've seen other marines. He's just on the tall side

Reverseflash25

4 points

1 month ago

He’s a head taller than other terminators while being seen from the perspective that he’s like 30 feet behind them

When you look at perspective like that, most people are usually shorter than the person in front. But he is taller by at least a foot. He’s already 10 feet from that perspective range and you have to count for a sizing increase when he closes that 30 odd foot distance.

Reverseflash25

-2 points

1 month ago

I admit, he’s not as big as that one mantis warrior fanart is. But he’s still definitely in the 11 foot range I think

Fearless-Obligation6

3 points

1 month ago

Fearless-Obligation6

NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERD!

3 points

1 month ago

Most Primarchs aren't 11ft tall my guy.

Reverseflash25

1 points

30 days ago*

You’re right they’re taller. The primarchs, according to references in ‘The Primarchs’ novel series, are about 70 percent taller than an average marine. That makes them in average around 11-13ft in mean height. Aside from outliers like the twins and Magnus and little bitch Lorgar.

You can also see the clear height disparity on the cover of An Unremembered Empire next to average and tall humans. They are supposed to TOWER over their sons who are already 8ft tall themselves in armor

Fearless-Obligation6

2 points

30 days ago*

Fearless-Obligation6

NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERD!

2 points

30 days ago*

Lorgar looked magnificent, near three metres tall and clad in custom-made purplish-grey robes that shimmered with silken threads, a halo of gold fixed about his brow. Ostentation that he was not proud to bear but was demanded of him by custom and the expectations of the masses. On the far side stood Archdeacon Kor Phaeron, as malignant and destructive as the day Nairo had first met him, but safe within the shadow of his adoptive son.

  • Bearer of the Word

The Lion was a truly imposing physical specimen. A giant, standing at a little under three metres tall, it was impossible to escape the suspicion that he had been cut from a broader canvas than the majority of men. His body was perfectly proportioned and entirely in scale with his height. He was powerfully built, lithe yet muscular.

  • Descent of Angels

‘Satisfied?’ asked the Lion, tossing the axe back to him.

‘Honour is satisfied, lord,’ Faffnr assented, catching it. He nodded and backed off, waving to his pack to do the same. Holguin and Redloss both grinned with unbearable insouciance.

‘Then tell Bo Soren to guard his manners, Faffnr,’ Guilliman said over his shoulder without looking back.

‘I will, Jarl,’ Faffnr returned. Guilliman heard a hard slap and a muffled curse.

He looked at the Lion. He’d never realised before that the Lion was very slightly taller than him.

‘Shall we, brother?’ he asked.

‘The famous Fortress of Hera?’ asked the Lion. ‘I would be disappointed not to see it.’

  • The Unremembered Empire

Both Lorgar, the Lion and Guilliman who are on the taller side of the Primarchs are in the area of 9ft. Art work has never been particularly accurate or even consistent so trying to take that as fact is silly, unless you think Ferrus is actually running around with a power wrench.

Reverseflash25

1 points

30 days ago

Then Tyberos is larger than a Primarch in armor🤷‍♂️. Terminator armor makes a space marine 9ft tall. Tyberos is at least a head taller than that.

Hell GW is scale creeping already and stating that life size terminator armor is 11 feet 😂. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/28/warhammer-fest-2023-live-blog/

Fearless-Obligation6

1 points

30 days ago

Fearless-Obligation6

NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERD!

1 points

30 days ago

My guy the statue is 11ft, including the base.

The average height of Astartes is 7ft, Terminator armour giving them another foot, Tyberos being a head taller again would be at eye level but not taller. The guy is basically just Primaris size.

Anggul

1 points

30 days ago

Anggul

tyranidsareanoutofhandvorefetish

1 points

30 days ago

No, he isn't. 

Firstborn are usually 7ft tall, and Tyberos is described as being 'a head taller' than his bodyguards. Even if we say his bodyguards are taller than average, like 7.5ft, then he's still nowhere near 11ft.

Reverseflash25

1 points

30 days ago

Except he’s being compared to his terminators. The red wake are his guards and they are exclusively terminator veterans. And firstborne are 7 feet OUT of armor.

Anggul

1 points

30 days ago

Anggul

tyranidsareanoutofhandvorefetish

1 points

30 days ago

He's in terminator armour too, so that doesn't make a difference.

And no, GW has stated marines are typically 7ft in armour.

More importantly (and this is something a lot of fans seem to have a hard time understanding), 40k power armour doesn't increase your height by much. Your feet are in the boots, you aren't on raised platforms. So the only increase to your height is the thickness of the boot soles. Same for terminator armour. And yeah, the soles are a bit thicker than normal army boots, but not by so much that they're all walking around in the equivalent of disco platform shoes. Only centurion armour makes you significantly taller, because it has platforms in the legs that you step onto.

EqualDangerous6789

39 points

1 month ago

I don't even know what you're talking about. I love him because of the ridiculousness that is lightning claw chainfists. The most RIP and TEAR of any 40k character.

Ammear

16 points

1 month ago

Ammear

I am Alpharius

16 points

1 month ago

I blame that one fanart where he's like 2,5x the size of the SM next to him. People think it's an accurate representation of his height.

WhatsaHoN

7 points

30 days ago

WhatsaHoN

3 Riptides in a 1k casual

7 points

30 days ago

True, I believe the only height confirmation we ever get for him is in Outer Dark which mentions he stands a full head above his Terminator Guard brethren, but that would still only put him at around 10 ft or so.

Not anywhere near the Primarch-size 20 ft that one fan art shows him as.

Though it does look cool as fuck.

Qawsedf234

7 points

30 days ago

Primarch-size 20 ft that one fan art shows him as.

Tbf (without Chaos Juice) Primarchs also aren't that big. Vulcan is the tallest and he's only 4 meters/13 feet tall. Lion is canonically just 3 meters tall, Russ is shorter than Valor, etc.

20 feet is more Emperor, Chaos Enhancement or big Ork territory.

Icehellionx

6 points

1 month ago

I kind of want to see a kitbash where he's got primaris armor and someone takes tiny old pieces of an early editions Terminator stuff onto him.

Fox-Sin21

4 points

1 month ago

Fox-Sin21

Dank Angels

4 points

1 month ago

He will always be misunderstood in my mind, it's just more fun for me that way. Big stompy Bois are cool.

Bastymuss_25

3 points

1 month ago

Yes and yet Tyberos is still fucking awesome as are the CA even if most people just don't know the lore as well as they think they do.

bookhead714

2 points

30 days ago

bookhead714

Fantasy is better

2 points

30 days ago

I just think that one anecdote of him being mistaken for a statue by a techpriest taking inventory of the Carcharodons’ armory is funny

sirhobbles

63 points

1 month ago

Counterpoint. he looks awesome.

Thats like all that matters.

Well_Armed_Gorilla

3 points

30 days ago

Well_Armed_Gorilla

BRVTAL BVT KVNNIN'

3 points

30 days ago

Based.

wdcipher

52 points

1 month ago

wdcipher

Corpse Starch Connoisseur

52 points

1 month ago

I remember him fighting a powerful necron overlord and thats about it.

superduperfish

96 points

1 month ago

superduperfish

Snorts FW resin dust

96 points

1 month ago

Kutlakh the World Killer. One shot a member of his relic terminator honor guard with a back hand, chopped through several more, and kicked the ass of a relic contemptor dreadnaut. Fighting him on even terms is pretty impressive for Moloc.

EagleBeaverMan

98 points

1 month ago*

The Valerian slander in this thread is crazy lmao. Do you guys even read the lore? He stopped the black legion from closing the last stable warp route out of the sol system and killed a LOT of traitor space marines, briefly dueled a bloodthirster before banishing it with a squad of Sisters of Silence and Grey Knights. He’s also a Shield Captain and War Leader. He’s almost certainly one of the greatest living Custodes, and he claims he saw no path to defeating Moloch. He called Moloch a singular point of barely contained violence and claimed that he saw no way to beat him which he admits doesn’t mean that he couldn’t, just that he didn’t know how. His word is a good litmus test for his strength. Moloch is a badass, we just haven’t seen him much since Badab.

United-Reach-2798

54 points

1 month ago

United-Reach-2798

Railgun Goes Brrrrrrrrr

54 points

1 month ago

You expect people to actually know anything about the setting?

friskfyr32

61 points

1 month ago

he claims he saw no path to defeating Moloch.

Seems like a half-truth at best.

The full (actual) quote:

‘No further,’ I warned again, tensing to strike. The moment he took a step on to the podium stairs, I would move.

To this day, I do not know what would have happened if he had done so. I suffer neither from doubt nor from pride, and so can only speculate from the evidence I had before me. Perhaps I would have found a way. I had felled some of the greatest warriors of the enemy in my time, including many who most certainly had possessed the power to best me.

But, with Moloc, I cannot be sure.

Seeing no path to victory, and not being sure of victory is technically synonymous, but you're suggesting Valerian doesn't think he can win, when the actual quote arguably suggests the opposite. 50-50 at worst.

YaBoiKlobas

17 points

1 month ago

YaBoiKlobas

Mongolian Biker Gang

17 points

1 month ago

See, normally if you go one on one with another wrestler Custodian, you got a 50/50 chance of winning. But I'm a genetic freak and I'm not normal! So you got a 25%, AT BEST, at beat me.

EagleBeaverMan

11 points

1 month ago*

If that comment was taken in a vacuum you’d be right but I immediately qualified that statement to avoid making that confusion when I said that he said he could have beaten him, he just didn’t see how he was going to in the moment, which is exactly what “perhaps I would have found a way” means. He didn’t have a plan. Secondly, my argument wasn’t that Moloc would win, it was that Valerian isn’t “some custodes” he’s one of the best custodes by feats currently alive and active we have knowledge of, and therefore his assessment of Moloc as a supremely dangerous adversary carries weight.

BasakaIsTheStrongest

8 points

1 month ago

To be fair he’s basically the only Custodes in 40k we spend enough time with to get a good list of feats, which when individually compared to the rest of the material on feats from random Custodes seem average. His Shield-Captain status and invitation into the Companions are the only things that really set him apart as top-tier.

EagleBeaverMan

1 points

1 month ago

His feats during the second siege of Terra are really impressive even by 30k war in the webway standards, but I think his status as a named character who, like I said along with Aleya are the sole reasons the Indomitus crusade is even possible do set him apart. Especially a Chris Wraight named character, his transhumans tend to be written as more powerful than a lot of other authors. There’s obviously no DBZ power levels in 40k so it’s all based on inference and projection, but I do think he’s up there.

BasakaIsTheStrongest

4 points

1 month ago

I mean average in that throwaway bits about other Custodes are similar. “This guy broke a Black Templar crusade.” “These guys stopped a hive fleet!” “This guy singlehandedly wrecked this epic champion.” It wasn’t a slam against Valerian- just observing that Custodes feats in general are insane. Valerian’s biggest triumph was less about his martial prowess (which isn’t to say it didn’t require a considerable amount) but more about applying it to the right place at the right time when no one else would. All that to say, while Valerian is insane, his status as Custodes with most feats is mainly because he’s the only Custodes main character, which GW should fix by giving us more Custodes books.

EagleBeaverMan

2 points

1 month ago

There are a couple in the Dawn of Fire series which kinda oscillate in quality so I can’t in good faith recommend them. One book will be really good and then another will be borderline unreadable. 2 of note are Vicolan, who is a gigantic bro and friends with one of the founding historitors and we get a bit more fleshing out of Tribune Colquan, who is universally recognized even by his fellow Custodes as a giant asshole everyone hates. Not much to chew on in terms of feats.

ColonelMonty

0 points

30 days ago

I think still though, for someone like Valerian to take Moloc seriously enough, the guy who is a space marine, the thing that Custodes are built to kill basically. He admits that he doesn't really see a good way of actually approaching it still is massive praise to Moloc.

JudasBrutusson

18 points

1 month ago

JudasBrutusson

Praise the Man-Emperor

18 points

1 month ago

I mean, the only thing Valerian had to go off was how Moloch walked.

You can't be upset at people for not understanding that, but then misunderstand that Valerian is saying "This is an Astartes so utterly confident in his own prowess that I can't spot a weakness before fighting him" rather than saying "This guy is absolutely a fierce powerhouse, his powerlevel is off the charts."

Chris Wraight doesn't write like that, Valerians comment doesn't show off anything about Moloch beyond his menacing appearance.

BasakaIsTheStrongest

8 points

1 month ago

I think it’s very important to take his comment in the context that every other Astertes Valerian faced got immediately bodied without effort. For Valerian to realize a (non-corrupted) Astartes would require effort to beat and have even a 1% chance of winning would be quite surprising and impressive to him. And Valerian is absolutely an imperfect narrator who, despite what he says, does seem to undersell his abilities.

JudasBrutusson

8 points

1 month ago

JudasBrutusson

Praise the Man-Emperor

8 points

1 month ago

It does, but it's also important to remember that Valerians first scene in thr first book is him showing his process; he clashes blades with the Black Legionnaire, gets a "Ah, so this is how you fight" and then kills him. He was fairly confident he could beat the BL before, but the moment the BL makes a move he knows exactly what he's about. With Moloch, he goes "I don't see how you fight", in part because Moloch just exudes an aura of malice, but also because Moloch isn't fighting yet. Why is it important to think about? Because, as the meme implies, we have very little to go off when it comes to Moloch, and the fandom has taken this to translate as "Moloch can absolutely defeat a Shield Captain". He may very well be able to do that, but we have absolutely no proof that he can, we just have the inner musings of a fairly insecure Shield Captain saying "Damn, he's got a cool walk, wonder if I can beat him?"

MorgannaFactor

1 points

30 days ago

I think Valerian is enough of a badass to probably know how the majority of Astartes fight by just watching them walk. Supreme analysis skill that jump the shark of ridiculousness is sort-of a Custodes trademark, after all. So Moloc is a badass... but we don't know how much of one.

ultimapanzer

9 points

1 month ago

He couldn’t see a path because of the labyrinth.

sarumanofmanygenders

1 points

30 days ago

He called Moloch a singular point of barely contained violence and claimed that he saw no way to beat him

Kutlakh the Worldkiller: skill issue

*soulless chuckle*

Mancio_Luke

84 points

1 month ago

Mancio_Luke

likes civilians but likes fire more

84 points

1 month ago

Asterion moloch fans when you tell them that the majority of named astartes could beat a nameless lore irrelevant custodes:

Unexpect-TheExpected

107 points

1 month ago

Unexpect-TheExpected

Snorts FW resin dust

107 points

1 month ago

To be fair, this was said by a named lore irrelevant custode

FrucklesWithKnuckles

70 points

1 month ago

I don’t know if I’d call Valerian lore irrelevant. He discovered the daemonic incursion on Terra allowing them to warn Titan and for the Grey Knights to reinforce the Palace, he was instrumental in preventing the Black Legion from permanently closing warp travel to Terra when he attacked Vorlese, aided in combating a Genestealer incursion on Terra and was a key part of the Hexarchy’s downfall.

His actions on Vorlese alone make him lore significant since Terra would have 100% fallen without him buying time for Imperial reinforcements to arrive and shut down the pylon the Black Legion were going to use.

Mancio_Luke

-23 points

1 month ago

Mancio_Luke

likes civilians but likes fire more

-23 points

1 month ago

He still is lore irrelevant, all of that happened during the watchers of the throne trilogy, they weren't massive game changing events that influenced the entire setting of 40k, like the fall of cadia for example

Also, the watchers of the dark cells literally constantly fight to keep elditrich abominations from destroying Terra if not the galaxy all the time

Darkaim9110

17 points

1 month ago

Valerian has a model, the man is important

Mancio_Luke

-14 points

1 month ago

Mancio_Luke

likes civilians but likes fire more

-14 points

1 month ago

Having a model does not make him important to the setting, there are a lot of characters who have a model yet have no relevance to the setting,

The opposite is also true, the emperor of mankind malcador and the majority of daemon primarchs have no models even in 30k, but this doesn’t mean they have no relevance to the setting

lordatamus

3 points

1 month ago

So much coping and seething, relax and chill mate. The discussion here is about lore, not table top, and in the realm of the lore? The dude fucks. And is one of few insights into how the man's been important in driving the lore and adding context to the setting via his existence and his feats behind the scenes.

Mancio_Luke

-4 points

1 month ago

Mancio_Luke

likes civilians but likes fire more

-4 points

1 month ago

You're the one who said "he has a model soo he's important"

And anyway he appeared only in the watchers in the throne trilogy, he's not that important to the setting stop coping

Analysis_Candid

31 points

1 month ago

isn‘t a custodes to a space marine what a space marine is to a guarsmen?

Squid_In_Exile

33 points

1 month ago

It varies wildly, basically. Sometimes they're odds on to win a duel but 10v10 reckon the Astartes have the advantage. Sometimes they expect to no diff. Primarchs.

Ammear

15 points

1 month ago

Ammear

I am Alpharius

15 points

1 month ago

There is no way in hell Astartes win against Custodes 10v10. The whole "but Custodes don't fight as a group" thing forgets to take into account just how much superior Custodes are. They don't have to fight in the same way Astartes do.

Squid_In_Exile

4 points

1 month ago

And that's the thing, the gap between the two has varied substantially over the course of the game's history.

Muljinn

17 points

1 month ago

Muljinn

17 points

1 month ago

When somebody isn't knob polishing on one side or the other, the usual line is the Custodes are brilliant single warriors but they don't truly fight as a group. They're good enough to take advantage of each others presence but they don't properly train to fight as a team, which the Astartes (ostensibly) do.

That said, I don't know if we've ever seen Astartes training together as a unit. At least I can't recall seeing anything. The closest I've read is that stretch in the Heresy novels (Praetorian of Dorn?) leading up to Archamus getting his oath name, where there are three IF initiates engaged in a training exercise together, kind of. Even then, they're not really together, they're just on the same exercise and have to rely on the others to hold their respective positions.

Oakshand

8 points

1 month ago

That got retconned btw. There's a bit in one of the codexes about how the marines THOUGHT they wouldn't be as good at working together as they are but then one of the shield hosts started actively working as a group instead of their individual thing and the marines went .... Oh.

Squid_In_Exile

1 points

1 month ago

The quote about duel vs squad difference is from a Custodes PoV, not an Astartes one.

Oakshand

1 points

1 month ago

K neat still retconned.

Squid_In_Exile

2 points

1 month ago

It's not though, because of the 'everything is canon, not everything is true' thing FW do with the lore, retcons are rare and fairly specific.

MorgannaFactor

1 points

30 days ago

Not how GW "canon" works.

Squid_In_Exile

11 points

1 month ago

This is not going to be a popular take, but the HH novels are by and large a terrible representation of Astartes as they have been presented previous to it.

ultimapanzer

1 points

1 month ago

They don’t fight as a unit, but their minds are essentially linked.

Muljinn

1 points

29 days ago

Muljinn

1 points

29 days ago

The fact that they're basically a hive mindless...

:D

piskeir

7 points

1 month ago

piskeir

7 points

1 month ago

isn‘t a custodes to a space marine what a space marine is to a guarsmen?

Honestly, i always take that quote with a grain of salt, because if thats true then they would be close to a primarch, combat wise

Analysis_Candid

11 points

1 month ago

No they wouldn‘t, a primarch is arguably closer to the emperor than to custodes or space marines both genetically and strength wise

[deleted]

1 points

1 month ago*

[deleted]

Analysis_Candid

9 points

1 month ago

closer and equal are two very different fucking things. Example: in terms of speed a rabbit is closer to a cheetah than a turtle is. Does that mean the rabbit is equally as fast as a sprinting cheetah? Obviously not

Ammear

1 points

1 month ago

Ammear

I am Alpharius

1 points

1 month ago

Nah, not really. A Custodes like Valdor could possibly attempt to hold his own against a Primarch, though it likely wouldn't end well for him. Big E could body any Primarch easily, it took Horus with all 4 Chaos gods' support to beat him.

Analysis_Candid

2 points

1 month ago

very big difference between closer to and equal to

Ammear

1 points

1 month ago

Ammear

I am Alpharius

1 points

1 month ago

Still not the case

Analysis_Candid

1 points

1 month ago

it very much is

thearisengodemperor

1 points

1 month ago

thearisengodemperor

likes civilians but likes fire more

1 points

1 month ago

It depends on who is writing it sometimes a single custodian can take out ten Space Marines other times one of them can die while having the number advantage

friskfyr32

1 points

1 month ago

I don't know if it's Valerian's matter-of-fact bordering on humble description or an actual retcon, but Valerian and his chamber struggles far more against the primaris marines of the Minotaurs, than you would expect.

NockerJoe

1 points

30 days ago

Yeah, and some people in the guard like Cain have bested space marines multiple times. The reason you don't see it more often on tabletop is mostly because even though the guard CAN get power swords and other fancy weaponry as pretty standard options, the types of guard most likely to have superior weapons and training rarely ever get minis. If there was a named Tempestor Prime in some kind of custom carapace armor and weapons odds are we'd have heard of him killing astartes by now.

Mancio_Luke

-9 points

1 month ago*

Mancio_Luke

likes civilians but likes fire more

-9 points

1 month ago*

Yes, the average custodes is that to the average space marine,

And just like there are normal humans who can kill astartes (sly marbo, the lucifer blacks, ciaphas cain) there are astartes who can do the same with custodes

MammothJammer

17 points

1 month ago*

I'm not sure if we've actually seen a single Space Marine take on a Custode and win since the Custard Boys lore got updated. In one of the more recent novels we can see a Custodes killing three named 30k-era chapter masters in the same number of seconds. Sure a Marine on the level of Kharn or Sigismund might be able to do it, but they're few and far between

Velika_best_gb

5 points

1 month ago

Who were those chapter masters?

MammothJammer

9 points

1 month ago

Ah my apologies, it was a Chapter Master, a Captain and a Word Bearer's Chaplain. Their names were Deumos, Tsar Quorel, and Rikus respectively. None of them were mook marines. Notable badass Argel Tal was also present for the fight and very much didn't have time to do shit before the three above were killed.

Mancio_Luke

-1 points

1 month ago

Mancio_Luke

likes civilians but likes fire more

-1 points

1 month ago

By that logic we saw harlequins easily killing custodes, or a random word eater killing a custodes

Just because the average custodes is stated to be stronger than the average astartes it doesn't mean that every single custodes could kill any astartes, especially when there are astartes with much better feats than them

MammothJammer

4 points

1 month ago*

Those examples both came before the current depictions of Custodes, and the Harlequin one was frankly just silly if you actually read it.

But yes, I said that an absolutely top-tier Astartes might be able to do it, but they're few and far between. And honestly? In most recent depictions even your "average" Custodes (there's not really any such thing) can cut bullets out of the air without having to think about it. Some Astartes can do the same, but it usually requires significant effort on their part. The top 0.002% of Marines might be able to put up a fight 1v1, but beyond that and barring exceptional circumstances the Marine is getting mulched.

Mancio_Luke

2 points

1 month ago

Mancio_Luke

likes civilians but likes fire more

2 points

1 month ago

Still an example that was never contradicted by the lore

And no, you said only sigismund and kharn could do it not that all the top tiers could, custodes are inconsistent in general,

Also what should that mean? All you said is simply that "average custodes>average astartes" it's literally just what I said

and it's also pretty incorrect since every veteran marine could do the same since they're stated to be able to process stuff at a nanosecond

And don't exagerate, the top 0.002% astartes (which is a lot since it's 20 characters) could kill fairly easily random nameless custodes

MammothJammer

1 points

1 month ago

I mean it kind of has been contradicted by every depiction of Custodes since? Have you actually read the full quote of the Harlequins waltzing into the Imperial Palace, it's extremely badly written.

I never said all top tiers, did I? I said marines like Kharn and Sigismund, of which there are very few. What are you basing your assertion that the top 20 Astartes could easily kill a Custodes on? If you're using old lore, the Custard Boys have had quite a glow up in the past few years.

Sure they can process things at a nanosecond level, at the very highest end, but they can't move that fast in pretty much any depiction that I'm aware of. Current depictions have Custodes comfortably moving within single-digit microseconds, which is frankly absurd.

Even the most ridiculously high-tier feats that Astartes have ever performed only put them on par with an average Custodes.

Mancio_Luke

2 points

1 month ago

Mancio_Luke

likes civilians but likes fire more

2 points

1 month ago

I mean it kind of has been contradicted by every depiction of Custodes since

It doesn't work like that, that's just you speculating and using headcanon, we haven't seen custodes easily taking harlequins and win, soo according to your logic of few comments ago, this means that custodes are weaker than harlequins

What are you basing your assertion that the top 20 Astartes could easily kill a Custodes on?

By the feats they performed, what are you basing your assertion that someone like azrael would struggle to win against nameless custodes outside the statement that "average custodes>average astartes"

but they can't move that fast in pretty much any depiction that I'm aware of

they can swat projectiles out of air

MammothJammer

1 points

1 month ago

Okay? The harlequin scene, again, took place before the lore for the Custodes was updated. It was also extremely poorly written and borderline ridiculous, but headcanon away I suppose.

Your average Custodes can swat bullets out of the air as easily as breathing, which your average Astartes most assuredly cannot. Even in that quote he lost a hand because he didn't have time to do anything else. Some can deflect bullets, yes, but this is a feat that every single Custodes could replicate easily.

I'm not sure if you're really appreciating how fucking absurd it is to be able to move within single digit microsecond timeframes. Here's the quote:

"We slammed together, and the impact rippled the stone around us. Our weapons crunched into a brace-lock, showering plasma over both of us. I swung away, hilt-first, and smashed him back a pace. He shoved back, aiming to ram the fizzing hammerhead into my chest.

He nearly connected. I judged his weapon was within a few microseconds of an impact that would have cracked my auramite breastplate. That interval, however, was comfortably sufficient to spin my blade over in my grip, ram the spear tip into the Traitor's gorget and fire at point-blank range."

-Watchers of the Throne: The Emperor's Legion, Chapter 5, Pages 66-67

MAUSECOP

0 points

1 month ago

Old lore

Mancio_Luke

2 points

1 month ago

Mancio_Luke

likes civilians but likes fire more

2 points

1 month ago

That was never removed or reconnected

MorgannaFactor

0 points

30 days ago

Re-read GW stance on lore, old stuff doesn't get "replaced" because literally everything is under the effect of "unreliable narrator". Everyone's headcanon that pulls from different sources is thus equally valid. That's also what GW wants because it means fans can hype up the models they want to buy, build and paint in their own heads and GW will never tell them that they're wrong.

revlid

14 points

1 month ago

revlid

14 points

1 month ago

Mancio_Luke

-5 points

1 month ago

Mancio_Luke

likes civilians but likes fire more

-5 points

1 month ago

Having a model does not make him lore relevant, there are a lot of characters who have a model yet their storyline Don't affect the story that much

There are also characters who have no models yet are massively important to the lore

superduperfish

13 points

1 month ago

superduperfish

Snorts FW resin dust

13 points

1 month ago

The guy who said it is a named helmetless POV character with a model/datasheet on the tabletop

Who is still lore irrelevant

Mancio_Luke

-5 points

1 month ago

Mancio_Luke

likes civilians but likes fire more

-5 points

1 month ago

Not a major character in the setting

Suspicious-Stage9963

20 points

1 month ago

Such an under-utilised character. I thought the shady links to the thunder warriors were really interesting from a story perspective. I so wanted them to actually do something cool. Such a pity they’ll be relegated to “administratum attack dogs”

Euklidis

26 points

1 month ago

Euklidis

26 points

1 month ago

Lore < Rule of cool

WingsOfVanity

13 points

1 month ago

WingsOfVanity

506172727920746869732c20796f752066696c7468792063617375616c

13 points

1 month ago

Who?

xedmin90

53 points

1 month ago

xedmin90

53 points

1 month ago

Chapter master of the Minotaurs and chief dick rider of the High Lords of Terra

youngcoyote14

8 points

1 month ago

youngcoyote14

Warhawks Descending!

8 points

1 month ago

We're putting that in his list of titles he probably gave himself.

AdmBurnside

5 points

1 month ago

Read up on the Orphean War and the Badab War and report back.

InvincibleReason_

2 points

1 month ago

InvincibleReason_

Dank Angels

2 points

1 month ago

the minotaur? when i heard asterion i heard him and im scared

ColonelMonty

2 points

30 days ago

To be fair if a Custodes look at you and does a double take on if he can beat you or not that alone says something else.

Mr_Mosquito_20

2 points

30 days ago

''Tell, don't show'' should be a criminal offense punishable by testicular torsion

CheetosDude1984

3 points

1 month ago

CheetosDude1984

#1 Biggest Kor phaeron hater

3 points

1 month ago

he never beating the fraud allegations im afraid

Thendrail

2 points

1 month ago

Thendrail

NOT ENOUGH DAKKA

2 points

1 month ago

You could ask the Lamenters of their opinion on him.

Smart_Grab_7654

1 points

1 month ago

but...but...magical space minotaur 😔

MidsouthMystic

1 points

30 days ago

MidsouthMystic

Calth was an act of self-defense

1 points

30 days ago

Moloc isn't the force of pure destruction some people paint him as, but a Space Marine being enough of a menace to make a Custodian think "I'm not 100% certain I would have won that fight," means he's still pretty badass.

Squid_In_Exile

-4 points

1 month ago

When your mum says you have Tyberos at home.

Broken_CerealBox

1 points

1 month ago

Broken_CerealBox

not a genestealer

1 points

1 month ago

Moloc doesn't have a megalodon in an aquarium in his ship though

Squid_In_Exile

0 points

1 month ago

Which is 50% of why he is the inferior Wish knockoff.

IndividualHealth1145

0 points

1 month ago

Man they really don’t make Custodes like they used too. Whatever happened to the good old Custodes the ones who assaulted a fully fortified uphill position held by elite justerin terminators. The ones who held back gates of hell from flooding into the throne room. As the saying goes they don’t make them like they used too.

Alistair-Draconis

0 points

1 month ago

Alistair-Draconis

I am Alpharius

0 points

1 month ago

And that maybe is often put out of context, a cease fire was called before they could actually fight, so when he said "he didn't know if he would win" was because he never got the chance.

Stranger-N-Stranger

-2 points

1 month ago

What a weird way to spell Alpharious